No Sh1T Sherlock, Associated Press study shows Politicians are bought

[dmcowen674]

From the attack on the Digital Age to the Health Care crisis facing Americans the Associated Press connected the dots between Corporations wishes and the Politicians they have bought to make the Laws for them and vote their way.

No Sh1T Sherlock , Associated Press study shows Politicians are bought:

Campaign Donations Sway Lawmakers' Vote

 

[jjones]

Do we give this one the Captain Obvious award?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

With doctors retiring early or dropping specialties because of rising malpractice insurance premiums, the American Medical Association made sure candidates were aware of that issue. The association's political action committee gave $2.5 million to federal candidates for the 2002 elections. Only four PACs gave more, including that of the trial lawyers.

"What the PAC tries to do is make sure that candidates are in office who will protect patients' interests and keep physicians in the practice of medicine," said AMA President Donald Palmisano, a New Orleans surgeon. "That's why we made medical liability reform our No. 1 priority."

That's the reason I left the AMA . . . I believe the majority of American physicians are not members.

 

[uncleel]

That's like the "Union of Concerned Scientists" where you don't have to be one to join!

TERM LIMITS:
A far as politicians, we need term limits.
A politicians only job is to seek money, to get elected, to stay in power. ( w/ a few notable exceptions)
They have become a elite class unto themselves. Ross Perot was right!

 

[Moonbeam]

This is a principal reason why Americans feel a profound alienation and impotent rage toward the government. Democratic government is supposed to serve the will of the electorate and instead it serves Mammon. We can't get our government back because money has a lock on it and doesn't want you to get it back. We got rid of King George and now we've got King Dollar. This is class warfare by wealth and the answer to it is class warfare by the ordinary citizen. It is our right to alter or abolish this mess and to institute new government to fix it. There is nothing else to be done or worth doing. We have to cut the connection between money and vote or we will forever fight over a shrinking pie. The common good is what grows and preserves the pie for the generations.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is a principal reason why Americans feel a profound alienation and impotent rage toward the government. Democratic government is supposed to serve the will of the electorate and instead it serves Mammon. We can't get our government back because money has a lock on it and doesn't want you to get it back. We got rid of King George and now we've got King Dollar. This is class warfare by wealth and the answer to it is class warfare by the ordinary citizen. It is our right to alter or abolish this mess and to institute new government to fix it. There is nothing else to be done or worth doing. We have to cut the connection between money and vote or we will forever fight over a shrinking pie. The common good is what grows and preserves the pie for the generations.

Where do I sign up?

Actually, I'm a hopeless pessimist when it comes to this issue. The sheer size of the Federal government, and the number and complexity of issues involved, precludes an ordinary citizen from keeping abreast of their interests in an informed manner; relegating decisions to sound bites from the media. As the Federal government increases, you see a decrease in its ability to serve the will of the people.

On another note: Term limits do not work either. You still have the Party machinery grooming their frontrunner. It's just the same special interests and PACs with a new face.

 

[Moonbeam]

I noticed your hopeless pessimism in many different threads. I wish I could offer you a solution. I'm afraid I'm pessimistic too. However I think I can identify the source of the problem, the fear of feeling how we feel. There seems to me only one pragmatic point on which to focus, the point of this thread, that politicians vote according to how their re-election is financed. That tells me that the Supreme court decision that money is free speech is false and must be reversed, that campaigns must not be able to accept any private money at all. We need publicly funded elections with strict spending limits, or we need tax payer supported lobbyists for the people with huge sums to spend.

 

[tcsenter]

Simplicity always reigns supreme.

This is a bit of a 'chicken or the egg' question, or maybe the 'half-empty or half-full' question. Or would it be the 'if a tree falls in the forest...' question? Hmm...

Anyhoo! Do politicians fashion their positions according to which are the most profitable, or does the money gravitate towards politicians who hold certain positions?

When we spearheaded a six-year long grassroots effort to change the concealed weapons laws in Michigan, we didn't go around to the offices of legislators who opposed concealed carry, flash an attache case load of money in their face, then say "this is all yours if you support our proposal", then slam the case shut shouting "No money for you!' if they didn't agree to vote our position.

I know, I was responsible for lobbying representatives from my district. First, we didn't have that kind of money to begin with, not that we would have if we could have. It was all very simple: I explained our cause and asked if they would support it. If they answered 'no', I didn't bust out the 'attache case', plop it down on their desk, open it up, turn it to reveal the contents, and pose the question again.

I simply said "Thank you for your time" and left. We then found suitable persons who shared our beliefs and positions, and financially supported them to run against those legislators who opposed our cause. And we kept doing that until we had sufficiently unemployed enough antigun legislators that we had made Lansing a very favorable climate for our proposal. That's good old Democracy at its finest.

