No murder conviction in Mexican immigrant's death

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Sacrilege

Senior member
Sep 6, 2007
647
0
0
I think conservatives in this thread deceive themselves if they think race is not a factor. Mexicans are despised by many conservative Americans for a number of reasons, among them:

they are brown skinned
they do not share the values that were brought by Anglo/Germanic/Northern European culture that have made America great
they are un-educated compared to many Americans

The fact that they have entered the country without papers is a legitimate concern, but for many conservatives this is not the primary concern. If America had a flood of illegal white Canadians, or illegal Scandinavians, we would not see the hostility that we see toward illegal Mexicans.

Many years ago, the US issued racial quotas to deal limit the number of immigrants of "undesirable" races. Many immigrants, such as Chinese people, did not have full rights such as the right to own property. I think if there were a Republican majority, the situation would be ripe for similar legislation today.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
35,252
2,387
126
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Many years ago, the US issued racial quotas to deal limit the number of immigrants of "undesirable" races. Many immigrants, such as Chinese people, did not have full rights such as the right to own property. I think if there were a Republican majority, the situation would be ripe for similar legislation today.

Wow.
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
The fact that they have entered the country without papers is a legitimate concern, but for many conservatives this is not the primary concern. If America had a flood of illegal white Canadians, or illegal Scandinavians, we would not see the hostility that we see toward illegal Mexicans.

I don't agree with you on that. You think Americans would roll out the red carpet at airport, welcoming any illegal whites who would use hospital here and not pay the bill, or jammed public school overcrowding classrooms while illegal white Viking gangs smuggled drugs in, and Finnish and Swedish men lowered American wages by working much cheaper, and Americans would be okay with that with a smiling face?




 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: babylon5

I don't agree with you on that. You think Americans would roll out the red carpet at airport, welcoming any illegal whites who would use hospital here and not pay the bill, or jammed public school overcrowding classrooms while illegal white Viking gangs smuggled drugs in, and Finnish and Swedish men lowered American wages by working much cheaper, and Americans would be okay with that with a smiling face?

The nativism and xenophobia being displayed in America today is nothing new. We used to feel the exact same way about German immigrants, Irish immigrants, Chinese immigrants, you name it. Whatever argument you have against the Mexicans, it has probably been used in the past against the groups I just mentioned. It was silly then, and it's silly now. For whatever reason America seems to require an immigrant group to fear.
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: babylon5

I don't agree with you on that. You think Americans would roll out the red carpet at airport, welcoming any illegal whites who would use hospital here and not pay the bill, or jammed public school overcrowding classrooms while illegal white Viking gangs smuggled drugs in, and Finnish and Swedish men lowered American wages by working much cheaper, and Americans would be okay with that with a smiling face?

The nativism and xenophobia being displayed in America today is nothing new. We used to feel the exact same way about German immigrants, Irish immigrants, Chinese immigrants, you name it. Whatever argument you have against the Mexicans, it has probably been used in the past against the groups I just mentioned. It was silly then, and it's silly now. For whatever reason America seems to require an immigrant group to fear.

No country on earth is free of xenophobia or racists attitude (if there is, I like to know). But America is not as xenophobic as you like to believe. We wouldn't have Obama if we are still just like back in 19th, or even 20th century. And if America is as racist as you think, why do you think legal and illegal immigrants of color want to come here if most they got is racist attitude by white Americans?

It is even silly that you think anyone who think Illegal Immigration is a problem must be all racist, but dont' want to discuss the negative problems that brought with it, and ignore it. BTW, if Americans hate brown people as much as you think, explain to me why Americans (yes, including whites) pay money to buy movie tickets to see Jennifer Lopez starring in American movies? Why people embrace Latin music such as Ricky Martin? Shakira? Santana? Or see TV show daily hosted by George Lopez on "Extra:? Maybe I am mistaken that they are all white?


 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Speaking of a country that don't like brown people:


Mexico Harsh to Undocumented Migrants

By MARK STEVENSON, Associated Press Writer

Tue Apr 18, 6:08 PM ET

Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money.

While migrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

And though Mexico demands humane treatment for its citizens who migrate to the U.S., regardless of their legal status, Mexico provides few protections for migrants on its own soil. The issue simply isn't on the country's political agenda, perhaps because migrants make up only 0.5 percent of the population, or about 500,000 people ? compared with 12 percent in the United States.

The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant.

Virginia Sanchez, who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, said such shootings in Tultitlan are common.

"At night, you hear the gunshots, and it's the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants," she said. "It's not fair to kill these people. It's not fair in the United States and it's not fair here."

Undocumented Central American migrants complain much more about how they are treated by Mexican officials than about authorities on the U.S. side of the border, where migrants may resent being caught but often praise the professionalism of the agents scouring the desert for their trail.

"If you're carrying any money, they take it from you ? federal, state, local police, all of them," said Carlos Lopez, a 28-year-old farmhand from Guatemala crouching in a field near the tracks in Tultitlan, waiting to climb onto a northbound freight train.

Lopez said he had been shaken down repeatedly in 15 days of traveling through Mexico.

"The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river," he said. "They said, 'You can't cross ... unless you leave something for us.'"

Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.

"If you're on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, 'Get out of here,'" Ramos said.

Maria Elena Gonzalez, who lives near the tracks, said female migrants often complain about abusive police.

"They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them," she said.

Others said they had seen migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from a train.

The Mexican government acknowledges that many federal, state and local officials are on the take from the people-smugglers who move hundreds of thousands of Central Americans north, and that migrants are particularly vulnerable to abuse by corrupt police.

The National Human Rights Commission, a government-funded agency, documented the abuses south of the U.S. border in a December report.

"One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues is the contradiction in demanding that the North respect migrants' rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South," commission president Jose Luis Soberanes said.

In the United States, mostly Mexican immigrants have staged rallies pressuring Congress to grant amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants rather than making them felons and deputizing police to deport them. The Mexican government has spoken out in support of the immigrants' cause.

While Interior Secretary Carlos Abascal said Monday that "Mexico is a country with a clear, defined and generous policy toward migrants," the nation of 105 million has legalized only 15,000 immigrants in the past five years, and many undocumented migrants who are detained are deported.

Although Mexico objects to U.S. authorities detaining Mexican immigrants, police and soldiers usually cause the most trouble for migrants in Mexico, even though they aren't technically authorized to enforce immigration laws.

And while Mexicans denounce the criminalization of their citizens living without papers in the United States, Mexican law classifies undocumented immigration as a felony punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.

The number of undocumented migrants detained in Mexico almost doubled from 138,061 in 2002 to 240,269 last year. Forty-two percent were Guatemalan, 33 percent Honduran and most of the rest Salvadoran.

Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. Last year, then-director of Mexico's immigration agency, Magdalena Carral, said an increasing number of Central Americans were staying in Mexico, rather than just passing through on their way to the U.S.

She said sectors of the Mexican economy facing labor shortages often use undocumented workers because the legal process for work visas is inefficient.

Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: babylon5

No country on earth is free of xenophobia or racists attitude (if there is, I like to know). But America is not as xenophobic as you like to believe. We wouldn't have Obama if we are still just like back in 19th, or even 20th century. And if America is as racist as you think, why do you think legal and illegal immigrants of color want to come here if most they got is racist attitude by white Americans?

It is even silly that you think anyone who think Illegal Immigration is a problem must be all racist, but dont' want to discuss the negative problems that brought with it, and ignore it. BTW, if Americans hate brown people as much as you think, explain to me why Americans (yes, including whites) pay money to buy movie tickets to see Jennifer Lopez starring in American movies? Why people embrace Latin music such as Ricky Martin? Shakira? Santana? Or see TV show daily hosted by George Lopez on "Extra:? Maybe I am mistaken that they are all white?

Of course no country is free from this problem, but it doesn't change the fact that it's a problem.

