None of what Jefferson envisioned and everything Hamilton envisioned?

[Anarchist420]

Is it fair to say that the U.S. went so far Hamiltonian that the U.S. is essentially nothing Jefferson would be satisfied with?

We have a huge standing army, a Christian government, a powerful Executive, high taxes, an industrial economy, a central bank, almost no states rights, no right to secession, no right to revolution, a corporatist rather than capitalist economy, and an alliance with Britain.

 

[nick1985]

I think even Hamilton would cringe

 

[Anarchist420]

I just can't think of any way this nation is Jeffersonian, other than the fact that we no longer slavery. That's it.

 

[Anarchist420]

@nick: Why would hamilton cringe?

 

[nick1985]

Based on his works, its clear he wanted the power scale to tip in favor of the federal government, but good lord not like this. I dont think, based on what I have read, that he was in favor of a giant socialistic welfare state that tramples on the Constitution.

 

[JS80]

Everyone involved in creating the Constitution would be WTFing if they saw today's federal government.

 

[Linflas]

Christian government? We have Christians in the government but our government is actually more secular today than it was in the time of the Founders. Yes there is a central bank, we learned during the Revolution that militias could not win a war, a professional army was necessary, we have a service economy and the remains of an industrial economy, revolution is not something that can be granted nor revoked by any government, and I really don't see our relationship with Great Britain to be anything negative. Can't say you are wrong regarding your other points though.

 

[nonlnear]

Where is the ruling that there is no right of secession? I must have missed that one.

 

[Linflas]

Where is the ruling that there is no right of secession? I must have missed that one.

There was a little dustup between 1861-1865 that pretty much settled that question. You had to have heard about it.

 

[werepossum]

There was a little dustup between 1861-1865 that pretty much settled that question. You had to have heard about it.

LOL It was in all the papers . . .

The OP is dead on, but I for one wouldn't want to live in the founding America. My country has gone much farther socialist than I prefer, but I wouldn't prefer to live with no socialism either.

 

[nonlnear]

There was a little dustup between 1861-1865 that pretty much settled that question. You had to have heard about it.

Wars do not settle legal matters. You had a better shot if you cited Texas vs. White, but that leaves room for consent and rebellion. Williams vs. Bruffy casts a little more doubt on the "settled" nature of the matter. The plain truth is that secession is always a pragmatic question.

 

[Infohawk]

Leaving aside the fact that the cultural changes would freak out anyone from the revolutionary period, I have a feeling they would be happy politically about by our political status. They would recognize that for a multi-ethnic, urban, huge, and comparatively old government we are going strong. They were more educated on history than most of us probably are. They knew governments don't stick around for ever and that dictators tend to crop up in democracies.

 

[Linflas]

Wars do not settle legal matters. You had a better shot if you cited Texas vs. White, but that leaves room for consent and rebellion. Williams vs. Bruffy casts a little more doubt on the "settled" nature of the matter. The plain truth is that secession is always a pragmatic question.

Interesting, especially that 2nd one. In reality though secession in the case of my state cost us a large chunk of territory not to mention the amount of damage done to private citizens property and well being from 4 years of warfare that took place within the state. I would agree with you that when the Constitution was ratified not one of the original 13 states would have ratified it had they thought it was a one way street but the reality of the Civil War and 720,000 dead Americans would seem to have settled the question as a practical matter.

 

[Jaskalas]

LOL It was in all the papers . . .

The OP is dead on, but I for one wouldn't want to live in the founding America. My country has gone much farther socialist than I prefer, but I wouldn't prefer to live with no socialism either.

Pro-tip, you can provide for common wealth within your state without involving the federal government.

 

[SandEagle]

Everyone involved in creating the Constitution would be WTFing if they saw today's federal government.

War is peace
Freedom is slavery
Ignorance is Strength
Warming is Cooling
Unemployment is Work

 

[sandorski]

The Founding Fathers are like God, in the sense that they'd react almost always exactly as the People wondering about their reaction would react. If nothing else, I think what you can really Learn from them is that there has always been a wide swath of Opinion on what Should/Shouldn't be done.

Personally I think they'd be very impressed how Their Ideas changed the course of History. Y'all could be right, they might freak out, but it could be for reasons y'all wouldn't even consider, like Women Voting or No Slaves to do their bidding.

 

[Moonbeam]

Both Hamilton and Jefferson would be in awe of the tremendous nation we have become, a nation so much greater than any they could then have imagined. But they would likely kill themselves out of shame that they allowed slavery and didn't allow women to vote. While in their day they were extremest liberals, today they would be more backward than the six fingered South.

 

[woolfe9999]

Self-described Constitutionalists who worship the founding fathers and their "first principles" have very limited and selective knowledge of history. Our Bill of Rights, for example, was hardly even enforced until the 20th century. The ink was barely dry on the Constitution when the Adams administration and Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Acts, a series of laws which would be struck down by the current SCOTUS in 2 minutes flat.

- wolf

 

[kage69]

This thread is years too late.

Jefferson would have a problem with a unitary executive, not necessarily a powerful one. Likewise, the current PoTUS has pulled operational funding for the DoJ to effectively ignore certain state laws. States are also speaking for themselves on gay marriage, so the "no state rights" part doesn't fly.
If Jefferson were alive today and saw the world around us, he might forgive the large standing army part, IMO.

Btw, big deal, a friend of mine in Texas has it on good authority that Jefferson wasn't really a founding father and of no real importance. Nothing to see here!

 

[MotF Bane]

The idiocy regarding slavery in this thread is astounding.

 

[werepossum]

Pro-tip, you can provide for common wealth within your state without involving the federal government.

Yes, and if the Constitution were anything more than a dead curiosity in an expensive cabinet this is how it would be done.

 

[Siddhartha]

People roll out the founding fathers when it is convenient and ignore them when it isnt.

 

[Throckmorton]

You know how when you are in a plane and look down on the midwest and west, the land looks like a grid of squares and rectangles? You know why that is? Because Thomas Jefferson, in a stroke of genius, imposed a Socialist Nanny State Federal Government grid on the landscape.

 

[LegendKiller]

Everyone involved in creating the Constitution would be WTFing if they saw today's federal government.

I am certainly not an advocate for frequent and untried changes in laws and constitutions. I think moderate imperfections had better be borne with; because, when once known, we accommodate ourselves to them, and find practical means of correcting their ill effects. But I know also, that laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the same coat which fitted him when a boy, as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.


Some random fool said that once. Guess he would hate this society.

After all, he founded one of the largest public universities, advocated public education, incurred tons of debt to buy land, expanded the executive to do the same, sent soldiers overseas to make a minor US (and major international) trading route secure.

But what did he know?

 

[Triumph]

Jefferson was a borderline hypocrite. A walking contradiction is a more amenable term. I love the guy, but yeah, he definitely did not practice what he preached, what with the slave owning and Louisiana Purchase. The man himself was deep in debt in his later years. This book is a good read on the dichotomy of TJ.