Non-Z170 DDR4 overclock?

[jana519]

I am looking for a Mini-ITX motherboard which supports up to DDR4-3000 and isn't Z170. I only want overclocked memory for the iGPU. Pretty much every other feature of the Z170 chipset is irrelevant for me. Any suggestions?

 

[UsandThem]

Maybe someone here found a way to do it, but I'm unaware of running memory faster than DDR4 2133 speeds on a non-Z170 motherboard.

http://www.ukgamingcomputers.co.uk/h170-and-z170-difference-a-70.html

 

[jana519]

Thank you!

I was able to find some more info on this. It looks like there is something called XMP which supports higher memory speed profiles pre-programmed, featured on H110/H170/B150 motherboards.

The only thing is I can't verify which memory modules XMP works with which motherboards. I have to look more into this.

 

[UsandThem]

XMP is basically like overclocking. The official speed that Skylake supports is DDR4 2133, which is the JEDEC standard.

I looked at a few H170 boards from Asus, Gigabyte, and Asrock which state they support XMP. Looking at their manuals and detailed specs, they still list DDR4 2133 or slower as the speeds supported. I didn't come across any that stated it supported memory to run faster than DDR4 2133.

Maybe one is out there, but you'll have to look in the motherboard manual/detailed specs.

Here are the ones I looked at:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Fatal1ty H170 Performance/?cat=Specifications

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/H170-PRO-GAMING/specifications/

From their memory QVL:

*Due to Intel® chipset limitation, DDR4 2133 MHz and higher memory modules on XMP mode will run at the maximum transfer rate of DDR4 2133 Mhz

 

[VirtualLarry]

*Due to Intel® chipset limitation, DDR4 2133 MHz and higher memory modules on XMP mode will run at the maximum transfer rate of DDR4 2133 Mhz

Yeah, even on non-Z boards that claim to "support" XMP, the fastest that I've ever seen them support, without BLCK OC, is 2133. ASRock has something called "non-Z RAM OC", but all that does, is recognize certain models / brands of RAM, and reduces their timings, not increasing the actual DRAM clock speeds.

 

[UsandThem]

Yeah, I think the motherboard manufacturers stretch the truth a little when they state their non-Z170 boards support "XMP". To the average person, that would lead them to believe they could buy the faster RAM and use it. However, they all stated "Up to DDR4 2133" in the detailed specs and manual, and then listed speeds you could down-clock the RAM to below DDR4 2133, which I don't see many people wanting to do.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I wonder how much of this "supports XMP" intersects with "support Kaby Lake", since KBL supports DDR4-2400 at stock, whereas most DDR4-2400 on the market is using XMP to reach that speed, rather than being JEDEC-specified at 2400.

Meaning, a non-Z mobo, that contains a Kaby Lake-compatible BIOS update, with a KBL CPU, should be able to run "XMP" DDR4-2400 RAM, at 2400.

 

[UsandThem]

I wonder how much of this "supports XMP" intersects with "support Kaby Lake", since KBL supports DDR4-2400 at stock, whereas most DDR4-2400 on the market is using XMP to reach that speed, rather than being JEDEC-specified at 2400.

Meaning, a non-Z mobo, that contains a Kaby Lake-compatible BIOS update, with a KBL CPU, should be able to run "XMP" DDR4-2400 RAM, at 2400.

They might be doing that to get more people to upgrade their older systems, but even motherboards that have been out a while still throw that magical "XMP" on the box.

I think it really comes down to them just being misleading, like they have done since I first started shopping motherboards in the 90's. Motherboard boxes are basically full-page ads, and it wouldn't be the first time they 'stretched the truth' a little bit on them. It's really no different then when the manufacturer uses a Killer NIC over an Intel one because they are cheaper, but then shows on the box some really nice colorful graphs detailing how much better they perform over the Intel part.

 

[jana519]

Sorry, I was not notified of your replies. Responding to your messages.

XMP is basically like overclocking. The official speed that Skylake supports is DDR4 2133, which is the JEDEC standard.

I looked at a few H170 boards from Asus, Gigabyte, and Asrock which state they support XMP. Looking at their manuals and detailed specs, they still list DDR4 2133 or slower as the speeds supported. I didn't come across any that stated it supported memory to run faster than DDR4 2133.

