North Korea, chicken or egg?

[desura]

How much responsibility do we in the USA hold for the North Korean situation? Like, could you make the argument that North Korea is the militarized state it is because of the legitimate threat we pose to it? Why not sign a peace treaty with them? Why haven't we been able to mend relations with NK like we opened up China in the 70's? Like, any Asian state which felt itself under threat would end up looking like...North Korea, no?

 

[glenn1]

I think North Korea needs a hell of a lot more than a peace treaty with the U.S. to return to more semi-sane. A comp would be Burma which is in the same league of nuttiness as North Korea and they aren't under serious 'threat' from the U.S. Some places are just going to be run by cult of personality dictators whose stupid ideas and brutality crush their people, whether it's Zimbabwe or North Korea it's a stretch to say the U.S. has much to do with causing it and it's arguable what role we could have in ending it. Last time we tried to "assist" with a situation like that we got 100k plus dead civilians in Iraq and not much better government there in the aftermath.

 

[pcgeek11]

IMO China is more responsible for the state of North Korea than anyone else. If they so desired they could take care of the continued insanity.

 

[Zaap]

How much responsibility do we in the USA hold for the North Korean situation? Like, could you make the argument that North Korea is the militarized state it is because of the legitimate threat we pose to it?

Like, this is a supremely silly question.

There's no threat posed to North Korea by the United States or the rest of the world- the US and the rest of the world would be perfectly happy if North Korea looked like another place in the area.. it's called SOUTH Korea. Ever hear of it? One of the wealthiest nations on the planet. NK is under 'threat' of being a modern, wealthy nation? The horrors.

Read some damn history. NK is a product of shitty ideology, not a threat by the US. What kind of goofy world view and no knowledge of history produces even the pondering of such nonsense?

FACTS:
North Korea was the aggressor toward the south, not the other way around. NK *remains* the aggressor toward SK far more than the other way around. Somehow being under threat from NK (with one of the largest militaries on earth) doesn't make it a no brainer for the people of SK to become impoverished hermits.

The United States was at war with Japan. You know, 'like ANY Asian state'? What did the big bad US do to Japan after WWII? Enslave the population, murder their emperor and salt the earth, reducing them to an impoverished slave state?

No?

Wait, but we're so evil. Surely since we do such terrible things to our enemies, why, we must go ALL OUT on nations we didn't even have a beef with.

Obviously South Korea has been SO under 'threat' by our evil influence, that as per your amazingly insightful question, why sure. There's NOTHING on earth the US has better to do than pick on North Korea, and it's so clearly our goal to torment them and reduce them to a slave state- so OF COURSE, yeah sure, the crackpot regime there is absolutely legit because of this grave threat we pose.

Makes total sense...

...IF one is on crack, and just ignores the reality of ACTUAL Asian states we've been at war with in the region, and the ACTUAL example of the terrible fate of NK's southern neighbor state.

Like, any Asian state which felt itself under threat would end up looking like...North Korea, no?

Yes of course. Like Japan. Like South Korea. Hell, even Vietnam is much better off today after shaking off the REAL problem you're ignoring for some reason. It's called communism. States that actually bought into it hook line and sinker- fail. Because it's a shitty, stupid, unworkable ideology.

There's a weird strain of absolute American superiority in the nonsense of 'blame the US for everything' arguments. The tyrants that rule NK are responsible for what they have done to wreck and ruin their country. NO ONE ELSE- not the 'superior US' that somehow has the power to mold and shape what everyone else on the planet does. People- regimes, those that follow failed unworkable ideologies are ultimately responsible for their own shitty fates.

 

[desura]

Like, this is a supremely silly question.

There's no threat posed to North Korea by the United States or the rest of the world- the US and the rest of the world would be perfectly happy if North Korea looked like another place in the area.. it's called SOUTH Korea. Ever hear of it? One of the wealthiest nations on the planet. NK is under 'threat' of being a modern, wealthy nation? The horrors.

Read some damn history. NK is a product of shitty ideology, not a threat by the US. What kind of goofy world view and no knowledge of history produces even the pondering of such nonsense?

FACTS:
North Korea was the aggressor toward the south, not the other way around. NK *remains* the aggressor toward SK far more than the other way around. Somehow being under threat from NK (with one of the largest militaries on earth) doesn't make it a no brainer for the people of SK to become impoverished hermits.

