"No One" wins Florida -- and the election...

[SuperTool]

W.Charlie.
I totally agree with you. How come slot machines in Vegas are more hi-tech then the machines deciding our elections?

 

[Russ]

Of course, the entire manual recount issue may be moot:



<< Harris told campaign officials for Gore and Bush today that she would enforce the 5 p.m. Tuesday deadline for certifying presidential votes.

In a two-page statement, Harris said the state would certify Florida's ballot counts by 5 p.m. EST Tuesday -- one week after Election Day. Harris said state law requires such certification. >>



It's simply not possible to complete the process in time.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Thorn]

<< Interesting theory, where did you hear this? It seemed to be common consensus that overseas ballots were mainly military, and would INCREASE Bush's lead, not decrease it..... >>


Not considering the first votes coming in would be from countries like Israel (Jewish Americans voting for Lieberman), and from Europe. Votes from the far east (Korea, Singapore, and Vietnam) should be coming in Mon-Thurs as they take the longest amount of time to get to Fla (due to sheer distance/longer mail routes). I got this from NPR during lunch.

 

[AndrewR]

<< The fact that the count has changed, at all, is proof enough that the machine counts were flawed. So, by the same token, if Bush would accept an accurate recount, then we wouldn't have BS. Nuff Said. >>



As James Baker said, machines are neither Democrat nor Republican. Are you saying that somehow the machines were biased in favor of Republicans to give them an advantage in a mechanical count and recount? If not, then perhaps you should consider the possiblity that the machines rejected just as many Republican votes as Democratic, especially since the vote was so close. Therefore, whatever imperfections are inherent in a mechanical recount, they are balanced out evenly between the two parties -- quite unlike the imperfections inherent in a MANUAL recount by Democratic election officials.

Bush has accepted an accurate recount. Gore is the one who cannot take the result and wishes to &quot;divine the intent&quot; of the voters. The mere fact that biased individuals are looking to determine &quot;intent&quot; of voters should give anyone pause.

 

[SuperTool]

If I hear Jim Baker say &quot;Shanannagans&quot; again, I swear....

 

[ride525]

<< Are you saying that somehow the machines were biased in favor of Republicans to give them an advantage in a mechanical count and recount? >>


I don't think anyone has said that.

Russ said millions of ballots get machine rejected each year. There are requests for recounts. Let's make sure as many as possible of the ballots get counted.

 

[Russ]

ride525,

The point is that the problem is nothing new. The only OBJECTIVE way to determine the outcome is by machine. Do we manually recount every county in the country? How about Cook County, IL where 120,000 ballots were thrown out for the same reason? Where does it stop?

Russ, NCNE

 

[fdiskboy]

All Democratic and Left-wing whining aside, I've always heard that when you start trying to decide what people &quot;intended&quot; to do, you're in trouble.

 

[SuperTool]

Heard it on Fox. It turns out that the secretary of state is not only Bush supporter, but was offered an embassadorship by Dubya. Also, the counties involved in the recount constitute half the votes in Florida, so excluding them would seem like a very partisan move, and very hard sell.

 

[Russ]

<< I see nothing wrong with America going to the wall to make sure that Democracy truly has been served. >>



The ballots have already been counted three times each. The outcome has not changed. Florida has already gone further than any other state to ensure an accurate count.

Russ, NCNE

 

[ride525]

<< Do we manually recount every county in the country? >>



Russ,

I see no need to recount every county in the country. Where the results are close enough to warrant it, I would support manual recounts where they have been requested.

I don't think this isn't the first time a manual recount has been requested. When elections are close enough, I think manual recounts are a reasonable way to decide who has the most votes.

 

[Russ]

<< It turns out that the secretary of state is not only Bush supporter, but was offered an embassadorship by Dubya. >>



So? The Judge that rejected Bush's efforts is a Clinton appointee. The state Attorney General is Gore's state campaign chairman. Fully 2/3's of election officials in the state are democrats.

The law on the deadline is clear and it was not written by the SOS. If Bush's efforts were rejected based on state law, any deadline extension should also be. You can't have it both ways.

So, what was your point?

Russ, NCNE

 

[PCAddict]

Ok, I have finally become sick and tired of this fiasco of an election.

The election is suck.
Florida is suck.
The legal wrangling is suck.
Other countries laughing at us is suck.
The media is suck.
And most importantly, Al Gore is suck.

Thank you. Have a nice day.