It took us six years and we did it on a shoe-string budget, against overwhelming media bias favoring our opponents, who paid star athletes to speak-out against our proposal in major urban districts and told nothing but lies, along with then Attorney General (now Governor) Jennifer Granholm misappropriating the power of her office and her influence as Attorney General to engage in political lobbying against our proposal. The 'free' media coverage given to our opponents alone was probably worth more than we spent all-told for our cause.

In that time, we had maybe five or six 'converts', legislators who previously opposed our proposal then crossed-over and supported it. This only happened after many hours of persuading them that concealed carry was not the 'boogeyman' they had been led to believe or that our opponents were portraying. The rest we got elected because they supported us from the very beginning. They were "us", people who shared our beliefs.

Of course, we continue to financially support those people because they represent us and we don't want to see them lose to someone who won't represent us. For some strange reason, these candidates don't receive much money from antigun groups. I wonder why that is?

By the moronicly simplistic method of comparing donations to voting records, one could make the case to the ignorant masses that these politicians have been "bought", because they receive more contributions from progun groups and relatively little [or nothing] from antigun groups.

Anyone with any reasonable understanding of, but especially experience with, lobbying and the political process knows the methodology in the AP article was selected to prove a foregone conclusion. No discussion at all of alternative explanations why politicians might receive donations which reflect the way they vote.

There couldn't possibly be any other outcome except for politicians to receive more money from the causes they vote. Who the hell would give any substantial amounts of money to politicians who not only don't represent but oppose their causes?

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is a principal reason why Americans feel a profound alienation and impotent rage toward the government. Democratic government is supposed to serve the will of the electorate and instead it serves Mammon. We can't get our government back because money has a lock on it and doesn't want you to get it back. We got rid of King George and now we've got King Dollar. This is class warfare by wealth and the answer to it is class warfare by the ordinary citizen. It is our right to alter or abolish this mess and to institute new government to fix it. There is nothing else to be done or worth doing. We have to cut the connection between money and vote or we will forever fight over a shrinking pie. The common good is what grows and preserves the pie for the generations.

money talks and bullsh!t walks. no matter what you do to fix any system, human greed will always enter the fray. your obsession with socialist ideals has kept you in the lab for too long. you've failed to see your comrades' failure in the soviet union, cuba, china, north korea, and east germany. You need to disband with the bullsh!t and come up with more rational thoughts.

The best answer came from McCain. I'd suggest you read up on his bill.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: Dari

your obsession with socialist ideals has kept you in the lab for too long. you've failed to see your comrades' failure in the soviet union, cuba, china, north korea, and east germany. You need to disband with the bullsh!t and come up with more rational thoughts.

Do you fail to see the difference between socialism and communism? Socialism is what's present in Western Europe and Canada today. Our country is steadily creeping towards it. Communism is what the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, etc are/were.

From what I can tell, socialism is alive and well.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla

Originally posted by: Dari

your obsession with socialist ideals has kept you in the lab for too long. you've failed to see your comrades' failure in the soviet union, cuba, china, north korea, and east germany. You need to disband with the bullsh!t and come up with more rational thoughts.

Do you fail to see the difference between socialism and communism? Socialism is what's present in Western Europe and Canada today. Our country is steadily creeping towards it. Communism is what the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, etc are/were.

From what I can tell, socialism is alive and well.

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: Dari

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

I'd rather this discussion not deteriorate into a petty debate over definitions. You equated socialist ideals with the communist countries of the world. I simply pointed out that socialist ideals (and forms of socialism) exist in other countries that aren't "evil" communist countries that failed or are doomed to fail. Its all about striking a balance, and not all socialist ideals are doomed to failure.

 

[tcsenter]

Do you fail to see the difference between socialism and communism? Socialism is what's present in Western Europe and Canada today. Our country is steadily creeping towards it. Communism is what the Soviet Union, Cuba, China, etc are/were.

Yep, and Western European Socialism has thrived only to the extent which they betray their socialist ideals (increasing privatization, deregulation, private property rights, capitalism).

Eastern European Socialism failed precisely because it wouldn't betray its socialist ideals.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla

Originally posted by: Dari

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

I'd rather this discussion not deteriorate into a petty debate over definitions. You equated socialist ideals with the communist countries of the world. I simply pointed out that socialist ideals (and forms of socialism) exist in other countries that aren't "evil" communist countries that failed or are doomed to fail. Its all about striking a balance, and not all socialist ideals are doomed to failure.

those countries are communist in name only. no communist system has ever existed on earth. for it to work, it'd have to be devoid of most human characteristics. That was one of the main failures in communist theory.