The United States was at war with Japan. You know, 'like ANY Asian state'? What did the big bad US do to Japan after WWII? Enslave the population, murder their emperor and salt the earth, reducing them to an impoverished slave state?

No?

Wait, but we're so evil. Surely since we do such terrible things to our enemies, why, we must go ALL OUT on nations we didn't even have a beef with.

Obviously South Korea has been SO under 'threat' by our evil influence, that as per your amazingly insightful question, why sure. There's NOTHING on earth the US has better to do than pick on North Korea, and it's so clearly our goal to torment them and reduce them to a slave state- so OF COURSE, yeah sure, the crackpot regime there is absolutely legit because of this grave threat we pose.

Makes total sense...

...IF one is on crack, and just ignores the reality of ACTUAL Asian states we've been at war with in the region, and the ACTUAL example of the terrible fate of NK's southern neighbor state.





Yes of course. Like Japan. Like South Korea. Hell, even Vietnam is much better off today after shaking off the REAL problem you're ignoring for some reason. It's called communism. States that actually bought into it hook line and sinker- fail. Because it's a shitty, stupid, unworkable ideology.

There's a weird strain of absolute American superiority in the nonsense of 'blame the US for everything' arguments. The tyrants that rule NK are responsible for what they have done to wreck and ruin their country. NO ONE ELSE- not the 'superior US' that somehow has the power to mold and shape what everyone else on the planet does. People- regimes, those that follow failed unworkable ideologies are ultimately responsible for their own shitty fates.

I wonder if you would make a similar statement regarding our involvement in the Muslim world?

 

[Meghan54]

I wonder if you would make a similar statement regarding our involvement in the Muslim world?

Why bring this up? Can't even stay on topic in your own threads?

 

[desura]

Why bring this up? Can't even stay on topic in your own threads?

I guess such a comparison makes you uncomfortable.

 

[DrunkenSano]

The fault mainly lies with China and Russia, or the old Russia back when the Korean War happened. The US became SK's ally after the war and supported them fully in their development. China and Russia were supposed to support NK after the war, but neither country did, which resulted in the stark difference between the north and the south today. It was certainly harder for the north because neither China or Russia wanted to dump resources into a country that could be used against them by the other group. China and Russia were not friends, even if both countries were Communist.

 

[Meghan54]

I guess such a comparison makes you uncomfortable.

No, it's about a couple of other things, like you crying about a topic getting taken off topic (something you're doing here to your own thread), and like you trying to derail a thread...you've done both frequently.

I must confess, though, I'm still confused why you brought up Islam in a thread about North Korea.....

 

[pauldun170]

Remember that time when we signed the peace treaty to end the Korean war? (That's a joke...you shouldn't have to go hopping on google or wiki pedia to know that we are technically still at war with North Korea)

Remember when North Korea said "Um...when we peacefully reunify with South Korea, can some of us retain a leadership position in the reunified state?" and South Korea said "lol..." and the 30K thouosand US troops all said "Come watch our military excersises bruh...gonna be sweet!!!".

Remember when North Korea said "Mr United States sir? Can we formally end the Korean war and can you stop pointing all your guns at us?" and then we said "Sure we'll sign your peace treaty, but you first have to get rid of all your military capability (United states and South Korea proceed to break out laughing) and before you say anything, the United Sates isn't going to leave South Korea because we really like it here and we won't really promise that we are not going to attack you while you are signing your peace treaty. Finally, peace treaty isn't going to happen unless you give us the only card you have. That old POS nuclear arsenal that doesn't really work properly."

(It's at this point that Japan said "Dude. That sentence was really fucking long. You could have summarized that with like 2 kanji. 3 at most.)

Just so noone gets the wrong idea, North Korea dug its own hole.
We are just the jerks that refuse to offer a rope and like to piss in the hole

 

[desura]

No, it's about a couple of other things, like you crying about a topic getting taken off topic (something you're doing here to your own thread), and like you trying to derail a thread...you've done both frequently.

I must confess, though, I'm still confused why you brought up Islam in a thread about North Korea.....

