Nobel Laureate Ivar Giaever Quits APS over Stand on Global Warming

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jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
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Jaskalas

Not read?

He says he is a skeptic, but offered no real evidence. I also think he is little more than a casual observer of climate science. Comments about acid rain and the ozone hole actually support acting in a timely fashion on information as efforts to mitigate both of these appear to be successful. He mentions how mankind has prospered during this warming period. He doesn't seem too interested anyway by virtue of living at such a high latitude.

His actual resignation was rather subdued and came from not paying his current dues. Whether he has been considering this action for some time, I don't know, but others familiar with him said that the use of the word "incontrovertible" was the deciding factor.

randomrogue

To suggest that climate science relies on 100 years of data to make predictions means that you have little understanding of the subject. Ice cores and seafloor cores offer data stretching at least an order of magnitude longer than that. Past atmospheric conditions are readily deciphered from these things as well as the climactic conditions. If in charting these two things, they find that certain elements of both move in lockstep over such a long time frame, it is reasonable to assume that they will continue to do so. While this is only a small part of the whole of climate science, I hope it is demonstrative that "100 years of data" is an inaccurate statement.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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The blind faith of the APS in Global Warming, and that they will not even allow debate on it, has caused another prominent scientist to quit.

-- http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/214...x-dissent-nobel-prize-winner-physicist-re.htm

Reminds me of Harold Lewis, the Professor of Physics at the University of California, who quit last year who said, "Global warming is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life."

I don't know whether this is Ivar Giaever or Harold Lewis. Can you identify which this is?

1996330078_3803bd03ae.jpg

Or is that you? :p
 
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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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How many innocent people have been denied the health benefits of smoking because of these asshole liars' corruption?

LuckyStrike.jpg


gra_bdoctor.jpg

I know you're joking, but did you actually read the signs you posted? It says this brand of cigarette is less irritating. It doesn't say it's good for you. The second one just says more doctors smoke this brand, and that probably is a fact (at that time).
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I know you're joking, but did you actually read the signs you posted? It says this brand of cigarette is less irritating. It doesn't say it's good for you. The second one just says more doctors smoke this brand, and that probably is a fact (at that time).

And the intent tobacco murderers' ads was just as misleading, malicious, deadly and full of shit as the continued noise from the global warming deniers.

See my sig. :rolleyes:
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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And the intent tobacco murderers' ads was just as misleading, malicious, deadly and full of shit as the continued noise from the global warming deniers.

Very few of them could be considered misleading, such as the ones that claimed they sooth your throat and make it easier to breathe. The majority of them only said things like less irritating, smoother, more doctors smoke them.

It would be like if we took a survey to find that most doctors were overweight. Does that mean doctors are encouraging people to be overweight? No, it's just a number saying that doctors are overweight. Doing bad things themselves doesn't automatically mean they want people to do the same.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Very few of them could be considered misleading, such as the ones that claimed they sooth your throat and make it easier to breathe. The majority of them only said things like less irritating, smoother, more doctors smoke them.

It would be like if we took a survey to find that most doctors were overweight. Does that mean doctors are encouraging people to be overweight? No, it's just a number saying that doctors are overweight. Doing bad things themselves doesn't automatically mean they want people to do the same.

That's a hair raising crock of sh8. I think every tobacco exec for the last fifty years should be tried for crimes against humanity for the killer products they continue to market. Those greedy murderers knew as early as the50's that tobacco is addictive and carcinogenic, as well as being the cause of multiple other diseases, and they misled, bribed and flat out lied to our legislators to keep their deadly products on the market.

Lying tobacco whores raise their hands and swear before Congress that tobacco was not addictive.

Philip Morris compares smoking to eating applesauce.

Philip Morris CEO Tells Pregnant Moms Smoking is Safe.

A number of years ago, California passed an initiatiative that, at the time, was one of the first and strongest anti-smoking laws in the country. Despite the tobacco lobby spending a record amount for a private interest to defeat this initiative, it passed by a record margin of 80% - 20% margin. In the very next session of the state legislature, our elected representatives in the State Assembly passed a bill to overturn that initiative.

Fortunately, the media stink that followed caused the State Senate to think better of the idea and kill it. I still have to wonder how much money it takes to get over half of a state legilative body to overturn a law passed by 80% of the voters.

In one five year period, I lost around eleven good friends to tobacco caused illnesses. All of them started when they were kids in their early teens.

