No hot water until... until...until.... NOW!

[Muse]

Please see pix below.

So, I took a break from a project yesterday and decided to do a bit of maintenance. Figured it was pretty trivial, because I've done stuff like this many times... minor plumbing. My kitchen has a wall mount faucet with a pivoting 10" spigot and H & C handles. I installed that not too long after I bought the house in 2000. It replaced a similar unit with 8" offset of the H & C stub-out pipes. The new one had longer spout.

So, the last month or so there was a very slow leak coming from the cold side, it would drip down. I mean very slow, but I put a pan there sometimes and don't water dripping on it, won't explain that.

So, I decide early yesterday afternoon to take tools to the cold water valve, take it apart, put it back together... tighter. I figured maybe the O ring should be replaced, maybe the rubber washer, dunno. Anyway turns out the threads on the conical nut on top of the cold water valve were stripped to the point where it wouldn't grab decently. I struggled with it some, decided to put teflon tape on the affair, figured it would tighten up OK then. I did this, turned the water back on (front of house, there's no cut off at the sink), decided to do my dishes. I'm 1/2 way through that and my jury rigged valve cover blew off!!! Water pressure here is pretty high (~90lb), I clamp my hand over the gushing water, which has already sprayed the area and try to think what to do. The water shut off is in front. If I ran out there, it would be 30 seconds or so of water gushing. I grab some big sponges next to the sink and use them instead of my hand, which is hurting. I get the idea to call my neighbor and ask her to run over here and shut off the water. She answers but says she's 10 minutes from home. I wait around 10-12 minutes and get another idea -- tie the sponges over the gusher hole with something. I have no cord, rope, etc. Dismiss electrical tape (that would have worked, but what a mess...), then grabbed a big plastic bag from the grocery store that was at hand and tied a knot to hold down the sponges, run to the front and shut off the water main valve, just as my neighbor drove up.

Then I go to neighborhood Truevalue Hardware and buy another wall-mount faucet. This actually looks good, $65, ceramic valves (my last ones has rubber washers), adjustable mount, 7-9", and proceed to try to install it.

Now, last time I replaced the kitchen wall mount faucet I didn't replace the chromed parts that screwed onto the short steel horizontal stub-outs, reason being that I feared that in this then ~92 year old house the stub-outs couldn't take it. I managed that OK. This time I didn't see a way of installing this "Bayview" faucet (distributed by Home Depot, and evidently very like their Glacier Bay offerings) without removing the old chrome/stainless gizmos that screwed onto the stub-outs. So, I remove the left one (Hot). Sure enough, the stub-out wasn't in good shape, the end was crumbling some, there was rust. I cleaned it up and tried to install but can't get the faucet fitting to grab the stub-out threads. I used teflon tape, like the instructions say, but it was no go. I tried and tried. I figured if I grind off a bit of the stub-out I might get the fitting to grab, used my dremel to do so, but still no grab. I have a pipe end cap, that won't grab either. It did, kinda, but when I tested it with pressure, water was spurting and turned the water off again.

I then turned off the hot water at my tankless water heater, attached my old faucet to just the cold side (to the fitting I HADN'T removed from its stub-out, so I at least have cold water. Now, what I did was replace the valve cover on the cold side using a thicker application of teflon tape, hoping it won't blow again, but this time I didn't turn the water all the way on, just enough to get a gentle flow, not the full on 90 lb. pressure flow!

So, I have low pressure cold water, no hot for the time being.

Now I figure there's two possibilities:

1. Manage to get my faucet to fit on both existing stub-outs. Maybe there's some way to clean up or reshape the threads so a female part will hold, and HOLD WELL!