 

[uncleel]

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Where do I sign up?

Have you given the reform party any consideration? http://www.reformparty.org/


Campaign Reform:

Reduce the cost of campaigns by shortening the election cycle.

Vote on Saturdays and Sundays - not Tuesdays - so working people can get to the polls.

Replace the Electoral College process for electing the President with a direct vote from the citizens - so that every vote counts.

Prohibit announcements of exit polls until all voting has been completed in Hawaii.

Require Members of Congress to raise all money from voters in their districts, and require members of the Senate to raise all money from voters within their States.

Term Limits:

Limit Members of Congress to three terms in the House of Representatives and limit Senators to two terms in the Senate.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla

Originally posted by: Dari

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

I'd rather this discussion not deteriorate into a petty debate over definitions. You equated socialist ideals with the communist countries of the world. I simply pointed out that socialist ideals (and forms of socialism) exist in other countries that aren't "evil" communist countries that failed or are doomed to fail. Its all about striking a balance, and not all socialist ideals are doomed to failure.

those countries are communist in name only. no communist system has ever existed on earth. for it to work, it'd have to be devoid of most human characteristics. That was one of the main failures in communist theory.

It's rich to listen to the ignorant speak of human characteristics, as if they themselves knew what it means to be human. What you know Dari, is what it means to be motivated by fear and it's other face, greed.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla

Originally posted by: Dari

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

I'd rather this discussion not deteriorate into a petty debate over definitions. You equated socialist ideals with the communist countries of the world. I simply pointed out that socialist ideals (and forms of socialism) exist in other countries that aren't "evil" communist countries that failed or are doomed to fail. Its all about striking a balance, and not all socialist ideals are doomed to failure.

those countries are communist in name only. no communist system has ever existed on earth. for it to work, it'd have to be devoid of most human characteristics. That was one of the main failures in communist theory.

It's rich to listen to the ignorant speak of human characteristics, as if they themselves knew what it means to be human. What you know Dari, is what it means to be motivated by fear and it's other face, greed.

Oh man, I was right. you and your fear theory are back in action again, as I thought they'd be. you remind me of that blind (I think) retarded guy in Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing, who goes around with a boombox around his neck, listening to the sermons of Malcolm X all day everyday. Everything, according to you, is based on fear. You are a fool.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is a principal reason why Americans feel a profound alienation and impotent rage toward the government. Democratic government is supposed to serve the will of the electorate and instead it serves Mammon. We can't get our government back because money has a lock on it and doesn't want you to get it back. We got rid of King George and now we've got King Dollar. This is class warfare by wealth and the answer to it is class warfare by the ordinary citizen. It is our right to alter or abolish this mess and to institute new government to fix it. There is nothing else to be done or worth doing. We have to cut the connection between money and vote or we will forever fight over a shrinking pie. The common good is what grows and preserves the pie for the generations.

OMG, he finally said something understandable and can actually agree with. I didn't think it was possible.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: uncleel

Originally posted by: jjones

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Where do I sign up?

Have you given the reform party any consideration? http://www.reformparty.org/


Campaign Reform:

Reduce the cost of campaigns by shortening the election cycle.

Vote on Saturdays and Sundays - not Tuesdays - so working people can get to the polls.

Replace the Electoral College process for electing the President with a direct vote from the citizens - so that every vote counts.

Prohibit announcements of exit polls until all voting has been completed in Hawaii.

Require Members of Congress to raise all money from voters in their districts, and require members of the Senate to raise all money from voters within their States.

Term Limits:

Limit Members of Congress to three terms in the House of Representatives and limit Senators to two terms in the Senate.

Absolutely need the Term limits, this career Politician crap simply means Supreme rulers.

There are some occasions where there is term limits like on local Mayor positions etc and sometimes you get people that do such a great job that you hate to see them go but it still turns out to be the right thing to do. The President position has a limit so there is no justifiable reason that the rest of the positons on down don't have some sort of limits too.

 

[BarneyFife]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is a principal reason why Americans feel a profound alienation and impotent rage toward the government. Democratic government is supposed to serve the will of the electorate and instead it serves Mammon. We can't get our government back because money has a lock on it and doesn't want you to get it back. We got rid of King George and now we've got King Dollar. This is class warfare by wealth and the answer to it is class warfare by the ordinary citizen. It is our right to alter or abolish this mess and to institute new government to fix it. There is nothing else to be done or worth doing. We have to cut the connection between money and vote or we will forever fight over a shrinking pie. The common good is what grows and preserves the pie for the generations.

money talks and bullsh!t walks. no matter what you do to fix any system, human greed will always enter the fray. your obsession with socialist ideals has kept you in the lab for too long. you've failed to see your comrades' failure in the soviet union, cuba, china, north korea, and east germany. You need to disband with the bullsh!t and come up with more rational thoughts.