While America most certainly does have a race problem, I never even mentioned it. I said xenophobia, not racism.
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
I don't disagree with you there is a race problem in America. Our past, like the Chinese example someone shown, still has lingering effects. Blacks still have negative stereotypes even if Obama is President. But to follow the thread, I dont' believe Illegal whites would be treated too kindly either. We love to bash the French (not shaved, and remember Freedom Fries), and British (bad teeth). Maybe American just like Americans, I dont 'know.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: babylon5
I don't disagree with you there is a race problem in America. Our past, like the Chinese example someone shown, still has lingering effects. Blacks still have negative stereotypes even if Obama is President. But to follow the thread, I dont' believe Illegal whites would be treated too kindly either. We love to bash the French (not shaved, and remember Freedom Fries), and British (bad teeth). Maybe American just like Americans, I dont 'know.

While immigration laws were way different in the past, Americans have tended to treat any group that has immigrated in large numbers with hostility. The German immigrants back in Ben Franklin's day were subject to all the same xenophobia as the Mexicans are today, the Irish and Italians also suffered the same fate and we consider them white. (although interestingly enough they were NOT considered white back in those times.)
 

babylon5

Golden Member
Dec 11, 2000
1,363
1
0
Maybe America just don't like foreigners, no matter what color or langauge (Irish are white and speak English, but it didn't matter to Americans). I think it's natural that humans treat other incoming groups in large numbers with certain hostility, whether it's America, Mexico, Middle East, any place on earth. I dont' think it's right at all, but it's human nature. I am not sure it can be changed. I think there is some racist attitude against illegal immigrants just like the past even now, but that doesn't neglect the negative problems that occurred as a result. Even Obama acknowledges in his speech the other night that there are problems assoicated with this issue. We need some kind of political immigration reform, but the explosive nature of this topic as we see in this thread, just delay any reform possible again and again. -sigh-
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: babylon5
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: babylon5

I don't agree with you on that. You think Americans would roll out the red carpet at airport, welcoming any illegal whites who would use hospital here and not pay the bill, or jammed public school overcrowding classrooms while illegal white Viking gangs smuggled drugs in, and Finnish and Swedish men lowered American wages by working much cheaper, and Americans would be okay with that with a smiling face?

The nativism and xenophobia being displayed in America today is nothing new. We used to feel the exact same way about German immigrants, Irish immigrants, Chinese immigrants, you name it. Whatever argument you have against the Mexicans, it has probably been used in the past against the groups I just mentioned. It was silly then, and it's silly now. For whatever reason America seems to require an immigrant group to fear.

No country on earth is free of xenophobia or racists attitude (if there is, I like to know). But America is not as xenophobic as you like to believe. We wouldn't have Obama if we are still just like back in 19th, or even 20th century. And if America is as racist as you think, why do you think legal and illegal immigrants of color want to come here if most they got is racist attitude by white Americans?

It is even silly that you think anyone who think Illegal Immigration is a problem must be all racist, but dont' want to discuss the negative problems that brought with it, and ignore it. BTW, if Americans hate brown people as much as you think, explain to me why Americans (yes, including whites) pay money to buy movie tickets to see Jennifer Lopez starring in American movies? Why people embrace Latin music such as Ricky Martin? Shakira? Santana? Or see TV show daily hosted by George Lopez on "Extra:? Maybe I am mistaken that they are all white?

"TEH AMERIKKKA IS TEH DEVIL!!!" liberal knee-jerk is not going to stop just because a (D) is in office.

 

smack Down

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
4,507
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: babylon5
I don't disagree with you there is a race problem in America. Our past, like the Chinese example someone shown, still has lingering effects. Blacks still have negative stereotypes even if Obama is President. But to follow the thread, I dont' believe Illegal whites would be treated too kindly either. We love to bash the French (not shaved, and remember Freedom Fries), and British (bad teeth). Maybe American just like Americans, I dont 'know.

While immigration laws were way different in the past, Americans have tended to treat any group that has immigrated in large numbers with hostility. The German immigrants back in Ben Franklin's day were subject to all the same xenophobia as the Mexicans are today, the Irish and Italians also suffered the same fate and we consider them white. (although interestingly enough they were NOT considered white back in those times.)

It is all about the Benjamin baby. Immigrants get treated like crap because they are under cut wages. Has nothing to do with xenophobia or racism.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
There has always been a sense of "Us vs Them" in the United States. In some eastern states you had to be a Protestant to hold public office. This is not really centered on Race, it can be based on country of origin or any ethnic or cultural group. However, "Legal vs Illegal" is a completely new dynamic. It is called protecting what is yours and protecting a National Identitiy.
 