Maybe one is out there, but you'll have to look in the motherboard manual/detailed specs.

Here are the ones I looked at:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Fatal1ty H170 Performance/?cat=Specifications

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/H170-PRO-GAMING/specifications/

From their memory QVL:

XMP is not strict overclocking with regards to voltages. DDR4 doesn't require more than 1.2V to hit 2400-2666 clockspeeds, and non-Z mobos support 1.2V.

Second question, where exactly do you see that quoted statement? I looked at the motherboard specifications for the ASUS H170 Gaming you linked and it's not there. This is what I see on ASUS's webpage:

Supports Intel® Extreme Memory Profile (XMP)

Third, Kingston's memory finder lists 2400 and 2666 HyperX RAM as supporting H110, H170, and B150 chipset mobos. Source

Either HyperX DDR4 memory does support XMP profiles, or Kingston RAM can be returned for not meeting it's specifications.

*Due to Intel® chipset limitation, DDR4 2133 MHz and higher memory modules on XMP mode will run at the maximum transfer rate of DDR4 2133 Mhz

Yeah, even on non-Z boards that claim to "support" XMP, the fastest that I've ever seen them support, without BLCK OC, is 2133. ASRock has something called "non-Z RAM OC", but all that does, is recognize certain models / brands of RAM, and reduces their timings, not increasing the actual DRAM clock speeds.

I get that Intel's statement supports 2133Mhz but motherboard manufacturers work around Intel's specifications all the time. The question isn't what Intel says, it's what motherboards actually do. ASRock's website shows DDR4 running at 2400Mhz in the BIOS of non-Z motherboards. Screenshot

I found an article saying Skylake CPUs run 2666Mhz speed on the X99 platform without any change to the CPU BCLK. From this article on Tom's Hardware:

DDR4-2800 speed presents a different problem, primarily because motherboards that adhere to Intel’s DDR4-2666 limit must overclock the CPU to use it. Getting to DDR4-2800 requires a 5% CPU overclock

This suggests to me that Skylake CPUs don't need to be overclocked to run 2666Mhz DDR4, if that is the case.

 

[UsandThem]

XMP is not strict overclocking with regards to voltages. DDR4 doesn't require more than 1.2V to hit 2400-2666 clockspeeds, and non-Z mobos support 1.2V.

Second question, where exactly do you see that quoted statement? I looked at the motherboard specifications for the ASUS H170 Gaming you linked and it's not there. This is what I see on ASUS's webpage:

Third, Kingston's memory finder lists 2400 and 2666 HyperX RAM as supporting H110, H170, and B150 chipset mobos. Source

Either HyperX DDR4 memory does support XMP profiles, or Kingston RAM can be returned for not meeting it's specifications.

It's on their QVL list at the bottom under the memory/device support tab, manual, and on the detailed spec page. Faster RAM will still work in the motherboards, it will just be limited to running at DDR4 2133 speeds.

I get that Intel's statement supports 2133Mhz but motherboard manufacturers work around Intel's specifications all the time. The question isn't what Intel says, it's what motherboards actually do. ASRock's website shows DDR4 running at 2400Mhz in the BIOS of non-Z motherboards. Screenshot

Asrock initially offered a way to run faster memory and overclock the CPU, but they were quickly shut down by Intel. Plus Intel has released updates through Windows Update and BIOS updates to disable certain workarounds.

I found an article saying Skylake CPUs run 2666Mhz speed on the X99 platform without any change to the CPU BCLK. From this article on Tom's Hardware:

X99 does not run Skylake CPUs, they run Haswell-E and Broadwell-E CPUs.

 

[jana519]

It's on their QVL list at the bottom under the memory/device support tab, manual, and on the detailed spec page. Faster RAM will still work in the motherboards, it will just be limited to running at DDR4 2133 speeds.

That's actually huge. Intel has HD 510 and 530 graphics on it's Skylake Pentium, i3, i5, and i7 CPUs. All of whose iGPUs scale 5-10% faster with higher RAM speeds. The question in my mind is, why disable faster RAM on non-Z motherboards if extra voltage isn't required to reach higher speeds? What does it benefit Intel? Seems like an anti-consumer stance to hurt their own customers.

Asrock initially offered a way to run faster memory and overclock the CPU, but they were quickly shut down by Intel. Plus Intel has released updates through Windows Update and BIOS updates to disable certain workarounds.