2. Replace the stub-outs with new piping. Thing is, looking at the hot one (I haven't seen the other yet) it appears to be cemented into the wall. I watched a video of what looks like practically the same faucet as I just bought being installed and the guy removed a ~3" stub-out that was threaded on both ends. But it doesn't look like I have that arrangement. It looks like they used concrete or similar to hold my stub-outs in place. Replacing them, it seems to me, you either have to remove a lot of tile on the inside (oh no!), or do it from the outside. Now, the outside has bricks, old fashioned red bricks, but at that particular place outside the kitchen the mortar is practically gone and it looks like you can practically remove the bricks with your bare hands, so that might not be too hard. They'd have to be replaced. Pix:

 

[Muse]

This YT video shows a guy mounting a very similar faucet, it looks like it has the exact same offset fitting as I have, it's also Home Depot, being Glacier Bay, mine being Bayview. He removes a 3 inch pipe stub-end, but mine doesn't look to be removable, at least not just twisted out because it's apparently cemented in. I have a mind to call a plumber, which I've never done in my life! I left a message with a guy I know who I think is a professional plumber. I started looking up recommendations for plumbers locally, found 3 online. I figure this might be more than a plumber's prepared to do what with the brick on the outside and the bad stub out being apparently cemented in. I figure the other stub-out should also be replaced at the same time. All this unless there's a way to get my new faucet to actually grab on those stub-outs. I suppose plumbers have their "tricks." This guy put in essentially the same faucet as I just bought, but the stub-outs were removable:

 

[Muse]

In the pictures you can see where the thread at the end of the stub-out is bent, twisted, don't know how that happened but figure that might be what's keeping my new fitting from grabbing. I tried working on it with a rotary tool but I don't think it did much. Obviously the pipe isn't in good shape but figure if I can get the fitting to screw onto it, get back on it 1/4 inch or more it might hold. But I can't get it started now. Haven't been trying with teflon tape now. Figure if I can't get it on without tape it wouldn't grab with tape. What's left of that stub-out is not exactly long, that pipe end has deteriorated from what it once was. I did work on it with rotary tool and grinding attachment, taking off what seemed like would interfere with a fit.

 

[Greenman]

The mortar you're seeing is the backing for the tile. The two nipples pass through that and are screwed into fittings in the wall. It's likely that when you try to remove those nipples they'll break off at the fitting. It's a crap shoot at this point. You need a plumber, if you can find one that will touch the job.

The unfortunate problem is that your plumbing appears to be at the end of it's service life. That old steel piping reaches a point where it's unrepairable.

 

[Muse]

Yeah, thanks. I just had an hour+ conversation with a friend,a now-retired plumber. Sent him the link to this thread, but he couldn't see the pix without registering, so I sent them to him directly. Yeah, he too said he thinks the stub outs are 3" and screwed into fittings inside the wall. He said he'd strongly consider heating the interior of those stub outs with a propane torch in order to loosen them before turning them. He says they have a special tool that fits inside, has a cam (which you lubricate) and you then turn the fitting, which turns the stub-out. It's fraught with danger of the pipe simply breaking and then you have no alternative other than to open the wall... from in front or behind. If removing the tile (angle grinder and 4" diamond disk), there's an enormous dust problem.

He thinks I could probably use the stub outs I have and clean up the threads, maybe grind back the escutcheons to give more thread to grab onto. The threads need dressing so I can get the females to grab. He said use a fine hacksaw blade, a file. A danger is a leak that's undetectable, i.e. doesn't present where you can see it but is inside, under the tile and the escutcheons covering the holes.

He does think that having a good experienced pro do the job makes a lot of sense. Myself, I'm afraid of screwing it up if I continue trying to DIY it. I have 2-3 names/numbers. Meantime I have low pressure cold water. TBH the only thing I will really miss is taking a hot shower here until this is fixed.

 

[Greenman]

Yeah, thanks. I just had an hour+ conversation with a friend,a now-retired plumber. Sent him the link to this thread, but he couldn't see the pix without registering, so I sent them to him directly. Yeah, he too said he thinks the stub outs are 3" and screwed into fittings inside the wall. He said he'd strongly consider heating the interior of those stub outs with a propane torch in order to loosen them before turning them. He says they have a special tool that fits inside, has a cam (which you lubricate) and you then turn the fitting, which turns the stub-out. It's fraught with danger of the pipe simply breaking and then you have no alternative other than to open the wall... from in front or behind. If removing the tile (angle grinder and 4" diamond disk), there's an enormous dust problem.