SirStev0

Lifer
Nov 13, 2003
10,449
6
81
Hey all.

Interestingly, I am actually from Frackville the town right next door to Shendo (as we lovingly call it). Shendo for many years has been a hell hole with huge unemployment and little education. It has also been full of ethnic fighting. It is one of those few small town places that still have very ethnic neighborhoods. There is an italian region, a polish/eastern europe region, an irish area, etc. It is a really unusual place growing up. It is basically slums from the old coal mining company houses. And there were always fights. Everybody hated everybody.

The only time we used to go over to Shendo was for beer because they'd serve any girl in a low cut shirt. At those times everyone was all Gangsta and you usually didn't stick around unless you wanted to do some bruising.

It has only been in the last 5-6 years that Mexicans have entered the town. There are a huge amount of Cabbage and potato and corn farms in the Ringtown valley a few miles away and Shendo offered ridiculously cheap living. The inner fighting of the town turned over to general fighting with the Mexicans. There were fight every couple weeks. A few years before 3 illegals were found stabbed in the woods. It is the kind of stuff that just happened.

The reason this whole case made big news is because the one kid, Piekarsky. Well it turns out his mom is involved (wink wink) with one of the local cops in the town and when the whole event went down, the police swept it under the rug. This case may have came back not guilty but there is still huge investigations going on with the chief of police and other officers. It is huge controversy in my area.
Also pretty interesting is that the county District Attorney didn't try the case. A huge publicity case with a national spot light and the prosecutor turns out to be the ADA with little experience. The whole thing is a huge circus. And there is a lot of muttering that there was some "Good Old Boy" connections being used. Believe me, this isn't coming from people who are on the Illegal's side. A lot of people were happy that "people took care of those boys".

The saddest fact is that in the end a person's life was taken. From what I have heard, some of the final blows involved "curb stomping". These kids were out for blood and what two of them got was simple assault (which most think won't even give them jail time). One of the four actually took a plea bargain early in the case and was sentenced to four years. It looks like the other 3 will get off scotch free.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: OCguy

"TEH AMERIKKKA IS TEH DEVIL!!!" liberal knee-jerk is not going to stop just because a (D) is in office.

I'm sorry that reality is such an inconvenience for you.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: OCguy
Originally posted by: babylon5
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: babylon5

I don't agree with you on that. You think Americans would roll out the red carpet at airport, welcoming any illegal whites who would use hospital here and not pay the bill, or jammed public school overcrowding classrooms while illegal white Viking gangs smuggled drugs in, and Finnish and Swedish men lowered American wages by working much cheaper, and Americans would be okay with that with a smiling face?

The nativism and xenophobia being displayed in America today is nothing new. We used to feel the exact same way about German immigrants, Irish immigrants, Chinese immigrants, you name it. Whatever argument you have against the Mexicans, it has probably been used in the past against the groups I just mentioned. It was silly then, and it's silly now. For whatever reason America seems to require an immigrant group to fear.

No country on earth is free of xenophobia or racists attitude (if there is, I like to know). But America is not as xenophobic as you like to believe. We wouldn't have Obama if we are still just like back in 19th, or even 20th century. And if America is as racist as you think, why do you think legal and illegal immigrants of color want to come here if most they got is racist attitude by white Americans?

It is even silly that you think anyone who think Illegal Immigration is a problem must be all racist, but dont' want to discuss the negative problems that brought with it, and ignore it. BTW, if Americans hate brown people as much as you think, explain to me why Americans (yes, including whites) pay money to buy movie tickets to see Jennifer Lopez starring in American movies? Why people embrace Latin music such as Ricky Martin? Shakira? Santana? Or see TV show daily hosted by George Lopez on "Extra:? Maybe I am mistaken that they are all white?

"TEH AMERIKKKA IS TEH DEVIL!!!" liberal knee-jerk is not going to stop just because a (D) is in office.

Originally posted by: Phokus
I'm sure the republicans in this forum are crying about the miscarriage of justice here.

