umm being an australian i am unfarmilar with your voting process, however if a machine can't read a 'vote' doesn't it make that vote inelligable, thus shouldn't be manually recounted? (if the standard is that a machine must be able to process a vote then that is a standard that must be followed!
<< True, except this time Gore is at the state court level. Bush was protesting Florida State Law at the Federal level.
That's a micron sized hair split. >>
Actually I think there's a HUGE difference here. Here's why:
Bush (the "trust the states" guy) went to FEDERAL court to try to stop the Florida State manual recounts. The judge said this was a STATE matter. (It was an easy reason for him to throw the request for an injunction to stop the manual recount out.)
Gore joined the effort at the STATE court, trying to get more time for the manual STATE recounts to happen. So, this STATE judge won't be able to throw out the request for the same reason, that the FEDERAL judge did.
ride525,
Beyond the political rhetoric of "Bush the states rights guy" the court where the action is filed is completely irrelevant. The issue is the attempt at circumvention of a Florida State law: In both cases. If Bush is denied, than justice dictates that Gore receive the same treatment. This is not a difficult concept.
<< but I am confident that they would be as objective as possible >>
Red,
But they can NEVER be completely objective. Ever. Machines are. It is as simple as that.
Russ, NCNE
Beyond the political rhetoric of "Bush the states rights guy" the court where the action is filed is completely irrelevant. The issue is the attempt at circumvention of a Florida State law: In both cases. If Bush is denied, than justice dictates that Gore receive the same treatment. This is not a difficult concept.
<< but I am confident that they would be as objective as possible >>
Red,
But they can NEVER be completely objective. Ever. Machines are. It is as simple as that.
Russ, NCNE
Michael
Elite member
- Nov 19, 1999
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I'm going to guess and say that the deadline will stand. I'm an accountant, not a lawyer expert in Florida State election law, so I'm not going to claim anything more than a guess.
The basis for my guess is the following:
1) "may" is written so that there is room in extraordinary situtions like a natural disaster to give some leeway to a county to get thier results in to be counted.
2) The SOS gets to decide the "may" part of "may"
3) There is no extraordinary situation in the counties asking for an extention:
a) there were three choices of action that could be followed, a complete manual recount being only one of them. A county choosing the most lengthy one is not the fault of the State and puts the oneous on completing their choice on teh county.
b) the machines have not been shown to be in serious error. Therefore, they can be used to recount in plenty of time to meet the deadline. If the county decided that it wants a higher level of "accuracy", then it must meet the deadline.
c) the closeness of the national results are moot. All the effected counties voted strongly for Gore. With those strong results added to the state total, Bush still wins. So it is very difficult to say that their voices will not be heard.
d) Palm Beach County is only going to start on Tuesday which I would say is negligent and the County's inability to perform a timely recount is not the responsibility of the State.
e) The State's legal opinion (as given when PBC voted to manually recount) was that there was not a need to manually recount.
The crux of my point of view is that a local decision (county) to recount by hand does not create a need for the State to change the deadline set by statute.
I read the county that filed to have the deadline extended's brief.
1) They're going to make it on time, so they don't need an extention
2) None of the "extraordinary" items they mentioned, with the possible exception of the malfunctioning counting machine, create a need to extend the deadline:
a) One machine was broken - plenty of time to use another machine or fix the broken one
b) A bag of ballots was found and turned it - make a decision on the validity of the ballots and either discard or machine count them
c) Memory card burned out - put another one in and recount.
Just my opinion, of course.
Michael
The basis for my guess is the following:
1) "may" is written so that there is room in extraordinary situtions like a natural disaster to give some leeway to a county to get thier results in to be counted.
2) The SOS gets to decide the "may" part of "may"
3) There is no extraordinary situation in the counties asking for an extention:
a) there were three choices of action that could be followed, a complete manual recount being only one of them. A county choosing the most lengthy one is not the fault of the State and puts the oneous on completing their choice on teh county.
b) the machines have not been shown to be in serious error. Therefore, they can be used to recount in plenty of time to meet the deadline. If the county decided that it wants a higher level of "accuracy", then it must meet the deadline.
c) the closeness of the national results are moot. All the effected counties voted strongly for Gore. With those strong results added to the state total, Bush still wins. So it is very difficult to say that their voices will not be heard.
d) Palm Beach County is only going to start on Tuesday which I would say is negligent and the County's inability to perform a timely recount is not the responsibility of the State.
e) The State's legal opinion (as given when PBC voted to manually recount) was that there was not a need to manually recount.
The crux of my point of view is that a local decision (county) to recount by hand does not create a need for the State to change the deadline set by statute.
I read the county that filed to have the deadline extended's brief.
1) They're going to make it on time, so they don't need an extention
2) None of the "extraordinary" items they mentioned, with the possible exception of the malfunctioning counting machine, create a need to extend the deadline:
a) One machine was broken - plenty of time to use another machine or fix the broken one
b) A bag of ballots was found and turned it - make a decision on the validity of the ballots and either discard or machine count them
c) Memory card burned out - put another one in and recount.
