'Nontheists' Add 'Winter Solstice' Sign to Religious Displays

[Riprorin]

'Nontheists' Add 'Winter Solstice' Sign to Religious Displays

By Susan Jones
CNSNews.com Morning Editor
December 08, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - As the Wisconsin State Capitol decks the halls with season's greetings, a "Winter Solstice" sign stands there to tell people, "There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell."

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said this marks the ninth year it has placed its "Winter Solstice" sign in the first-floor rotunda in Madison.

The sign carries the following message composed by the group's founder, Anne Nicol Gaylor:

"At this season of
the Winter Solstice
may reason prevail.

"There are no gods,
no devils, no angels,
no heaven or hell.
There is only
our natural world.

"Religion is but
myth and superstition
that hardens hearts
and enslaves minds."

According to the Freedom From Religion Foundation, the back of the sign reads, "State/Church: Keep Them Separate." And a taped-on caveat reminds readers, "Thou shalt not steal."

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said it posts its sign in an effort to balance the annual Nativity pageant and other "displays of religion" that fill the State Capitol in December.

"The nonreligious are 14 percent of the U.S. population," Annie Laurie Gaylor said in a message on her group's website. "If religious activities are going to take place in the Capitol, then there should be representation of the views of Wisconsin's nonreligious citizens as well."

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said its sign "reminds citizens of the real reason for the season" -- the Dec. 21 Winter Solstice, which is the shortest and darkest day of the year.

The group says the Winter Solstice has been celebrated in the Northern Hemisphere for a millenia by festivals of light, decorations of evergreens, gift exchanges, parties and feasts.

"Freethinkers don't mind sharing the season with Christians, but we think the natural origins of many of the customs of this time of year should be acknowledged," Gaylor said.

Link

Cool. Whatever your floats your boat!

 

[judasmachine]

silly place to put it as i don't think any government building is a showhouse for any 'group.' but i don't have a problem one with her message. But if they use public funds to put up nativity scenes then it's only fair. get used to it. there will soon be stars of david, star and cresents, multi armed hindi gods, pentagrams, buddhas, green ladies, etc. right next to you nativity scenes, ten commandments, etc.

 

[yllus]

Seems kind of pointedly anti-religion and a little hostile for that, but I suppose after the Crusades and all we nontheists are entitled. 😛

 

[nageov3t]

I'm celebrating winter solstice / yule instead of Christmas this year 🙂

my roommate is pagan and it was the only way to get him into the holiday spirit. hehe.

 

[HombrePequeno]

I definitely don't think that should be there. That's just as much BS as putting the 10 Commandments in there. Government property is not a place to spread your religion or lack thereof.

 

[miketheidiot]

:thumbsdown: This in almost as bad a a nativity scene.

 

[Kadarin]

Religion is but
myth and superstition
that hardens hearts
and enslaves minds

Now that is truth.

 

[Red Dawn]

This should only be allowed if other opinions regaeding religion are allowed to be displayed such as the Nativity Scene.

 

[GoPackGo]

By practice, atheism is a religion, HAHAHAHAHAH!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
By practice, atheism is a religion, HAHAHAHAHAH!

How's that?

 

[kage69]

By practice, atheism is a religion, HAHAHAHAHAH!

Uh, what?

Maybe you could help us with that by pointing us towards atheistic scriptures, the atheistic clergy, and what is an acceptable atheistic tithe. How exactly do atheists practice this "religion?"

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: kage69

By practice, atheism is a religion, HAHAHAHAHAH!

Uh, what?

Maybe you could help us with that by pointing us towards atheistic scriptures, the atheistic clergy, and what is an acceptable atheistic tithe. How exactly do atheists practice this "religion?"

Go To This Website

They are the leading atheism group.

They have membership
They take donations
They have leadership
They have a mantra
They are tax exempt
They are non-profit
They have a call to action
They have a desire to "convert"

Need I go on?

 

[kage69]

They have membership

A fee for initial membership, that's not a tithe. They're closer to Blockbuster than the church, sorry.

They take donations

What foundation doesn't? I hear it costs money to file lawsuits.