 

n yusef

Platinum Member
Feb 20, 2005
2,158
1
0
There is definitely a racial/national component to the current anti-immigration sentiment. If there wasn't, then documented Hispanic (Mexican and otherwise) immigrants and Hispanic Americans would not be victims of prejudice and discrimination. If there wasn't, then non-Hispanic undocumented immigrants would face more discrimination than they do.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: OCguy

"TEH AMERIKKKA IS TEH DEVIL!!!" liberal knee-jerk is not going to stop just because a (D) is in office.

Originally posted by: Phokus
I'm sure the republicans in this forum are crying about the miscarriage of justice here.

Originally posted by: OCguy
Im sure your trolling ass is just mad that someone instead of yourself started a race-baiting thread.

 

dahunan

Lifer
Jan 10, 2002
18,191
3
0
White people should murder Illegal Aliens.. it only makes sense.. right?

So, did they murder him or just tickle him to death by accident

Some of the people in this thread alone mention that he is less of a human being than a resident of america.. WTF... you are SICK IN THE HEART.. sad that the world has to have your thoughts

 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: piasabird
There has always been a sense of "Us vs Them" in the United States. In some eastern states you had to be a Protestant to hold public office. This is not really centered on Race, it can be based on country of origin or any ethnic or cultural group. However, "Legal vs Illegal" is a completely new dynamic. It is called protecting what is yours and protecting a National Identitiy.

We need to be a one language country or we will splinter.

Can anyone say they're surprised that immigrants who don't feel they need to come here legally also don't feel they need to learn "our" language?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,225
55,768
136
Originally posted by: nobodyknows

We need to be a one language country or we will splinter.

Can anyone say they're surprised that immigrants who don't feel they need to come here legally also don't feel they need to learn "our" language?

The US has never been a one language country at any point in its history. We splintered once, but that happened to be between all the English speaking guys.
 

nobodyknows

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2008
5,474
0
0
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Originally posted by: nobodyknows

We need to be a one language country or we will splinter.

Can anyone say they're surprised that immigrants who don't feel they need to come here legally also don't feel they need to learn "our" language?

The US has never been a one language country at any point in its history. We splintered once, but that happened to be between all the English speaking guys.

Despite your attempt to misdirect, English has always been our unofficial language.

Many things can "splinter" a coun trty, but when you have more then one language it would be even easier to do. Free Quebec!!!
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
779
126
Originally posted by: OCguy
Originally posted by: Phokus
Originally posted by: OCguy

"TEH AMERIKKKA IS TEH DEVIL!!!" liberal knee-jerk is not going to stop just because a (D) is in office.

Originally posted by: Phokus
I'm sure the republicans in this forum are crying about the miscarriage of justice here.

Originally posted by: OCguy
Im sure your trolling ass is just mad that someone instead of yourself started a race-baiting thread.

Why don't you just say that bigotry against minorities doesn't exist in America, OCguy? Because that's what you basically believe.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,224
37
91
Originally posted by: Phokus

Why don't you just say that bigotry against minorities doesn't exist in America, OCguy? Because that's what you basically believe.


It exists in every country in the world, and within every community. Racism is perpetrated by and against minorities every day.

Your hardon for painting all whites/conservatives as racist is old at this point. Every race/nation/culture/religion has their idiots. The broad-brushing and race-baiting by you will hopefully earn you a perma-ban.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
From reading the article it looks like the US Citizens called a foreigner some names. Then the Foreigner decided he would escalate the confrontation and charged ran in and tried to take to a physical level. Then after that the US Citizens simply defended themselves from the physical confrontation.

The whole affair is sad but in the USA we have freedom of speech. Just because someone calls you a name, that does not give you the right to punch them in the face. It is really bad that it ended badly, but I would say it was self defense if that is how it happened.

In the USA even white people are innocent till proven guilty. Maybe the US Citizens should Sue Mexico.

On the other hand you could say the US Citizens baited the foreigner in and then they ganged up on him and killed him in the fight. Even if this was 2 white guys, you might still only expect to get a charge of Manslaughter or an accidental death. Youths get into fights all the time.