He thinks I could probably use the stub outs I have and clean up the threads, maybe grind back the escutcheons to give more thread to grab onto. The threads need dressing so I can get the females to grab. He said use a fine hacksaw blade, a file. A danger is a leak that's undetectable, i.e. doesn't present where you can see it but is inside, under the tile and the escutcheons covering the holes.

He does think that having a good experienced pro do the job makes a lot of sense. Myself, I'm afraid of screwing it up if I continue trying to DIY it. I have 2-3 names/numbers. Meantime I have low pressure cold water. TBH the only thing I will really miss is taking a hot shower here until this is fixed.

I'd be surprised if you can find a plumber that will touch it. The job is thousands of dollars worth of liability for a couple hundred dollars worth of revenue. The plumbers I know would refuse to lay a hand on it.

Keeping the main valve volume low isn't really doing anything for you. The pressure is still going to be 90psi unless you leave the water running all the time. The other thing to think about is that the rest of the system is most likely in the same condition as the kitchen faucet plumbing. It's probably time to think about complete replacement.

Edit: Looking at the counter and tile work, that's all original stuff. Maybe it's time to consider a new kitchen as well. Money is really cheap to borrow right now, might be worth while.

 

[pcgeek11]

I too began to have issues with my copper pipes back in the late 1990's (pinhole leaks). I had the entire house piping replaced with CPVC. Ripped out all the copper and replaced with CPVC. Total cost at the time was 2,400 US dollars with a lifetime guarantee. It only took two days and only minimal holes in the drywall which they patched, but did not paint.

Best investment I ever made to my house.

 

[Greenman]

I too began to have issues with my copper pipes back in the late 1990's (pinhole leaks). I had the entire house piping replaced with CPVC. Ripped out all the copper and replaced with CPVC. Total cost at the time was 2,400 US dollars with a lifetime guarantee. It only took two days and only minimal holes in the drywall which they patched, but did not paint.

Best investment I ever made to my house.

Around here copper is king. I've pulled out 50 year old copper pipe that was in near perfect condition. Muse will end up with copper or pex, as those are pretty much the only two used around here, assuming he does the job.
I know his house has more than a few problems based on what he's posted here. At some point he's going to have to spend some serious money on it, or just sell it as is.

 

[Steltek]

Out of curiosity @Greenman , do you see any asbestos issues (like in old plasterboard or in pipe insulation) out there in those old houses like @Muse has?

 

[Greenman]

Out of curiosity @Greenman , do you see any asbestos issues (like in old plasterboard or in pipe insulation) out there in those old houses like @Muse has?

I have found it a time or two. Generally it's in the adhesive used under old flooring, and once in the plaster. Lead paint is much more common, though that's almost always confined to trim.

Old heat ducts are almost always wrapped in asbestos. That's an easy mitigation.

 

[pcgeek11]

Around here copper is king. I've pulled out 50 year old copper pipe that was in near perfect condition. Muse will end up with copper or pex, as those are pretty much the only two used around here, assuming he does the job.
I know his house has more than a few problems based on what he's posted here. At some point he's going to have to spend some serious money on it, or just sell it as is.

That is something I never understood why copper has issues in some areas and not others. When I bought I saw the copper pipe and thought that was great. It was, until the pinholes started showing up. After I sweated the 5th new pipe in I started researching and found it is not uncommon at all in certain areas. On my 6th leak I threw in the towel and decided to repipe.

The point of my post to Muse was sooner or later he will have to bite the bullet and get it repaired correctly or move. I've gotten the impression from his posts that his house is like an old ragged patchwork quilt.

 

[Steltek]

That is something I never understood why copper has issues in some areas and not others. When I bought I saw the copper pipe and thought that was great. It was, until the pinholes started showing up. After I sweated the 5th new pipe in I started researching and found it is not uncommon at all in certain areas. On my 6th leak I threw in the towel and decided to repipe.

Pinholes can result from water that is too acidic being transported through copper piping, from failure to properly clean excess flux from sweated copper connections, or from galvanic corrosion resulting from connecting even one single non-copper fitting (like a galvanized or steel nipple at your water heater, for instance) to copper piping. Improper electrical grounding/bonding of your home electrical system to existing copper pipe in your home can also cause pinholes through electrolysis. And, if your water is energized even slightly and the water contains dissolved iron or other metals (as most water does), once the anode rod in your water heater is used up the copper piping essentially becomes like a battery and begins to be consumed. In situations conducive to producing pitting in copper pipes, pinhole formation can be accelerated if you have high water pressure in your pipes.