And before you tell me they should have known better and taken responsiblity for their actions, I'll tell you that I'll be 70 in a couple of weeks, and when I was a kid, there were no warnings on tobacco products.

FUCK THE TOBACCO MURDERERS! :mad:
 
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ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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The first one isn't completely wrong. Smoking is only addictive to SOME PEOPLE. I've smoked before and I don't have any addiction to it at all. I'll smoke 5 cigarettes in one night while drinking then go several months without smoking. I've never bought a pack of smokes; people just hand me cigarettes.

It is similar to eating apple sauce. I like apple sauce, I'll eat a bunch of it, then I'll forget about it for several months. I see it in the grocery store and think "oh yeah, I like apple sauce" so I buy more.

The last one is terrible. He should be killed for that.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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The first one isn't completely wrong. Smoking is only addictive to SOME PEOPLE. I've smoked before and I don't have any addiction to it at all. I'll smoke 5 cigarettes in one night while drinking then go several months without smoking. I've never bought a pack of smokes; people just hand me cigarettes.

It is similar to eating apple sauce. I like apple sauce, I'll eat a bunch of it, then I'll forget about it for several months. I see it in the grocery store and think "oh yeah, I like apple sauce" so I buy more.

The last one is terrible. He should be killed for that.

They're all the same in principle. They're pimping a product they know is addictive and deadly, and they're doing it for profit. They're all fucking vampires and ghouls.

You say you're not addicted to tobacco. Consider yourself fortunate, and don't push your luck. The scientific evidence is conclusive that tobacco is addictive on the same level as heroin and crack, yet, there are some junkies who can put it down cold turkey.
 

Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
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Science is dead when it comes to global warming. It has reached dogma status.
Yep. Most people can't even discuss it now without getting angry or offensive almost immediately. It's funny, really.
There's evidence we have no clue what the fuck we're talking about because we haven't got a damn prediction right, we keep discovering new data points and there is a huge segment who refuses to acknowledge any dissenting opinion(the AGW kooks).
This is my main view on it. The fact we are stupid little humans who don't know what's going on. That, and also the incredibly uncomfortable reality mentioned in the first post that if we are indeed warming (and I'm inclined to think we are to some slow degree) so far it's been pretty damn kick-ass. Maybe we should welcome it.
It is similar to eating apple sauce.
Apple sauce isn't addictive, smoking is. And smoking five in one evening is not considered by many to be a degree of consumption necessary to result in withdrawal if stopped.
 

ShawnD1

Lifer
May 24, 2003
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You say you're not addicted to tobacco. Consider yourself fortunate, and don't push your luck. The scientific evidence is conclusive that tobacco is addictive on the same level as heroin and crack, yet, there are some junkies who can put it down cold turkey.

People like me are a lot more common than you think. Only about 1/5 people identify themselves as smokers, but how many have smoked at least once in their life? It's a lot closer to 5/5. 4/5 people will smoke a cigarette then not enjoy it enough to continue doing it on a regular basis. Same thing happens with alcohol. 100&#37; of us normal people have tried alcohol before and most of us don't depend on it. We drink until we puke then life goes on. There's always that small fraction of people that can't put it down; they feel compelled to keep drinking. It's harder to track this sort of thing with illegal drugs, but I would guess it's the same. An astoundingly large percentage of the people I know have tried cocaine before, but none of them are junkies. They tried it, it was kinda nice, and that was it. It stopped there.
My point is that people who become addicted to things are actually a minority, and that's true for most drugs.

I'll at least admit smoking is a lot more addictive than other things. 1 in 5 is a minority, but it's a much larger minority than any other drug I've run into. Our society would be in major trouble if 1 in 5 people who tried cocaine became seriously addicted to it :eek:
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
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People like me are a lot more common than you think. Only about 1/5 people identify themselves as smokers, but how many have smoked at least once in their life? It's a lot closer to 5/5. 4/5 people will smoke a cigarette then not enjoy it enough to continue doing it on a regular basis. Same thing happens with alcohol. 100% of us normal people have tried alcohol before and most of us don't depend on it. We drink until we puke then life goes on. There's always that small fraction of people that can't put it down; they feel compelled to keep drinking. It's harder to track this sort of thing with illegal drugs, but I would guess it's the same. An astoundingly large percentage of the people I know have tried cocaine before, but none of them are junkies. They tried it, it was kinda nice, and that was it. It stopped there.

