No such thing as forged steel engine blocks?

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Howard
Sorry, I didn't realize he was talking about steel pistons.

Fastar than yuo! Linflas!

Steel pistons? Nope.. Automotive pistons are typically either cast or forged aluminum, to keep the reciprocating weight down. Piston rings, the metal that actually touches the cylinder wall, are typically ductile iron or moly. Just FYI...

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: Howard
I understand the use of spelt, it's just that there was a nice piece of ** on my monitor that blocked the slash on the t. So I thought you typed "spell".

My bad. Been a good thread though.

ZV

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Howard
Sorry, I didn't realize he was talking about steel pistons.

Fastar than yuo! Linflas!

Steel pistons? Nope.. Automotive pistons are typically either cast or forged aluminum, to keep the reciprocating weight down. Piston rings, the metal that actually touches the cylinder wall, are typically ductile iron or moly. Just FYI...

Piston rings are never molybdenum, but sometimes molybdenum disulfide-coated.

Well, he said steel, not aluminum, didn't he? ... wear steel _on_ aluminum

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Howard
Sorry, I didn't realize he was talking about steel pistons.

Fastar than yuo! Linflas!

Steel pistons? Nope.. Automotive pistons are typically either cast or forged aluminum, to keep the reciprocating weight down. Piston rings, the metal that actually touches the cylinder wall, are typically ductile iron or moly. Just FYI...

And this I don't really understand. Pistons and cylinders never touch each other, so does the oil transfer the frictional properties of both?

 

[woodie1]

The rings provide the friction. If I understand your question correctly.

 

[Howard]

Right, remind me to get more than 3 hours of sleep daily.

 

[lowtech1]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: yellowfiero

Originally posted by: Transition
The blocks may be aluminum, but the sleeves are always some form of steel.

absolutely, you don't want to wear steel on aluminum!

That does not make sense. He says the liners are always some kind of steel, and you agree and say that doesn't work?

No, he's saying that it does work. The sleeves go between the steel and aluminum parts, with the sleeve fixed against the aluminum. This way the moving steel part wears against the non-moving steel liner, and not against the aluminum part. Steel wearing against aluminum would wear the aluminum out quickly.

ZV

EDIT:

Nikasil (nickel silicon carbide)

I thought that Nikasil was Nickle, Aluminum, and Silicon?

I don't think it is Nickel Aluminium Silicon carbide is use, because you will have to deal with piting.

If I remember correctly (I studied composite almost 15 years ago), Nickel is quite volatile and bond to Silicon Carbide very well, leaving a brittle crystalline film of Aluminum on it surface when heated. I won?t be surprise if there is a small amount of Tin in the Nikasil composite, because it is one of the best material for stabilizing impurity in Silicon.

Back on subject -- As others have said, cost is the determine factor for not using forged steel block.

 

[toph99]

The only application i could see using forged steel blocks would be top fuel dragsters or BIG diesles. I'm not sure what they use(i'm pretty sure top fuel uses aluminum but i'm not sure)

 

[Antisocial Virge]

Pistons and cylinders never touch each other

You have never seen a piston skirt before have you?

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Antisocial-Virge

Pistons and cylinders never touch each other

You have never seen a piston skirt before have you?

No, I guess I haven't. I'm full of ignorance, I suppose.

toph99 - most Top Fuel dragsters use Rodeck's forged aluminum TFX blocks, IIRC. They've never windowed before (meaning they keep broken parts inside).

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Howard
Anyway, there need not be any type of liner unless both pistons and block are aluminum. If they are, they can be iron coated (like what they did with the Chevy Vega). Or, they can coat the cylinders with iron (never heard of it being done with steel), or Nikasil (nickel silicon carbide), or FRM (Fiber-Reinforced Metal), which is a fiber-based sleeve reinforced by poured aluminum and then machined to desired specs.

hmmm.....

You must never have heard of the Cosworth Vega. That engine had no liners and the wear from the piston rings would after 20k miles cause serious compression loss and blow by. Most automotive aluminum engines use cast iron liners.

Buick (and Olds) made aluminum V8 engines (215 cid) in the early 60's. Very light and fairly powerfull, but too expensive. These engines are cool for hot rodding though. Use a 215 block with a 300 Buick crank and remove the liners to bore it out and then put new liners in matched to custom pistons, you can make a rather cool 300 cid aluminum V8. Put that into a light car (skyhawk, monza, sunbird, starfire) and you have one fast and well balanced car. Of course you could just build up the V6 that usually is found in them. Some monzas came with 305s from the factory (i saw one a few years ago) they are very nose heavy.