Another factor is the type of pipe used. There are two grades of copper pipe - Type L and Type M. Type L is a far thicker and beefier (and far more expensive) copper pipe than is type M. Most people will go with Type M on a basis of cost - it is perfectly valid to do so as both are approved, but Type M will develop pinholes far faster than will Type L in a situation conducive for it.



I remember when my brother and I piped my current house and I elected to use type L. It cost 2-1/2 times as much as using type M would have (and this was 20 years ago right at the end of a copper glut). But, after 20 years, most of the pipe still looks absolutely brand new and I have no doubt it will outlast me by a wide margin.

 

[pcgeek11]

Nevermind...

 

[jmagg]

Seems like you should be able to cut the pipe at the tee that supplies the kitchen sink in the basement or crawl space, and terminate with a new nipple and a cap. At least youll have hot water to the rest of the house until you get a plan. A new supply through the floor into a new sink base, sink and sink mounted faucet, and abandon the in wall steel pipe.

 

[Greenman]

To install that new base cabinet and sink will require cutting the tile and then coming up with some kind of new top for the sink base. The new cabinet is also going to be deeper than the old one. Chances are also pretty good that the old cabinet was built in place. His only real hope is to get a new faucet screwed on to the old pipe, and hope it holds for a few years.
He has a hundred year old house and the mechanical systems are at the end of their service life. The kitchen counters are clearly in need of replacing, and the cabinets aren't standard size. He might get a few more years with some bandaids, but the problems are going to have to be addressed at some point in the not to distant future.

 

[jmagg]

To install that new base cabinet and sink will require cutting the tile and then coming up with some kind of new top for the sink base. The new cabinet is also going to be deeper than the old one. Chances are also pretty good that the old cabinet was built in place. His only real hope is to get a new faucet screwed on to the old pipe, and hope it holds for a few years.
He has a hundred year old house and the mechanical systems are at the end of their service life. The kitchen counters are clearly in need of replacing, and the cabinets aren't standard size. He might get a few more years with some bandaids, but the problems are going to have to be addressed at some point in the not to distant future.

Yea, theres really not enough info to help very much, since the supply to the kitchen sink may also supply an upstairs bath. My line of thought, is that if those supplies stop at the kitchen sink, he may as well go from steel to copper at the tees below, for both cold and hot and come up through through the floor. I assume* that his existing sink base stands alone. If thats the case, it wouldnt take much to remove the old sink and base and install new with a simple tile countertop. It may or may not meet the old tile, but thats a an aesthetic problem. Shouldnt be too tough beside the steel to copper union.

edit, I guess the drain could be a royal pia also.

 

[echo4747]

I would think you could use an internal pipe wrench to remove the nipple the the damaged thread. It would be nice if you could apply heat to the fitting you need to remove it from . Then just buy the appropriate sized nipple to replace it with. A replacement brass pipe nipple would be better than galvanized .

Husky Internal Pipe Wrench Set 16PL0140 - The Home Depot

This Internal Pipe Wrench Set features expandable knurled cams that provide an easy, internal grip on pipe nipples without marring, scratching or denting the pipe surface. The set includes 3/8 in., 1/2

www.homedepot.com

 

[Muse]

I would think you could use an internal pipe wrench to remove the nipple the the damaged thread. It would be nice if you could apply heat to the fitting you need to remove it from . Then just buy the appropriate sized nipple to replace it with. A replacement brass pipe nipple would be better than galvanized .

Husky Internal Pipe Wrench Set 16PL0140 - The Home Depot

This Internal Pipe Wrench Set features expandable knurled cams that provide an easy, internal grip on pipe nipples without marring, scratching or denting the pipe surface. The set includes 3/8 in., 1/2

www.homedepot.com

That's exactly what my friend, now retired plumber told me the other day on the phone in a long conversation. He recommended me a plumber who's really experienced and I figure to call him today.