They have leadership

What foundation doesn't? Is there even such a thing as a legal foundtion without leadership?

They have a mantra

I'm sorry, this is relevent why exactly? I'm a little confused over how the presence of "protecting the constitutional principle of the seperation of state and church" somehow indicates organized religion.

They are tax exempt

So are the Salvation Army and Red Cross - that is not a unique qualifying aspect of religious institutions, sorry.

They are non-profit

Yeah, kinda required for the above. They really need to get on the wagon and start making loads of money through real estate ventures...maybe the Cats can give them some tips?

They have a call to action

As all foundations do, and as outlined in their slogan. Is a call to action now somehow the same as a religious mandate or collection of tenants?

They have a desire to "convert"

What brought you to this conclusion? They certainly have a desire to protect Americans from the religious sensibilities of others, and are not afraid to file lawsuits for just that purpose. I looked through their page and aside from info on how to join, I didn't see anything even close to the kinds of recruitment actual churchs resort to. How many times have those darn atheists knocked on your door wanted to discuss free thought and the seperation of state and church? Now think of how many times Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc have come calling. For me, that ratio is roughly, oh let me think..... 0 to 45-50?

Need I go on?

Please do! (after you've clarified your earlier thoughts anyway...)

 

[judasmachine]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo
By practice, atheism is a religion, HAHAHAHAHAH!

I am either atheist or agnostic, to be honest I'm not sure. But I have an absence of faith, and I don't regularally practice any form of devotion to science, nature, anything. I don't care to start either. How is this apathy a religious practice? Nor do I have an urge to convert. You are free to practice your silly religion as much as I am free not too. Live and let live man.

And you being supportive of religion will see religion anywhere you look. I being without religion will not see religion anywhere I look. So just relax, go to church on sunday, and keep your mouth shut when you pray elsewhere.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: kage69

They have membership

A fee for initial membership, that's not a tithe. They're closer to Blockbuster than the church, sorry.

They take donations

What foundations doesn't? I hear it costs money to file lawsuits.

They have leadership

What foundation doesn't? Is there even such a thing as a legal foundtion without leadership?

They have a mantra

I'm sorry, this is relevent why exactly? I'm a little confused over how the presence of "protecting the constitutional principle of the seperation of state and church" somehow indicates organized religion.

They are tax exempt

So is the Salvation Army and Red Cross - this is not a unique qualifying aspect of religious institutions, sorry.

They are non-profit

Yeah, kinda required for the above. They really need to get on the wagon and start making loads of money through real estate ventures...

They have a call to action

As all foundations do, and as outlined in their slogan. Is a call to action now somehow the same as a religious mandate or collection of tenants?

They have a desire to "convert"

What brought you to this conclusion? They certainly have a desire to protect Americans from the religious sensibilities of others, and are not afraid to file lawsuits for just that purpose. I looked through their page and aside from info on how to join, I didn't see anything even close to the kinds of recruitment actual churchs resort to. How many times have those darn atheists knocked on your door wanted to discuss free thought and the seperation of state and church? Now think of how many times Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc have come calling. For me, that ratio is roughly, oh let me think..... 0 to 45-50?

Need I go on?

Please do! (after you've clarified your earlier thoughts anyway...)

Lets look at meaning 4 of Religion

Lets look at meaning 2b and 3 of Faith

Lets look at meaning 1b of Ardor

Therefore, by definition, they are a religion.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: kage69

They have membership

A fee for initial membership, that's not a tithe. They're closer to Blockbuster than the church, sorry.

They take donations

What foundations doesn't? I hear it costs money to file lawsuits.

They have leadership

What foundation doesn't? Is there even such a thing as a legal foundtion without leadership?

They have a mantra

I'm sorry, this is relevent why exactly? I'm a little confused over how the presence of "protecting the constitutional principle of the seperation of state and church" somehow indicates organized religion.

They are tax exempt

So is the Salvation Army and Red Cross - this is not a unique qualifying aspect of religious institutions, sorry.

They are non-profit

Yeah, kinda required for the above. They really need to get on the wagon and start making loads of money through real estate ventures...

