No one around? No turn signal needed!

Mackie2k

Senior member
May 18, 2000
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Link to Article

West Virginia Supreme Court: Turn Signal Optional On Empty Road
West Virginia Supreme Court rules turn signal is unnecessary if nobody is around to see it.

Police in West Virginia may no longer issue tickets to motorists for failure to signal without also showing another vehicle may have been affected by the maneuver, according to a ruling issued Monday by the state supreme court. Justices took up the issue in the context of a June 25, 2006 traffic stop in which West Virginia State Trooper C.T. Kessel pulled over Chad R. Clower on US 50 in the city of Romney.

According to Kessel, the road was deserted that night when he saw Clower's car two full city blocks ahead. After Clower made a right-hand turn without signaling, Kessel pounced. At the time, Clower was neither speeding nor weaving and Kessel had noted nothing unusual about the man's driving beyond the lack of a signal. In the course of the stop, however, Kessel noticed that Clower's eyes were "glassy" and he immediately suspected the man had been driving under the influence of alcohol.

Clower, in fact, has a glass eye. But because he blew .18 on a breathalyzer, Clower was charged with DUI and the state Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) suspended his license. Clower appealed and the high court limited itself to considering only the question of whether Kessel was justified in initiating the traffic stop that night. The DMV argued that the law is the law and no exception is made in the turn signal statute for turns made on deserted roads.

"Any stop or turn signal when required herein shall be given either by means of the hand and arm or by a signal lamp or lamps or mechanical signal device," the code under which Clower was charged, 17C-8-9, states.

Clower countered that the signal law must be read within the context of another provision covering turns which does allow for exceptions.

"No person shall so turn any vehicle without giving an appropriate signal in the manner hereinafter provided in the event any other traffic may be affected by such movement," West Virginia Code 17C-8-8(a) states.

The supreme court agreed that this provision must be read in combination with the signal statute.

"It is clear that the legislature sought to require a motorist to warn others of the motorist's intent to make a turn," Justice Menis E. Ketchum wrote for the court. "It is equally clear that the legislature understood that in some situations a turn signal would serve no purpose and the legislature specifically defined such a situation as being when 'no other traffic may be affected by the movement.' A clear example this latter situation is where a driver is on an isolated country road, with no other cars or pedestrians in sight, and the driver turns at an intersection without using a turn signal. A driver in such an example clearly would not have violated W.Va. Code, 17C-8-9 as there was no other person who could have benefited from a turn signal."

Since the trooper had been at least a block away by the time that the turn was completed, the court found that there was no way that the trooper could have been affected either by the turn itself or the lack of a signal. For that reason, the court found no crime had been committed and the trooper had no business pulling over Clower.

This is amazing. I love when the little guy takes on the man and wins. The guy totally got his DUI dropped.....A big FU to police
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
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Originally posted by: Mackie2k
This is amazing. I love when the little guy takes on the man and wins. The guy totally got his DUI dropped.....A big FU to police

And it's also a big FU to anyone who has ever had any family or friend hit by a drunk driver.

Whether you give a damn or not, there is a reason why some police officers do what they do, and it's not always about "abusing power and authority".
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Hmmm... although I believe that blinkers should be required universally for turns and/or lane changes, I do think that some common sense can be applied to the statutes, which is what happened here. However, considering the guy had a DUI with that stop and that people should be in the habit of signaling every time (as there may be a vehicle you are unaware of on the road), I am a bit leery of the precedent this decision sets.
 

Mackie2k

Senior member
May 18, 2000
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Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Mackie2k
This is amazing. I love when the little guy takes on the man and wins. The guy totally got his DUI dropped.....A big FU to police

And it's also a big FU to anyone who has ever had any family or friend hit by a drunk driver.

Whether you give a damn or not, there is a reason why some police officers do what they do, and it's not always about "abusing power and authority".

I never said that the officer was abusing power, but it's rediculous that they pulled him over without any cause.

It's not a big FU to anyone hit by a drunk driver, it's following the law the way it was intended. Police will use any excuse under the sun to harass and pull you over to make money. Period.

If you don't have a good reason to pull someone over, don't do it.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Yay, drinking and driving is cool! :roll:

Grow up. The anti-authority thing should leave you at about 21. (This is coming from someone who did time for DUI)
 

PokerGuy

Lifer
Jul 2, 2005
13,650
201
101
The ruling seems reasonable, given the WVA law, and some common sense in the judicial system is a rare treat. Still, the fact that someone "got away" with a DUI on a technicality is certainly not something I'd consider a reason for celebration.

The cop should have just followed him for a while to observe. If he was drunk, the officer could have seen signs of it and had appropriate reason for the stop.
 

sactoking

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2007
7,648
2,924
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It's good the the VA SC allowed common sense in the interpretation of the law.

It's bad that someone got to skate on a DUI because of it.

There's never a good excuse for DUI.
 

cubeless

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2001
4,295
1
81
the bullshit thing herre is that you use your blinkerrs all the time so that in the case that you don't happen to notice that there was someone around all know what is going on...

so now all i have to say is that i didn't see someone... it's a bad call all around...

and the dude was blitzed, not just a little drunk...
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Reasonable law. I personally don't use my signal unless others are around, but using it as a gotcha for a drunk fvck asshole driver is a fail.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,883
136
Originally posted by: Robor
Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).