The best answer came from McCain. I'd suggest you read up on his bill.

China isn't a failure. The last I looked over a billion people were being fed, the crime rate was low, and everyone had a job.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla

Originally posted by: Dari

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

I'd rather this discussion not deteriorate into a petty debate over definitions. You equated socialist ideals with the communist countries of the world. I simply pointed out that socialist ideals (and forms of socialism) exist in other countries that aren't "evil" communist countries that failed or are doomed to fail. Its all about striking a balance, and not all socialist ideals are doomed to failure.

those countries are communist in name only. no communist system has ever existed on earth. for it to work, it'd have to be devoid of most human characteristics. That was one of the main failures in communist theory.

It's rich to listen to the ignorant speak of human characteristics, as if they themselves knew what it means to be human. What you know Dari, is what it means to be motivated by fear and it's other face, greed.

Oh man, I was right. you and your fear theory are back in action again, as I thought they'd be. you remind me of that blind (I think) retarded guy in Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing, who goes around with a boombox around his neck, listening to the sermons of Malcolm X all day everyday. Everything, according to you, is based on fear. You are a fool.

Damn interesting that you'd be right when you didn't say anything. What I said was that everything about you is based on fear.

Please explain to me what universal principle your neocons rely upon for truth. Don't be afraid.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is a principal reason why Americans feel a profound alienation and impotent rage toward the government. Democratic government is supposed to serve the will of the electorate and instead it serves Mammon. We can't get our government back because money has a lock on it and doesn't want you to get it back. We got rid of King George and now we've got King Dollar. This is class warfare by wealth and the answer to it is class warfare by the ordinary citizen. It is our right to alter or abolish this mess and to institute new government to fix it. There is nothing else to be done or worth doing. We have to cut the connection between money and vote or we will forever fight over a shrinking pie. The common good is what grows and preserves the pie for the generations.

money talks and bullsh!t walks. no matter what you do to fix any system, human greed will always enter the fray. your obsession with socialist ideals has kept you in the lab for too long. you've failed to see your comrades' failure in the soviet union, cuba, china, north korea, and east germany. You need to disband with the bullsh!t and come up with more rational thoughts.

The best answer came from McCain. I'd suggest you read up on his bill.

China isn't a failure. The last I looked over a billion people were being fed, the crime rate was low, and everyone had a job.

china failed going down the socialist/communist line. they changed tactic 20-25 years ago. if you look under the hype, china is still a mess. the public sector is still too big; banks are highly insolvent, but are being propped up by a gov't that is too afraid to let them fall; the chinese currency is still pegged to the dollar, despite all the good things that might happen if it was to be allowed to float; democracy is still a remote dream for most chinese; everyone does not have a job (and neither should they); crime is high in china, worse, it is being done in collusion with gov't officials.

You need to take a harder look at china.

 

[Dari]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla

Originally posted by: Dari

did you fail to see all the reforms taking place in europe because of the hugh costs of socialism? Western europe has a strange mixture of socialism and capitalism. But, with the onslaught of globlization, it is not sustainable. Even america has some socialist values, but it is not has much as that in europe.

Do you really know the difference between communism and socialism? If you did, you'd know that a socialist system was set up in all the countries I mentioned.

I'd rather this discussion not deteriorate into a petty debate over definitions. You equated socialist ideals with the communist countries of the world. I simply pointed out that socialist ideals (and forms of socialism) exist in other countries that aren't "evil" communist countries that failed or are doomed to fail. Its all about striking a balance, and not all socialist ideals are doomed to failure.

those countries are communist in name only. no communist system has ever existed on earth. for it to work, it'd have to be devoid of most human characteristics. That was one of the main failures in communist theory.

It's rich to listen to the ignorant speak of human characteristics, as if they themselves knew what it means to be human. What you know Dari, is what it means to be motivated by fear and it's other face, greed.

Oh man, I was right. you and your fear theory are back in action again, as I thought they'd be. you remind me of that blind (I think) retarded guy in Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing, who goes around with a boombox around his neck, listening to the sermons of Malcolm X all day everyday. Everything, according to you, is based on fear. You are a fool.

Damn interesting that you'd be right when you didn't say anything. What I said was that everything about you is based on fear.

Please explain to me what universal principle your neocons rely upon for truth. Don't be afraid.

Universal principal? You really need to lay down the pipe and The Communist Manifesto, neither is healthy for your long-term health.