They have a call to action

As all foundations do, and as outlined in their slogan. Is a call to action now somehow the same as a religious mandate or collection of tenants?

They have a desire to "convert"

What brought you to this conclusion? They certainly have a desire to protect Americans from the religious sensibilities of others, and are not afraid to file lawsuits for just that purpose. I looked through their page and aside from info on how to join, I didn't see anything even close to the kinds of recruitment actual churchs resort to. How many times have those darn atheists knocked on your door wanted to discuss free thought and the seperation of state and church? Now think of how many times Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc have come calling. For me, that ratio is roughly, oh let me think..... 0 to 45-50?

Need I go on?

Please do! (after you've clarified your earlier thoughts anyway...)

Lets look at meaning 4 of Religion

Lets look at meaning 2b and 3 of Faith

Lets look at meaning 1b of Ardor

Therefore, by definition, they are a religion.

You are reaching at best.

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: GoPackGo

Originally posted by: kage69

They have membership

A fee for initial membership, that's not a tithe. They're closer to Blockbuster than the church, sorry.

They take donations

What foundations doesn't? I hear it costs money to file lawsuits.

They have leadership

What foundation doesn't? Is there even such a thing as a legal foundtion without leadership?

They have a mantra

I'm sorry, this is relevent why exactly? I'm a little confused over how the presence of "protecting the constitutional principle of the seperation of state and church" somehow indicates organized religion.

They are tax exempt

So is the Salvation Army and Red Cross - this is not a unique qualifying aspect of religious institutions, sorry.

They are non-profit

Yeah, kinda required for the above. They really need to get on the wagon and start making loads of money through real estate ventures...

They have a call to action

As all foundations do, and as outlined in their slogan. Is a call to action now somehow the same as a religious mandate or collection of tenants?

They have a desire to "convert"

What brought you to this conclusion? They certainly have a desire to protect Americans from the religious sensibilities of others, and are not afraid to file lawsuits for just that purpose. I looked through their page and aside from info on how to join, I didn't see anything even close to the kinds of recruitment actual churchs resort to. How many times have those darn atheists knocked on your door wanted to discuss free thought and the seperation of state and church? Now think of how many times Baptists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc have come calling. For me, that ratio is roughly, oh let me think..... 0 to 45-50?

Need I go on?

Please do! (after you've clarified your earlier thoughts anyway...)

Lets look at meaning 4 of Religion

Lets look at meaning 2b and 3 of Faith

Lets look at meaning 1b of Ardor

Therefore, by definition, they are a religion.

You are reaching at best.

Am I?

BTW, how often has the church of Satan stopped by?

or

These Folks??

 

[rahvin]

The Freedom From Religion Foundation said it posts its sign in an effort to balance the annual Nativity pageant and other "displays of religion" that fill the State Capitol in December.

People, as a firm believer in seperation of church/state I see no problem with this because the sign is included in other religious displays on government property. As long as the government doesn't favor one religion or another I have no problem with a holiday "festival" where any group that wants to participate is allowed. If the satanists and atheists are allowed to put up displays along with the nativity scene there is no breach in rules or conscience.

 

[kage69]

You are reaching at best.

...and you didn't address my points at all either. Those links do nothing to aid your attempt to paint this foundation as a religious instititution btw. Did you even read the definitions?

 

[GoPackGo]

Originally posted by: kage69

You are reaching at best.

...and you didn't address my points at all either. Those links do nothing to aid your attempt to paint this foundation as a religious instititution btw. Did you even read the definitions?

Yeah I read the definitions, as I pointed you to them and which definition.

Ok I will address you points.

1. Blockbuster doesnt sue to have 10 commandments removed nor do they have a display in the capital

2. Why use the word donations...perhaps give a gift...or perhaps they should apply for grants.

3. What religion doesn't have leadership?

4. Non Profit and Tax Exempt are supporting evidence

5. What is the Foundation's purpose?
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., is an educational group working for the separation of state and church. Its purposes, as stated in its bylaws, are to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism.