Just my opinion, of course.
Michael
<< Beyond the political rhetoric of "Bush the states rights guy" the court where the action is filed is completely irrelevant. The issue is the attempt at circumvention of a Florida State law: In both cases. If Bush is denied, than justice dictates that Gore receive the same treatment. This is not a difficult concept. >>
My impression on the Bush request for an injunction, was that the FEDERAL judge just said this was a STATE issue that needed to be settled. Perhaps, I'm reading too much of the pre and post hearing spin on this.
While Gore and the Florida citizens efforts to try and get more time may very well receive the same treatment, it is a different case, with different arguments.
It just gets more and more amazing....From CNN:
<< A motion filed Monday afternoon accused Palm Beach County Circuit Court Judge Stephen Rapp of telling a lawyer in a courthouse elevator that he had done his part to make sure "the Democrats are run out of the White House." A half-hour later, the motion says, the judge "made remarks in open court to the effect that he was familiar with the dispute over the form of the general election ballot in Palm Beach County and that anyone who made the mistake of voting for someone whom they did not intend to vote had no legal right to complain."
Rapp called the allegations "absolutely false," but decided to withdraw from the case after taking a half-hour recess Monday afternoon to consider the motion. >>
<< what makes you think they couldn't be as objective as you? >>
Maybe you've missed the point, Red. The PROCESS AND CRITERIA itself have changed, THREE times. How can even the most objective person accurately do the job, when the process itself is completely subjective. The answer is that they cannot.
<< The machinery just didn't do the job Russ, what other choice is there? >>
The machinery did the job just fine. Not only in Florida, but accross the country. It came up with the same outcome and an insignificant difference in vote totals after three times through. How can any thinking person believe that humans handling these ballots can possibly be more accurate? That doesn't make sense.
Russ, NCNE
Here is my take on the election fiasco and why the hand-count isn't fair the way that it is being implemented.
First of all, Russ has been making a good point that it is virtually impossible to tell the original intent of the voters after the ballots have been handled for almost a week. This is the same reason that the counts by machines change over time. If a chad was hanging by one corner when the person punched it, by the second or third recount, the chad may have fallen off. This is why after more and more recounts, more and more votes are recorded. Theoretically, the percentage of votes cast for each canidate shouldn't change. If Bush had 48.11111% of the vote and Gore had 48.11110% of the vote, the percentages shouldn't change but each canidate should gain approximately the same number of votes. A hand recount, becuase they are allowed to count more votes (if the chad is hanging by a corner) should not change the percentages but the total number of votes should go up for each canidate.
Here is where the issue comes in. Lets say that Bush had 65% of the vote and Gore had 35%. Again a recount would not change the percentages, theoretically. Lets say that there were 100 votes that couldn't be counted before. Using these percentages, Bush would get approximately 65 and Gore would get approximately 35. In this scenario, Bush would gain 30 votes on Gore.
I feel that Gore is perfectly justified for asking for a recount because the percentages for each canidate should not change. Here is the problem:
Gore is asking for a recount in only 4 counties. These counties have a large percentage of democratic votes. This is like the last example. Gore would be picking up more votes in these 4 counties than Bush would. This is because these 4 counties are using a different method of counting votes than the rest of Florida. If they were to do a full recount of the whole state, the percentages would not change and Bush would still win. If they only hand recount the 4 democratic counties, Gore picks up more votes than Bush and Gore may be able win the state. The only reason he would have won is because he didn't give all the votes a fair chance of being counted, but only counted the ones that would help him.
If you don't want to take the time to read the whole message above at least read this
The recount is only accurate if they recount the whole state. The way that Gore is trying to win the election is fraud!.
First of all, Russ has been making a good point that it is virtually impossible to tell the original intent of the voters after the ballots have been handled for almost a week. This is the same reason that the counts by machines change over time. If a chad was hanging by one corner when the person punched it, by the second or third recount, the chad may have fallen off. This is why after more and more recounts, more and more votes are recorded. Theoretically, the percentage of votes cast for each canidate shouldn't change. If Bush had 48.11111% of the vote and Gore had 48.11110% of the vote, the percentages shouldn't change but each canidate should gain approximately the same number of votes. A hand recount, becuase they are allowed to count more votes (if the chad is hanging by a corner) should not change the percentages but the total number of votes should go up for each canidate.
Here is where the issue comes in. Lets say that Bush had 65% of the vote and Gore had 35%. Again a recount would not change the percentages, theoretically. Lets say that there were 100 votes that couldn't be counted before. Using these percentages, Bush would get approximately 65 and Gore would get approximately 35. In this scenario, Bush would gain 30 votes on Gore.