I would propose those features are still available, just have to roll back the BIOS to an earlier version. Just the same scenario when Intel disabed G3258 overclocking on non-Z motherboards.

 

[UsandThem]

That's actually huge. Intel has HD 510 and 530 graphics on it's Skylake Pentium, i3, i5, and i7 CPUs. All of whose iGPUs scale 5-10% faster with higher RAM speeds. The question in my mind is, why disable faster RAM on non-Z motherboards if extra voltage isn't required to reach higher speeds? What does it benefit Intel? Seems like an anti-consumer stance to hurt their own customers.

I have been around computers for a long time, Intel has never been known as a pro-consumer company from the time I got into computers. They are one of the most ruthless, and successful tech companies of all time. Back in the late 90's and well into the 2000's, they gave very $pecific incentives for PC manufacturers to not allow AMD CPUs to get into their product lineup (Dell the biggest customer).

I would propose those features are still available, just have to roll back the BIOS to an earlier version. Just the same scenario when Intel disabed G3258 overclocking on non-Z motherboards.

Sure, those older BIOSes are out there on various sites, but you also have to figure there were a lot of other substantial fixes in those updates over the last year. I guess I would rather spend a few extra bucks on a Z170 board and avoid all those potential headaches/time troubleshooting.

 

[jana519]

I was looking forward to a new HD 530 PC running on an iGPU for low-end gaming, but without DDR4 at higher speeds it looks much less appealing.

I will most likely choose a Zen processor if AMD doesn't impose ridiculous arbitrary restrictions on their customers. No reason to support an anti-consumer company if there's an alternative available.

 

[UsandThem]

I was looking forward to a new HD 530 PC running on an iGPU for low-end gaming, but without DDR4 at higher speeds it looks much less appealing.

I will most likely choose a Zen processor if AMD doesn't impose ridiculous arbitrary restrictions on their customers. No reason to support an anti-consumer company if there's an alternative available.

You don't have to worry about AMD doing that. What you have to worry about is AMD having a truly competitive product once again. AMD builds was all I used until they got left behind by Intel's products.

A competitive AMD would even be great for Intel fans as well, as I know they are tired of seeing maybe a 10% performance increase with each new CPU generation. The last awesome "mainstream" CPU was Sandy Bridge. After that, they've all been pretty much yawners, and quite a few people here still use Sandy Bridge and older in their gaming builds. Heck, the new Kaby Lake didn't even give the 10% performance increase over Skylake.

So, we'll soon see if it was all hype......

 

[jana519]

Their iGPU was competitive, in fact better than Intel. It was the single thread performance that was lacking, IIRC. I think Zen will be competitive, the only question mark in my mind is motherboard options and DDR4 memory speeds. Those are important when discussing iGPUs.

 

[jana519]

I know I can't be all alone at being angry with Intel for gimping DDR4 speeds on all H110, H170, AND B150 motherboards to 2133. How silly is that? I think VirtualLarry, the champion of the G3258/H81 budget builds, might have an opinion on this, too. Let me see if I can summon him to this thread.

*Due to Intel® chipset limitation, DDR4 2133 MHz and higher memory modules on XMP mode will run at the maximum transfer rate of DDR4 2133 Mhz

Hey bud, is limiting DDR4 to 2133Mhz on all H110, H170, and B150 motherboards by Intel silly or what?

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yeah, it sucks. But it's Intel. What can you do?

 

[Sfine]

I have a suggestion. I hope it's not too late.
Rather than taking the ordeal of overclocking the memory on a Non-Z motherboard for HD 530 Graphics, you can consider Skylake R Series processors with Iris Pro 580 Graphics like the i5 6585R. Plus, you may consider one of Corsair's Dominator Platinum DDR4 2133 with tighter C10 Timings.

Iris Pro with its eDRAM offers way more than HD 530 for low-end to moderate gaming.

 

[LTC8K6]

I have a suggestion. I hope it's not too late.
Rather than taking the ordeal of overclocking the memory on a Non-Z motherboard for HD 530 Graphics, you can consider Skylake R Series processors with Iris Pro 580 Graphics like the i5 6585R. Plus, you may consider one of Corsair's Dominator Platinum DDR4 2133 with tighter C10 Timings.