6. What does the Foundation do?
Files lawsuits!
Publishes the only freethought newspaper in the United States, Freethought Today
Sponsors annual high school and college freethought essay competitions with cash awards
Conducts lively, annual national conventions, honoring an annual "Freethinker of the Year" for state/church activism, a "Freethought Heroine" and student activists
Bestows "The Emperor Has No Clothes" Award and statuette to public figures for plain speaking on religion
Promotes freedom from religion with educational products, bumperstickers, music CDs, winter solstice greeting cards and literature
Publishes useful freethought books
Provides speakers for events and debates
Established a freethought book collection at the University of Wisconsin Memorial Library as well as a 2,000-volume office collection

 

[kage69]

1. Blockbuster doesnt sue to have 10 commandments removed nor do they have a display in the capital

Blockbuster's legal pursuits are not in contention. This is irrelevent, and the context in which you presented it is faulty. This organization would not dare attempt to remove the 10 Commandments from anywhere where they belonged (i.e. places of worship - protected by the Constitution). The 10 Commandments have no business being in any federal or state buildings though, so legal action on this foundations part is understandable, and to be applauded.

2. Why use the word donations...perhaps give a gift...or perhaps they should apply for grants.

Because that's what it's called when someone makes a contribution to an entity such as this, a donation. I'm puzzled why the wording of it concerns you. Foundations who are non-profit and engage in litigation will happily accept donations. This is different than the 'love offerings' churchs appeal for every Sunday.

3. What religion doesn't have leadership?

The non-organized ones, but again - relevence? The Native Americans didn't (or don't) have a structure of leadership in their beliefs (unless you count medicine men, shaman, etc). Wicca, Santeria, etc etc...

4. Non Profit and Tax Exempt are supporting evidence

I guess that's where we disagree. I suppose with agendas, slogans, non-profit status and tax exemption we can consider The Salvation Army and Red Cross religions now too?

What is the Foundation's purpose?
The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Inc., is an educational group working for the separation of state and church. Its purposes, as stated in its bylaws, are to promote the constitutional principle of separation of state and church, and to educate the public on matters relating to nontheism.

Yeah, I read the website. Is this supposed to be an answer? Were they not promoting constitutional principles and attempting to 'educate' the public on some kind of religious doctrine (you know, rules, customs, history, etc) then you would have something...

6. What does the Foundation do? (rest of website text snipped)

In case you haven't figured it out yet, simply quoting the websites text doesn't constitute a cogent reply. For that matter, cherry picking what you will reply to doesn't help your argument either. I posed 8 replies, and I get 4 weak ones and 2 quotes from a website. Uhhhhhh....

As for your definitions:

Religion - the state of religious, the service and worship of God or the supernatural, commitment and devotion to a religious faith or observance, a personalized set of institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices. Archaic: scrupulous conformity. A cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith.

Of all that, only the last entry even comes close to this foundation and atheism, and even then it's iffy. But really, let's see - this foundation isn't in the service or conducting worship of god or a supernatural being, it doesn't observe rituals and attempt to instill commitment and devotion in a particular set of religious attitudes and practices. I do believe many atheist have faith in there not being any gods, and that they believe so with ardor. Does that make this all a religion? Of course not.

Faith - I'll spare everyone the quotes, the link is there they can click on it. Just know that 'faith' isn't a term unique to the Western organized religions. I have faith that my cat will catch a mouse if it enters my house. That doesn't mean I worship him.

Ardor - See Faith. This quality is not automatically indicative of religion, nor is it exclusive to religion. A person working in this foundation could have a passion for his or her job, does that make them some kind of zealot in your eyes? What would personal convictions be if they weren't held with zeal?

 

[eigen]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Religion is but
myth and superstition
that hardens hearts
and enslaves minds

Now that is truth.

Thats is pretty awesome.

So what was the point of this post again OP.This inspired me to get a pentagram put up in a local govt building next holiday season.

 

[Taejin]

Man, I hate to agree with Rip but that's just wrong. I am all for neutrality - that kind of rabid anti-religiousness should not be condoned.

 

[Genx87]

But but but it is the religious right who is on the attack!

 

[eigen]

Originally posted by: Genx87
But but but it is the religious right who is on the attack!

You fight we fight..deal.