QFT
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,918
2,883
136
Just as an example, when I go running at night it pisses me off to no end when a car doesn't use their turn signal. I've almost gotten hit once or twice because I keep running (crossing the road at an intersection) when some idiot doesn't use his turn signal and just decides to turn down that road. Assholes.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
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91
Originally posted by: Mackie2k
"Any stop or turn signal when required herein shall be given either by means of the hand and arm or by a signal lamp or lamps or mechanical signal device," the code under which Clower was charged, 17C-8-9, states.

"No person shall so turn any vehicle without giving an appropriate signal in the manner hereinafter provided in the event any other traffic may be affected by such movement," West Virginia Code 17C-8-8(a) states.

The supreme court agreed that this provision must be read in combination with the signal statute.

Simple fix for the legislature which will undoubtedly be passed during the next session:

WVC 17C-8-8(a) is hereby amended to read, "No person shall so turn any vehicle without giving an appropriate signal in the manner hereinafter provided."

Court decision becomes irrelevant.

Legally, the court's decision was indeed correct. The law, as written, clearly restricted the duty to signal to instances where other traffic may be affected. However, a very simple change to the WVC will resolve that issue and render the court's decision irrelevant to future cases.

ZV
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
....

So uh...if someone makes a turn without a turn signal and no one sees it....can the cops who aren't there pull him over?

This is very confusing.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
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Originally posted by: Atreus21
....

So uh...if someone makes a turn without a turn signal and no one sees it....can the cops who aren't there pull him over?

This is very confusing.

No, it is saying that you only have to use your turn signal if it could affect other motorists. In this case the cop was two blocks away when he saw the lack of signal and nobody else was present.
 

Atreus21

Lifer
Aug 21, 2007
12,001
571
126
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: Atreus21
....

So uh...if someone makes a turn without a turn signal and no one sees it....can the cops who aren't there pull him over?

This is very confusing.

No, it is saying that you only have to use your turn signal if it could affect other motorists. In this case the cop was two blocks away when he saw the lack of signal and nobody else was present.

Oh I see.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Originally posted by: Atreus21
....

So uh...if someone makes a turn without a turn signal and no one sees it....can the cops who aren't there pull him over?

This is very confusing.

I don't use my turn signals to prevent cops from pulling me over. I use my turn signals to let other people know I'm turning or changing lanes. It's common courtesy - or at least it should be. ;)
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Robor
Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).

Take a drive in the country sometime and you will figure it out.
 

Robor

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
16,979
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Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Robor
Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).

Take a drive in the country sometime and you will figure it out.

If that's how people in 'the country' drive they should be banned from the city. :p
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: cubby1223
Originally posted by: Mackie2k
This is amazing. I love when the little guy takes on the man and wins. The guy totally got his DUI dropped.....A big FU to police

And it's also a big FU to anyone who has ever had any family or friend hit by a drunk driver.

Whether you give a damn or not, there is a reason why some police officers do what they do, and it's not always about "abusing power and authority".

The fact his DUI was thrown out is secondary. The issue as described above was whether the driver could be pulled over for not using a turn signal. The WVSC said in this case no, so the DUI has to be thrown out.

Thankfully, this idiot driver did not hurt anyone.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,871
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Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Robor
Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).

QFT

:thumbsup:

Edit: I use my turn signals as I use my seatbelt, as a matter of "no-exceptions" safety habit. Just because YOU don't see another vehicle or pedestrian doesn't mean there isn't one.
 

dphantom

Diamond Member
Jan 14, 2005
4,763
327
126
Originally posted by: Robor
Originally posted by: dphantom
Originally posted by: Robor
Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).

Take a drive in the country sometime and you will figure it out.

If that's how people in 'the country' drive they should be banned from the city. :p

Can't argue with you there. :p

Quick story just as an example. I was driving in downtown Rapid City, SD (no jokes!!) years ago and this farmer/rancher is just in front of me a lane over on a 5 lane street. He decides to make a left turn so does across all 5 lanes in front of me and oncoming traffic. No turn signal, just an abrupt left turn.

Anyway, I grew up out of town and traffic was a half dozen cars an hour on our road.
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Reasonable law. I personally don't use my signal unless others are around, but using it as a gotcha for a drunk fvck asshole driver is a fail.
Yeah.. save that turn signal bulb life and you from burning a 1/16th of a calorie using that damn thing when you can! :p
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,784
6,343
126
Originally posted by: Perknose
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Robor
Stupid move. How does one really know 'no one is around'? :confused:

Anyway, drivers who actually use turn signals do it without thinking. It's like checking your mirrors before you change lanes or paying attention to who is beside/behind you. Chances are if you 'think' about using signals you aren't using them very well (IMHO).

QFT

:thumbsup:

Edit: I use my turn signals as I use my seatbelt, as a matter of "no-exceptions" safety habit. Just because YOU don't see another vehicle or pedestrian doesn't mean there isn't one.

yup, bad Law.
 

I Saw OJ

Diamond Member
Dec 13, 2004
4,923
2
76
People with only one eye can drive? Hows depth perception work in their case?