Because it is comparable, and because the post was big on attitude but very light on specifics. Ironically, he made an argument I've made many times. Hey, I'm just saying be logically consistent. If you're going to argue that they deserve everything that's coming to them, you have to say the same for your favorite oppressed downtrodden that you constantly analogize to black americans.

 

[desura]

Like this article makes an interesting argument.

https://medium.com/defiant/a-lot-of-what-you-know-about-north-korea-is-racist-nonsense-a625256b51cc

Everyone should have a healthy skepticism of the MIC bureaucracy and Washington consensus.

 

[fskimospy]

Like this article makes an interesting argument.

https://medium.com/defiant/a-lot-of-what-you-know-about-north-korea-is-racist-nonsense-a625256b51cc

Everyone should have a healthy skepticism of the MIC bureaucracy and Washington consensus.

Whoever wrote that needs to have their head examined because that is some of the most laughably dumb shit I have ever read about North Korea.

1) Tries to say that the US is more militaristic than North Korea because we have military jet flyovers at sporting events despite North Korea literally having a policy that says their military comes before everything else and the fact that military spending consumes about 25% of their GDP, which is more than double the next closest country on earth.

2) Claims that North Korea isn't a threat because they can probably only currently nuke South Korea and maybe Japan. This is a ludicrous idea on its face.

3) Claims that the US derides North Korea as 'crazy' and how unfounded this is. I'm unaware of anyone who thinks North Korea acts 'crazy', they act perfectly rationally assuming their goal is regime survival.

4) Somehow claim that North Korea is also not 'aggressive' despite their previous invasion of the south and their repeated statements about how they can't wait to destroy South Korea, Japan, and the US.

I get the sense that the guy who wrote that article knows basically nothing about North Korea and is just regurgitating nonsense he picked up from other conspiracy minded websites.

 

[Meghan54]

Whoever wrote that needs to have their head examined because that is some of the most laughably dumb shit I have ever read about North Korea.

1) Tries to say that the US is more militaristic than North Korea because we have military jet flyovers at sporting events despite North Korea literally having a policy that says their military comes before everything else and the fact that military spending consumes about 25% of their GDP, which is more than double the next closest country on earth.

2) Claims that North Korea isn't a threat because they can probably only currently nuke South Korea and maybe Japan. This is a ludicrous idea on its face.

3) Claims that the US derides North Korea as 'crazy' and how unfounded this is. I'm unaware of anyone who thinks North Korea acts 'crazy', they act perfectly rationally assuming their goal is regime survival.

4) Somehow claim that North Korea is also not 'aggressive' despite their previous invasion of the south and their repeated statements about how they can't wait to destroy South Korea, Japan, and the US.

I get the sense that the guy who wrote that article knows basically nothing about North Korea and is just regurgitating nonsense he picked up from other conspiracy minded websites.

What else did you expect from desura? Cogent, insightful discourse? LOL!

 

[glenn1]

I wonder if you would make a similar statement regarding our involvement in the Muslim world?

The Muslim world is a big place and depending on the country we've had varied levels of intervention there from extreme to pretty much none at all. In that universe of states you have everything from relatively prosperous and semi-secular nations like Indonesia all the way through failed state hellholes like Yemen. In spite of that none of them really exhibit the world class nuttiness, aggression, and utter dystopia of North Korea although some of them have a feature or two like a weird ideology, cult of personality leader, or external boogeymen enemy. None really tick each and every single box of insanity and dysfunction the way North Korea does though. North Korea the kind of place where even refugees from majority Muslim nation Somalia would look at and say "no thanks, I'd rather stay here and take my chances."

 

[Jaskalas]

Just so noone gets the wrong idea, North Korea dug its own hole.
We are just the jerks that refuse to offer a rope and like to piss in the hole

This is quite informative.

It's our sensitivity to the nuclear issue that drives us "pissing in the hole". If that did not exist we'd be much more amicable to solutions rather than provocative rhetoric.

 

[nakedfrog]

No, it's about a couple of other things, like you crying about a topic getting taken off topic (something you're doing here to your own thread), and like you trying to derail a thread...you've done both frequently.

I must confess, though, I'm still confused why you brought up Islam in a thread about North Korea.....

I guess maybe he figures he hasn't crossed the "blatant troll" threshold far enough for it to be instantly recognized by everyone, so there's still room for improvement.