I'll at least admit smoking is a lot more addictive than other things. 1 in 5 is a minority, but it's a much larger minority than any other drug I've run into. Our society would be in major trouble if 1 in 5 people who tried cocaine became seriously addicted to it :eek:

What is that compels you to defend allowing the continued production and sale of products that, when used as intended, can do nothing but cause the ugliest of pain, disease and death?

I don't really give a flying fuck if YOU want to risk your health by flirting with smoking. If you continue, I'll just think you're a dumb fsk working diligently toward your very own Darwin award.

Getting back to climate change, consider the alternatives:

1. If the vast majority of the world's credible scientists are wrong, we'll have worked toward solving a problem and preventing a global catastrophy that MAY not occur. Meanwhile, we'll continue to develop more efficient means of producing, storing and using energy and developed other practices that will make this a better planet, even if that catastrophy doesn't happen.

2. If the vast majority of the world's credible scientists are right, but the deniers succeed in stifling that development, when the predicted catastrophies happen, it will be too late, and humanity will be fucked.

Given the results of those alternatives, I'll opt for the first one. Here's a thought...

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NeoV

Diamond Member
Apr 18, 2000
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as more and more of the skeptic 'leaders' (Spencer, Lindzen, Christy) are debunked, the denier crowd clings to anything that even remotely supports their point of view

the gem from this thread is that some guy thinks he's solved the whole thing - it's now the earth's core causing all of this...back to the Dobbs garbage...

also - defending the tobacco adds - /facepalm
 

monovillage

Diamond Member
Jul 3, 2008
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Wasn't it Al Gore that continued in the tobacco business and talked up his family tobacco connections to win Senate election years after his sister died of cancer? Yeah, i guess once you profit by selling snake oil poisons it's tough to stop.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
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The science behind global warming is not there. You can't take ~100 years of data and try to draw reasonable conclusions about the Earth's temperature.
:thumbsdown: No, harldy "100 years of data." Glaciology, dendrochronology, geology, etc. Many sources to collect and correlate records.

randomrogue, you have been caught presenting a falsehood. Care to retract? Care to present to this forum that your above opinion applied to denounce the science of climatology is bullshit?

Though with much of this crowd already confusing weather forecasting with long term trends involved with climatology, as demonstrated above, I doubt much of their science background extends past the magic of thermometers.

Ideologues often go hand-hand with ignorance. The lack of an interest to learn nor the inability to defer judgement without sufficient knowledge does not pursuade many such people to pass an easily invalidated opinion.

The inanity that this topic often brings out reminds me of this article by Dr. Jeff Masters of Weather Underground:

Some highlights of, 'The Manufactured Doubt industry and the hacked email controversy'


The Manufactured Doubt industry grows up

As the success of Hill and Knowlton's brilliant Manufactured Doubt campaign became apparent, other industries manufacturing dangerous products hired the firm to design similar PR campaigns. In 1967, Hill and Knowlton helped asbestos industry giant Johns-Manville set up the Asbestos Information Association (AIA). The official-sounding AIA produced "sound science" that questioned the link between asbestos and lung diseases (asbestos currently kills 90,000 people per year, according to the World Health Organization). Manufacturers of lead, vinyl chloride, beryllium, and dioxin products also hired Hill and Knowlton to devise product defense strategies to combat the numerous scientific studies showing that their products were harmful to human health.

By the 1980s, the Manufactured Doubt industry gradually began to be dominated by more specialized "product defense" firms and free enterprise "think tanks". Michaels wrote in Doubt is Their Product about the specialized "product defense" firms: "Having cut their teeth manufacturing uncertainty for Big Tobacco, scientists at ChemRisk, the Weinberg Group, Exponent, Inc., and other consulting firms now battle the regulatory agencies on behalf of the manufacturers of benzene, beryllium, chromium, MTBE, perchlorates, phthalates, and virtually every other toxic chemical in the news today....Public health interests are beside the point. This is science for hire, period, and it is extremely lucrative".

Joining the specialized "product defense" firms were the so-called "think tanks". These front groups received funding from manufacturers of dangerous products and produced "sound science" in support of their funders' products, in the name of free enterprise and free markets. Think tanks such as the George C. Marshall Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been active for decades in the Manufactured Doubt business, generating misleading science and false controversy to protect the profits of their clients who manufacture dangerous products.

..

Joining the specialized "product defense" firms were the so-called "think tanks". These front groups received funding from manufacturers of dangerous products and produced "sound science" in support of their funders' products, in the name of free enterprise and free markets. Think tanks such as the George C. Marshall Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heartland Institute, and Dr. Fred Singer's SEPP (Science and Environmental Policy Project) have all been active for decades in the Manufactured Doubt business, generating misleading science and false controversy to protect the profits of their clients who manufacture dangerous products.