Iris Pro with its eDRAM offers way more than HD 530 for low-end to moderate gaming.

Those "R" chips are FCBGA chips, not socket 1151 chips.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, ASUS has a "non-Z170" QVL memory list. I believe you have to go in and manually set the memory to run above 2133 on a non-Z board? I believe XMP and Auto will just run at 2133.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb...61222.pdf?_ga=1.5725043.1376385022.1484195829

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/H170-PRO-GAMING/HelpDesk_QVL/

Not sure why they'd have the list if it was impossible to run the memory at it's rated speed?

 

[UsandThem]

Well, ASUS has a "non-Z170" QVL memory list. I believe you have to go in and manually set the memory to run above 2133 on a non-Z board? I believe XMP and Auto will just run at 2133.

http://dlcdnet.asus.com/pub/ASUS/mb...61222.pdf?_ga=1.5725043.1376385022.1484195829

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/H170-PRO-GAMING/HelpDesk_QVL/

Not sure why they'd have the list if it was impossible to run the memory at it's rated speed?

I linked to that Asus QVL in post #4, and while it seems like you should be able to run faster RAM, at the bottom of that list it states that max RAM speed is DDR4 2133 due to Intel limitation. It also states that in the manual as well, and from what I can see under the configuring BIOS section, you are extremely limited to what you can change. On page 2-20 in the manual, it states:

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, it says if you use XMP mode it will run at 2133...

But if there are no manual memory settings allowed, you only have AUTO and XMP, then I guess you can't set it up manually.

*Supports Intel® Extreme Memory Profile (XMP)
*Due to Intel® chipset limitation, DDR4 2133 MHz and higher memory modules on XMP mode will run at the maximum transfer rate of DDR4 2133 Mhz.
*The maximum memory frequency supported varies by processor
-When installing total memory of 4GB capacity or more, Windows 32-bit operation system may only recognize less than 3GB. Hence, a total installed memory of less than 3GB is recommended.
-It is recommended to install the memory modules from the slots for better overclocking capability.
-The default DIMM frequency depends on its Serial Presence Detect (SPD), which is the standard way of accessing information from a memory module. Under the default state, some memory modules for overclocking may operate at a lower frequency than the vendor-marked value.

 

[StrangerGuy]

That's actually huge. Intel has HD 510 and 530 graphics on it's Skylake Pentium, i3, i5, and i7 CPUs. All of whose iGPUs scale 5-10% faster with higher RAM speeds. The question in my mind is, why disable faster RAM on non-Z motherboards if extra voltage isn't required to reach higher speeds? What does it benefit Intel? Seems like an anti-consumer stance to hurt their own customers.

I would propose those features are still available, just have to roll back the BIOS to an earlier version. Just the same scenario when Intel disabed G3258 overclocking on non-Z motherboards.

If Intel didn't limit DDR4 OCing to Z boards, most single GPU only buyers will be flocking en masse to 4GHz+ i7-Ks and run with cheapo H/B mobos, and won't even bother with the laughingly small OC headroom.

Actually that was what I did, because paying $70 more for Z97 version of my board to get a imperceptible +300MHz OC out of my already 4.2GHz 4790K while turning my PC into a space heater is IMO stupid, and that price difference is almost enough to make the jump for a 4690K to a 4790K.

Even with Skylake Non-Z speeds capped at 2133, I will still prioritize my budget for a higher tier CPU/GPU/SSD first before worrying about faster RAM and Z mobos.

This is not to say I approve of such decisions, but from a business PoV it made sense because in a nutshell the high clocked i7s actually undermines the appeal of their own Z-chipsets.

 

[coercitiv]

I linked to that Asus QVL in post #4, and while it seems like you should be able to run faster RAM, at the bottom of that list it states that max RAM speed is DDR4 2133 due to Intel limitation. It also states that in the manual as well, and from what I can see under the configuring BIOS section, you are extremely limited to what you can change.

From another Asus H170 Pro motherboard manual:

 

[UsandThem]

From another Asus H170 Pro motherboard manual:

They must have updated it since I last looked at it (it says V2 when downloading it). However, they still didn't update their specifications for it and the QVL still states limited to DDR4 2133. So who knows unless someone owns it and knows for sure. I would personally just spend the extra $20 and not worry about the 'possibly'.