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Howard
Anyway, there need not be any type of liner unless both pistons and block are aluminum. If they are, they can be iron coated (like what they did with the Chevy Vega). Or, they can coat the cylinders with iron (never heard of it being done with steel), or Nikasil (nickel silicon carbide), or FRM (Fiber-Reinforced Metal), which is a fiber-based sleeve reinforced by poured aluminum and then machined to desired specs.

hmmm.....

You must never have heard of the Cosworth Vega. That engine had no liners and the wear from the piston rings would after 20k miles cause serious compression loss and blow by. Most automotive aluminum engines use cast iron liners.

Buick (and Olds) made aluminum V8 engines (215 cid) in the early 60's. Very light and fairly powerfull, but too expensive. These engines are cool for hot rodding though. Use a 215 block with a 300 Buick crank and remove the liners to bore it out and then put new liners in matched to custom pistons, you can make a rather cool 300 cid aluminum V8. Put that into a light car (skyhawk, monza, sunbird, starfire) and you have one fast and well balanced car. Of course you could just build up the V6 that usually is found in them. Some monzas came with 305s from the factory (i saw one a few years ago) they are very nose heavy.

What you are referring to is actually the Chevy Vega - however, it _was_ designed by Cosworth. Anyway, I meant to say that they can coat the pistons with iron ("they" fits with "pistons" and not "block"), which is what they did with the Vega, and I know that they didn't have any cylinders liners, else the pistons would not have needed to be coated.

 

[Iron Woode]

Originally posted by: Howard

Originally posted by: Iron Woode

Originally posted by: Howard
Anyway, there need not be any type of liner unless both pistons and block are aluminum. If they are, they can be iron coated (like what they did with the Chevy Vega). Or, they can coat the cylinders with iron (never heard of it being done with steel), or Nikasil (nickel silicon carbide), or FRM (Fiber-Reinforced Metal), which is a fiber-based sleeve reinforced by poured aluminum and then machined to desired specs.

hmmm.....

You must never have heard of the Cosworth Vega. That engine had no liners and the wear from the piston rings would after 20k miles cause serious compression loss and blow by. Most automotive aluminum engines use cast iron liners.

Buick (and Olds) made aluminum V8 engines (215 cid) in the early 60's. Very light and fairly powerfull, but too expensive. These engines are cool for hot rodding though. Use a 215 block with a 300 Buick crank and remove the liners to bore it out and then put new liners in matched to custom pistons, you can make a rather cool 300 cid aluminum V8. Put that into a light car (skyhawk, monza, sunbird, starfire) and you have one fast and well balanced car. Of course you could just build up the V6 that usually is found in them. Some monzas came with 305s from the factory (i saw one a few years ago) they are very nose heavy.

What you are referring to is actually the Chevy Vega - however, it _was_ designed by Cosworth. Anyway, I meant to say that they can coat the pistons with iron ("they" fits with "pistons" and not "block"), which is what they did with the Vega, and I know that they didn't have any cylinders liners, else the pistons would not have needed to be coated.

What I was refering to is the fact that there were 2 different 4 bangers made for the Chevy Vega. The Cosworth engine was an option, not standard equipment. The engine, not the car was designed by Cosworth. Pistons coated or not makes no difference. The rings were causing the damage. Just goes to show you that European engine tech can be just as crappy as any in the US.

PS: 215 aluminum V8 tech was sold to Rover.

 

[toph99]

Originally posted by: Antisocial-Virge

Pistons and cylinders never touch each other

You have never seen a piston skirt before have you?

as far as i know pistons are not SUPPOSED to touch the cylinder walls(or if they do it's supposed to be minimal) or else you end up with scored cylinder walls(like the problem some LS1's have) i coul dbe wrong though, that was just my interpretation

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: ffmcobalt

Originally posted by: Howard
Cast iron is just as heavy.

Cast iron is just as heavy as a metal that's refined beyond the point of being cast iron? Ain't there something wrong with that?

lol yeah cast iron is just as heavy as your standard steel - this might change when u add sizeble amounts of Ni, Cr and Co but then this isnt called steel anymore but rather Ni-based superalloy

 

[B00ne]

Originally posted by: Transition
The blocks may be aluminum, but the sleeves are always some form of steel.

only in old cars
edit: actually thats wrong but modern engines dont use steel liners anymore rather a hypereutectic Al-Si alloy, sometimes plasmasprayed coatings (also Al-Si)