..

As is essential in any Manufactured Doubt campaign, Hill and Knowlton found a respected scientist to lead the effort--noted British scientist Richard Scorer, a former editor of the International Journal of Air Pollution and author of several books on pollution. In 1975, Scorer went on a month-long PR tour, blasting Molina and Rowland, calling them "doomsayers", and remarking, "The only thing that has been accumulated so far is a number of theories." To complement Scorer's efforts, Hill and Knowlton unleashed their standard package of tricks learned from decades of serving the tobacco industry:

- Launch a public relations campaign disputing the evidence.

- Predict dire economic consequences, and ignore the cost benefits.

- Use non-peer reviewed scientific publications or industry-funded scientists who don't publish original peer-reviewed scientific work to support your point of view.

- Trumpet discredited scientific studies and myths supporting your point of view as scientific fact.

- Point to the substantial scientific uncertainty, and the certainty of economic loss if immediate action is taken.

- Use data from a local area to support your views, and ignore the global evidence.

- Disparage scientists, saying they are playing up uncertain predictions of doom in order to get research funding.

- Disparage environmentalists, claiming they are hyping environmental problems in order to further their ideological goals.

- Complain that it is unfair to require regulatory action in the U.S., as it would put the nation at an economic disadvantage compared to the rest of the world.

- Claim that more research is needed before action should be taken.

- Argue that it is less expensive to live with the effects.

The campaign worked, and CFC regulations were delayed many years, as Hill and Knowlton boasted in internal documents. The PR firm also took credit for keeping public opinion against buying CFC aerosols to a minimum, and helping change the editorial positions of many newspapers.

In the end, Hill and Knowlton's PR campaign casting doubt on the science of ozone depletion by CFCs turned out to have no merit.

..

I could say much more about the Manufactured Doubt campaign being waged against the science of climate change and global warming, but it would fill an entire book. In fact, it has, and I recommend reading Climate Cover-up to learn more. The main author, James Hoggan, owns a Canadian public relations firm, and is intimately familiar with how public relations campaigns work. Suffice to say, the Manufactured Doubt campaign against global warming--funded by the richest corporations in world history--is probably the most extensive and expensive such effort ever. We don't really know how much money the fossil fuel industry has pumped into its Manufactured Doubt campaign, since they don't have to tell us. The website exxonsecrets.org estimates that ExxonMobil alone spent $20 million between 1998 -2007 on the effort. An analysis done by Desmogblog's Kevin Grandia done in January 2009 found that skeptical global warming content on the web had doubled over the past year. Someone is paying for all that content.

Lobbyists, not skeptical scientists
The history of the Manufactured Doubt industry provides clear lessons in evaluating the validity of their attacks on the published peer-reviewed climate change science. One should trust that the think tanks and allied "skeptic" bloggers such as Steve McIntyre of Climate Audit and Anthony Watts of Watts Up With That will give information designed to protect the profits of the fossil fuel industry. Yes, there are respected scientists with impressive credentials that these think tanks use to voice their views, but these scientists have given up their objectivity and are now working as lobbyists. I don't like to call them skeptics, because all good scientists should be skeptics. Rather, the think tanks scientists are contrarians, bent on discrediting an accepted body of published scientific research for the benefit of the richest and most powerful corporations in history. Virtually none of the "sound science" they are pushing would ever get published in a serious peer-reviewed scientific journal, and indeed the contrarians are not scientific researchers. They are lobbyists. Many of them seem to believe their tactics are justified, since they are fighting a righteous war against eco-freaks determined to trash the economy.
 

Whiskey16

Golden Member
Jul 11, 2011
1,338
5
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I know you're joking, but did you actually read the signs you posted? It says this brand of cigarette is less irritating. It doesn't say it's good for you. The second one just says more doctors smoke this brand, and that probably is a fact (at that time).
ShaunD1, here is a bit of a lecture upon Manufactured Doubt concerning the very same tobacco topic:

With the public growing increasingly alarmed about the health effects of smoking, the tobacco industry had to move quickly to protect profits and stem the tide of increasingly worrisome scientific news. Big Tobacco turned to one the world's five largest public relations firms, Hill and Knowlton, to help out. Hill and Knowlton designed a brilliant Public Relations (PR) campaign to convince the public that smoking is not dangerous. They encouraged the tobacco industry to set up their own research organization, the Council for Tobacco Research (CTR), which would produce science favorable to the industry, emphasize doubt in all the science linking smoking to lung cancer, and question all independent research unfavorable to the tobacco industry. The CTR did a masterful job at this for decades, significantly delaying and reducing regulation of tobacco products. George Washington University epidemiologist David Michaels, who is President Obama's nominee to head the Occupational Health and Safety Administration (OSHA), wrote a meticulously researched 2008 book called, Doubt is Their Product: How Industry's Assault on Science Threatens Your Health. In the book, he wrote: "the industry understood that the public is in no position to distinguish good science from bad. Create doubt, uncertainty, and confusion. Throw mud at the anti-smoking research under the assumption that some of it is bound to stick. And buy time, lots of it, in the bargain". The title of Michaels' book comes from a 1969 memo from a tobacco company executive: "Doubt is our product since it is the best means of competing with the 'body of fact' that exists in the minds of the general public. It is also the means of establishing a controversy". Hill and Knowlton, on behalf of the tobacco industry, had founded the "Manufactured Doubt" industry.
 
Oct 27, 2007
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They are able to get more money if they say it has relevance to global warming. There is a conflict of interest between truth and funding.
Is there any evidence for this? I see climate "skeptics" say this all the time but I have never seen anyone present evidence that studies confirming global warming are more likely to be funded or are funded more than their skeptical counterparts. This is an honest question, because if such evidence does exist then it's probably relevant.

And hey, if the evidence doesn't exist maybe we can stop throwing this line out there?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,500
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Scientists get research money for everything they research. Why is it suspicious in the case of climate research but not any other area?

And strangely absent from the rhetoric of deniers is any doubt about the results produced by scientists whose work is funded by big oil.

Results of research funded by those with a vested interest in undermining MMCC: No problem.

Results of research by everybody else: It's a conspiracy.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
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The science behind global warming is not there. You can't take ~100 years of data and try to draw reasonable conclusions about the Earth's temperature. We simply don't know. It's a guess. If you look at huge time frames of the Earth you see that it is sometimes hot and sometimes cold. It's the equivalent of trying to calculate the average speed of a 20 mile race by only measuring 2 seconds at the end. With that said most people would rather be safe than sorry and start changing our behavior. I wish they would just say that instead of trying to force dogma (that word will work here) down our throat.

So thousands of PhD's in climatology are all mistaken about the "science of global warming?."

You're so smart. How can you stand to be around us intellectual peons?
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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:thumbsdown: No, harldy "100 years of data." Glaciology, dendrochronology, geology, etc. Many sources to collect and correlate records.

randomrogue, you have been caught presenting a falsehood. Care to retract? Care to present to this forum that your above opinion applied to denounce the science of climatology is bullshit?
'

I believe you are confused.

Ice samples support the idea that the Earth has cyclical temperature changes and that what we are seeing now is not out of the norm.

Ocean and air temperature readings only go back to like 1890. It's a drop in the bucket and not enough data to draw reasonable conclusions on.
 

randomrogue

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2011
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If you want to really see the science behind all this start looking at more than one source. Don't just pick one and go with it. If Al Gore is your only reference then you're lame.

They have done ALL KINDS OF STUDIES and some are possibly biased as stated above. However if you look at a combination of studies you will see a remarkable thing. That nothing today sticks out unless you want to look at it on a very small scale. Sure if I look at a scale of 20 years I see a rise. Wow, that's great. It tells me nothing scientifically. They have done glacier studies, tree ring studies, coral studies, etc. What do you see?

Small dips in temp about 500 years ago. Small rise in temp about 1000 years ago. Temps today are roughly equivalent to what we had during the age of the Vikings.

Don't read me wrong though. I still think we need to be wary of our environment. I just think the "science" behind "absolute proof of global warming" is not there.
 
Oct 27, 2007
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However if you look at a combination of studies you will see a remarkable thing. That nothing today sticks out unless you want to look at it on a very small scale. Sure if I look at a scale of 20 years I see a rise. Wow, that's great. It tells me nothing scientifically. They have done glacier studies, tree ring studies, coral studies, etc. What do you see?

Small dips in temp about 500 years ago. Small rise in temp about 1000 years ago. Temps today are roughly equivalent to what we had during the age of the Vikings.
Just for anyone who might think you're not a total buffoon, the above quoted text is the exact opposite of the truth.