I feel that Gore is perfectly justified for asking for a recount because the percentages for each canidate should not change. Here is the problem:
Gore is asking for a recount in only 4 counties. These counties have a large percentage of democratic votes. This is like the last example. Gore would be picking up more votes in these 4 counties than Bush would. This is because these 4 counties are using a different method of counting votes than the rest of Florida. If they were to do a full recount of the whole state, the percentages would not change and Bush would still win. If they only hand recount the 4 democratic counties, Gore picks up more votes than Bush and Gore may be able win the state. The only reason he would have won is because he didn't give all the votes a fair chance of being counted, but only counted the ones that would help him.
If you don't want to take the time to read the whole message above at least read this
The recount is only accurate if they recount the whole state. The way that Gore is trying to win the election is fraud!.
<< The way that Gore is trying to win the election is fraud!. >>
FRAUD: intentional deception to cause a person to give up property or some lawful right
Where is the deception? Everyone knows that Gore and others have asked for a few manual recounts. Bush hasn't asked for any yet.
Would you get the best idea of how the Florida voters voted if you manually looked at all the ballots? Of course, but someone has to request the manual recounts. The Bush folks have had every opportunity to ask for all the manual recounts they wanted to. So far, they have decided not to ask for any.
It's obvious Gore is vote fishing. He just happens to have a bit of law to back him up. "Fraud" might not be the correct word. I'd use "Unpatriotic", "indecent", "questionable" among others. The recounting was demanded to find more Gore votes, in any way possible. Now he and other groups are trying to break state law by getting a special extension to the certification deadline. Why? Didn't find enough votes, yet, need to fish longer.
So, the Rs, getting fed up with this mess (and concerned with a possible loss), go to court to block the latest recounts. They fail (rightly so, I feel) and look bad for trying that tactic. But you can't blame them for trying. Just sitting around letting Gore do what he wants wasn't getting anywhere.
So, the Rs, getting fed up with this mess (and concerned with a possible loss), go to court to block the latest recounts. They fail (rightly so, I feel) and look bad for trying that tactic. But you can't blame them for trying. Just sitting around letting Gore do what he wants wasn't getting anywhere.
Nothing new to add. Just wanted to note that this thread has been a rational, logical discussion of the issue. It'd be nice if it stayed that way.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
<< I am confident that they would be as objective as possible >>
In all likelihood, they probably will be though I question the objectivity of the ballot designer who may just give the benefit of the doubt to Gore "chads" because of her alleged mistake in the "butterfly" design. However, they are human and thus subject to the same foibles that we all "enjoy". Granted, the machines are human designed and subject to mistake, but the likelihood is far less guaranteed and the mistakes are consistent over the entire count, not variable with the hour of the day.
<< Do you really think these Senior Citizens actually voted for Buchanan? >>
No, I think there were voters for Buchanan in the county (much as in 1996), and that many of these senior citizens are caught in the hysteria of the "mistaken vote" syndrome.
Russ: Ride525 is correct in the assessment of the different cases. The federal judge declined jurisdiction over the matter because it is purely a state law matter. Federal courts do not decide state cases except under diversity of citizenship jurisdiction. I bet there was a healthy amount of "I don't want to put my hands anywhere near this damn thing" also. The state courts have jurisdiction over their laws and have great deference from federal courts in doing so. I am not entirely clear why Bush pursued a case in federal court because of the likelihood of this outcome though I suppose they had their reasons.
Now, this is VERY interesting:
<< Officials in Broward County, one of the four Demcratic stronghold counties considering a full hand recount, voted against proceeding with the process after conducting a recount of three precincts -- about 1 percent of the county's precincts -- and finding no significant errors. >>
And the democrat response:
<< Charles Lichtman, an attorney for the Democratic party in Broward County, told CNN that the Democrats will go to court to try to force the county to complete the recount. >>
Yep, the democrats are REAL interested in making sure Florida is allowed to manage their own affairs.
Russ, NCNE
<< Officials in Broward County, one of the four Demcratic stronghold counties considering a full hand recount, voted against proceeding with the process after conducting a recount of three precincts -- about 1 percent of the county's precincts -- and finding no significant errors. >>
And the democrat response:
<< Charles Lichtman, an attorney for the Democratic party in Broward County, told CNN that the Democrats will go to court to try to force the county to complete the recount. >>
Yep, the democrats are REAL interested in making sure Florida is allowed to manage their own affairs.
Russ, NCNE
This article confirms my fears in regard to a recount with interesting parallels to the current election. "How Democrats Steal Elections" I am not familiar with "World Net Daily", but I would assume it is probably the right-wing equivalent of the "The New Republic", so be forewarned.
<< Yep, the democrats are REAL interested in making sure Florida is allowed to manage their own affairs. >>
Anyone that thinks that either the Republicans or Democrats have the interest of all Floridians number one, is kidding themselves. Bush (yeah, I trust the states) goes to FEDERAL court to try and overturn Florida STATE's manual recounts. Gore asks for manual recounts where he senses problems, or where he might benefit the most. Bush, currently barely leading in the vote count, is reluctant to ask for recounts.
Both of these guys want to win the election. Period.
I think the US Supreme Court will be asked to decide at least some of this.
Oh, and thanks Russ for your thoughts about this thread staying on issue.
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