 

[SJ]

county by county

Don't know if this was posted yet. And thanks for who ever corrected me, but the numbers from the recounts didn't match up and never will. Yep and the State Attorney General is in Gores pocket. However the democrat Bob Crawford agrees with Harris





<< In a morning news conference, Bob Crawford -- a Democratic member of the Florida state canvassing commission, which is charged with certifying the statewide vote count -- said there was no getting around the statute cited by Harris. >>





<< I have to honor this election by following my duties as outlined in Florida statute,&quot; he added. &quot;The instructions to me are clear. We hope that all the counties will get the votes in by 5 p.m. ... The only thing that would change it would be a court order extending the statute.&quot; >>

 

[SJ]

Also lets not forget that in a past election(in the last 4 years forget the exact date, Ill look it up) the same Palm Beach county would not let a republican have a hand recount when she lost by a meer 17 votes.

 

[ride525]

SJ,

Yeah interesting map....Bush wins the US land area...so what?

(Others point out that Gore won the popular vote....I'd repeat...so what?)

From my limited information on Florida law and deadlines, I didn't see another direction that the Secretary of State could go.....It looked like 5pm Tuesday was the deadline, although I did see that there was another Florida law that may conflict somewhat....Too bad if it goes this way.....doesn't seem enough time to allow for manual recounts....

And that info about the Republican in Palm County not getting a manual recount is interesting....do you have a link or more info...?

 

[SJ]

I just thought it was an interesting map. Im still looking should have it in a minute.

 

[SJ]

Some are gonna say its biased, but the info it correct. Biased or not, the election refered to is a fact

 

[ride525]

SJ,

Good find.....while the article looks to be written by a Republican, I would agree....that, in my opinion, that 13 vote margin would have been small enough to do warrant a manual recount, even though the district was much smaller than the entire county.

However the election commision vote in the previous election maybe shouldn't be taken as very partisan, since it was in a GOP primary, where the candidates were all from the same party.

It's interesting to note that the recount request was turned down at all. I thought in California, that any candidate could request and get a recount, but was liable for the cost of the recount.

 

[Russ]

<< Exactly Russ, what makes you think the results will change? >>



Of course it would change because there is NO OBJECTIVE CRITERIA. What constitutes a vote? Is one corner of the chad dangling? Does it have a little dimple in it? The ballots have been manhandled for days. It is NOT possible to tell by the condition of the chad what the vote should be.

The entire process is subject to interpretation of the BIASED (either way) human counting the ballot and trying to &quot;guess&quot; the intent of the voter. The only objective approach is what has already been done. The machine counts only those votes that are punched all the way through.

The idea of trying to &quot;guess&quot; is ludicrous.

Russ, NCNE

 

[SJ]

What I really see happening is, if Gore gets the deadline pushed back in court, Bush asks for full hand recounts in all of Florida. Motion passes, Gore sues Florida to stop it saying it violates state law because they missed the deadline. A democrat judge sides with Gore. Bush takes it to the Supremes, Bush wins in the Supremes but two days before Gore is sworn in.

 

[AndrewR]

Red:
First question: Would you consider a machine or a person (a Democratic person in this case) more objective?

Second question: Would you term &quot;determining the intent of the voter&quot; to be a subjective process?

Third question: Does the lack of a definitive (or any statutory) standard for counting these questionable ballots imply a subjective process?

Last question: Is a subjective or an objective count preferable?

 

[Russ]

<< Vice President Al Gore's legal team in Florida moved into state court Monday to block Florida's secretary of state from ending the vote certification process Tuesday afternoon. >>



Hopefully, justice will prevail and Gore will receive the same treatment Bush received. The issue is the same: Florida State Law.

Russ, NCNE

 

[ride525]

<< The issue is the same: Florida State Law. >>



True, except this time Gore is at the state court level. Bush was protesting Florida State Law at the Federal level. Federal judge seemed to be saying, this is an issue for states to decide.

Be interesting to see how this goes. The Florida time limit of 7 days seems pretty clear. I've heard there was some law that conflicted, though. (All laws seem to have conflicting ones, that's what keeps lawyers and judges so busy... )

I just don't see how Florida law could expect a manual recount to be accomplished just 7 days after the polls close. (Even if you started it at 9pm on election day, it might be tough.)

 

[Russ]

<< True, except this time Gore is at the state court level. Bush was protesting Florida State Law at the Federal level. >>



That's a micron sized hair split.

Russ, NCNE