North Carolina to scientists: No you can't use exponential models

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Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Actually this might fail a rational basis review and would therefore be unconstitutional. It's difficult for me to see why prohibiting certain types of math could ever be considered a rational act.

I also have no idea how you were able to bring this back to health care.

The latter is easy. Uninformed legislation of complex and broad reaching isn't rational.

Now where does math have Constitutional protections? Certainly politicians abuse it constantly coming up with creative estimates.

I contend that both acts are foolish. Some only see ignorance acceptable in one case.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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That's why the health care law was written using the work of thousands of experts over decades of intensive study. I'm unaware of such an incredibly large amount of expert work being put into this law, but if you know of some can you link it?

That's interesting. What specific work did it commission for this purpose in advance of legislation or did they pick up a book of papers and pick what they liked?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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That's interesting. What specific work did it commission for this purpose in advance of legislation or did they pick up a book of papers and pick what they liked?

Isn't it interesting? The more you know, right?

It would truly have been a uniquely bizarre and incompetent legislative body if they had commissioned a number of studies that would likely have taken years to complete instead of just using the large body of work and the huge repository of expert input that already existed.

As for them picking what they liked and what they didn't, that would have been just as easy to do when commissioning a new study as it would be with using the already existing literature.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Isn't it interesting? The more you know, right?

It would truly have been a uniquely bizarre and incompetent legislative body if they had commissioned a number of studies that would likely have taken years to complete instead of just using the large body of work and the huge repository of expert input that already existed.

As for them picking what they liked and what they didn't, that would have been just as easy to do when commissioning a new study as it would be with using the already existing literature.

It does save time to used canned reports that fit whatever one wants. It certainly worked for WMDs in Iraq, another large body of experts worked on that as well.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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It does save time to used canned reports that fit whatever one wants. It certainly worked for WMDs in Iraq, another large body of experts worked on that as well.

Wow, that was pathetic. No one who knew the first thing about the nature of intelligence work would ever be so foolish as to try and make that comparison. (not to mention that Iraq WMD claims weren't based on canned reports)
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
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It does save time to used canned reports that fit whatever one wants. It certainly worked for WMDs in Iraq, another large body of experts worked on that as well.

Actually, there was quite a bit of doubt about Iraq by the experts. It was the political leaders (George W. Bush and his underlings) that applied political pressure to distort the data. It's basically the same thing here.
 

MooseNSquirrel

Platinum Member
Feb 26, 2009
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Thanks! So this is the part people are complaining about?


http://www.nccoast.org/uploads/documents/CRO/2012-5/SLR-bill.pdf

Given this info:

topexjason2004.jpg


And that the measurements since then are linear as well. Also, you have this:


http://www.nipccreport.org/articles/2010/sep/03sep2010a7.html

I would say the law is simply being written to prevent the Church of the AGW from forcing bad science onto the people again. Basically, it is like passing a law saying they cannot teach Creationism in Science Class. This law will keep bad science from being used to lie to people.

Nothing to see here folks. Move along, move along.


Your personal belief is not a rationale for determining what is or isnt good science.

Nor is silly name calling.

Science is a self-correcting mechanism; ideology however, is not. What you have determined a priori colours your "belief", not the actual science.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
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We cant predict if it will rain this weekend, so why trust some model for global warming? You might ask yourself why the Myans used such a long calendar with very long cycles??? Maybe their science was better than ours.
 

jhbball

Platinum Member
Mar 20, 2002
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We cant predict if it will rain this weekend, so why trust some model for global warming? You might ask yourself why the Myans used such a long calendar with very long cycles??? Maybe their science was better than ours.

ladies and gentleman: the republican party.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,525
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Forgive my ignorance, but why would an exponentially accelerating model be appropriate? Based on simple math the intuitive answer is that an exponentially decelerating answer is correct.

The surface are of a sphere, which roughly approximates the Earth, is 4πr^2. As sea level rises the surface area of the sphere expands exponentially due to the increased radius. As a result it takes ever-increasing volumes of water to maintain a linear rate of surface area expansion.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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Forgive my ignorance, but why would an exponentially accelerating model be appropriate? Based on simple math the intuitive answer is that an exponentially decelerating answer is correct.

The surface are of a sphere, which roughly approximates the Earth, is 4πr^2. As sea level rises the surface area of the sphere expands exponentially due to the increased radius. As a result it takes ever-increasing volumes of water to maintain a linear rate of surface area expansion.

Uhh, no it doesn't. Math fail. You don't know what "exponentially" means. Furthermore, "surface area expansion" has little to do with this problem.

But, I'll entertain you.
Let's assume that the volume of ice that's melting is doing so at a constant rate. Thus, the rate of change of volume with respect to time (dV/dt) is a constant. Since V= 4/3 pi r^3, dV/dt = 4pi r² dr/dt = k
So, dr/dt = k/(4pi r²). SA = 4 pi r². dSA/dt = 8 pi r dr/dt. Substituting again, dSA/dt = rate of change of surface area = 8 pi r ( k/(4pi r²) ) = 2k/r. Does that look like an exponential function to you? It doesn't look like one to me. :)
 

Paul98

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2010
3,732
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Read my post above please.
Also, please note that these people aren't running the country, they're running a state, and it may very well make sense for them to do this. I don't know if that's the case, but I like to know at least most of a story before I jump on the band wagon. The article in question is so one sided as to be ludicrous, so of course there has to be a great deal that wasn't mentioned.

I may very well be foaming at the mouth myself when all of the story comes out, but until then I'll restrain myself and see what other information comes to light.

None of what you said before is even remotely reasonable. If it's only for state employees, or people planning, or anything at all it's idiotic.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,037
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Uhh, no it doesn't. Math fail. You don't know what "exponentially" means. Furthermore, "surface area expansion" has little to do with this problem.

But, I'll entertain you.
Let's assume that the volume of ice that's melting is doing so at a constant rate. Thus, the rate of change of volume with respect to time (dV/dt) is a constant. Since V= 4/3 pi r^3, dV/dt = 4pi r² dr/dt = k
So, dr/dt = k/(4pi r²). SA = 4 pi r². dSA/dt = 8 pi r dr/dt. Substituting again, dSA/dt = rate of change of surface area = 8 pi r ( k/(4pi r²) ) = 2k/r. Does that look like an exponential function to you? It doesn't look like one to me. :)

you are my favorite goat herding mathematician :eek:
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
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What law are they violating? That they cannot legislate what they feel is the public interest or that they must have an informed opinion commensurate to the topic legislated? Indeed is not illegal and in fact has been effectively promoted by some. There is no legal requirement to have an informed opinion to legislate.

So legislating this in public interest is ok. But banning soda larger than 16 oz in public interest is bad?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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Actually, there was quite a bit of doubt about Iraq by the experts. It was the political leaders (George W. Bush and his underlings) that applied political pressure to distort the data. It's basically the same thing here.

There certainly was. My point however was that "research was done" and the statements which were true weren't timely, and those which were timely weren't true. That did not however stop pro war factions from using them. Likewise it is true that there is a huge collection of facts available, but if I set before someone not schooled in physics a technically complex book on quantum physics, I'd say it's fairly useless.

My point in bring up health care is that it's generally less well understood than a simple concept like exponentials, yet ignorance of one is abhorred and the other embraced. That's not the intent I'm sure, but there is a fundamental disconnect between what is said here and those who practice. We're scratching our heads about how to effectively address some things and despite our expertise we're unsure, yet those who have virtually no insight allegedly have the answers.

Understand I'm not against reform, in fact I'm for more than almost anyone here, but it's more about the health of the system itself. What seems to be poorly understood is that the system as imperfect as it is works, but not as well and adaptability as needed. We have near and long term changes in demographics which will break any system, here or abroad. Among things which must be dealt with are allocation of resources, how to get qualified people with the right skills into the right place at the right time, to eliminate duplication of resources and so on. Considering that these directly affect costs they cannot be divorced from them.

IMO we had a pivotal moment when health care became a serious topic of debate, but as with 9/11 we squandered it. Why? Because what was needed was not what was sought, nor even known much less understood. Medicine isn't bean counting, but bean counting affects it.

I've reached the conclusion that our world has become so complex that legislators are overwhelmed by it all. As they do not understand it, perhaps they lock arm in party arm to keep from being swept away. If one endures the storm one must be seen to be worthy.

Rather than play the game of "oh yeah I get that. Trust me", I think it's time that we have a large body of experts who can work together to get Congress going in the right direction. No one would suggest that companies build complex machinery designed by board members so why should we do the equivalent with government? Assured ignorance isn't a real answer.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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So legislating this in public interest is ok. But banning soda larger than 16 oz in public interest is bad?

What about 12 oz? How about bicycles? Skateboards? Boating? If 16 oz is reason enough then there isn't much that can't be banned. Bring back Prohibition. In fact as has been pointed out there seems to be no mechanism for restraint other than restraint itself, and that's losing out.
 

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
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What about 12 oz? How about bicycles? Skateboards? Boating? If 16 oz is reason enough then there isn't much that can't be banned. Bring back Prohibition. In fact as has been pointed out there seems to be no mechanism for restraint other than restraint itself, and that's losing out.

Sure if it is for public interest it should be ok. According to your logic.