Question: I have never hired a contractor personally. Yup, I've done a ton of stuff myself, but I don't want to deal with this. Want to hire an experienced pro. So, how do I arrange this? I have another friend I talked to. They seem to figure I have to pay just to get a guy in the door. I'm OK with that, but how does this work? Do I want a contract? Do I pay 1/2 up front the rest on completion? I have a water pressure regulator I intended to install, but figure to let the pro do that too (the pressure's around 90psi here), figure to ratchet that down to maybe 75. Plastic or checks?

 

[Muse]

My other friend (a painter and general handyman for hire who's owned two houses and done major renovations on both) tells me that a plumber's going to install shut offs under the sink, cut off the pipes and use compression fittings.

 

[Greenman]

I would think you could use an internal pipe wrench to remove the nipple the the damaged thread. It would be nice if you could apply heat to the fitting you need to remove it from . Then just buy the appropriate sized nipple to replace it with. A replacement brass pipe nipple would be better than galvanized .

Husky Internal Pipe Wrench Set 16PL0140 - The Home Depot

This Internal Pipe Wrench Set features expandable knurled cams that provide an easy, internal grip on pipe nipples without marring, scratching or denting the pipe surface. The set includes 3/8 in., 1/2

www.homedepot.com

The issue is it's a one shot deal. If the old pipe twists inside the wall he's got a whole new problem.
When working on very old corroded plumbing, you need to be able to see what's going on , you need to verify that you haven't created a leak in the wall. From a repair standpoint, this is worst case. Tile on one side and brick on the other. Both are a hundred years old. The brick seems like it would be the simpler repair, but the tar paper behind it is like ancient parchment at this point, it will crumble if it's disturbed, creating a new problem to solve.
It's a shitty deal all the way around, as what appears to be a simple repair can turn into a major project with one twist of a wrench.
His best bet is to try and find a local plumber who deals with this sort of thing all the time. That person might have a better understanding of what he can or can't do just by looking at the condition of the pipe poking out of the wall.

 

[Greenman]

That's exactly what my friend, now retired plumber told me the other day on the phone in a long conversation. He recommended me a plumber who's really experienced and I figure to call him today.

Question: I have never hired a contractor personally. Yup, I've done a ton of stuff myself, but I don't want to deal with this. Want to hire an experienced pro. So, how do I arrange this? I have another friend I talked to. They seem to figure I have to pay just to get a guy in the door. I'm OK with that, but how does this work? Do I want a contract? Do I pay 1/2 up front the rest on completion? I have a water pressure regulator I intended to install, but figure to let the pro do that too (the pressure's around 90psi here), figure to ratchet that down to maybe 75. Plastic or checks?

On a repair job it will most likely be paid on completion. Get the guy's license number, go to the CSLB and check for complaints.
https://www.cslb.ca.gov/onlineservices/checklicenseII/checklicense.aspx

 

[NutBucket]

I am glad my dad bit the bullet and re-piped about 20 years ago. At least the plumbing will outlive my parents!

 

[Muse]

I am glad my dad bit the bullet and re-piped about 20 years ago. At least the plumbing will outlive my parents!

Maybe I should do that. I've lived here since 1983 and this is the only serious plumbing problem I've had unless you include the trenchless sewer job, but that was a breeze because the pros had it nailed. Of course in the process of doing that they broke my water main, but they said that was unavoidable because of the condition of the line. So it cost extra. Still, no biggie. This one's kind of scary. I called a plumber today, he hasn't returned my call yet. He has no clue what the problem is. My friend retired plumber says a plumber wouldn't be on the hook if there's a leak, it's my risk. I'm removing the structure I built under the sink 2-3 years ago, hopefully it will reveal the pipes inside the wall.

 

[NutBucket]

If you like DIY you could patch up the holes from a repipe job yourself. That's what we did. They'll bring in a crew and be done in one day. Pretty impressive really.

 

[Muse]

If you like DIY you could patch up the holes from a repipe job yourself. That's what we did. They'll bring in a crew and be done in one day. Pretty impressive really.

Don't understand that. You DIY it, but a crew was brought in?

Well, I have a good feeling about the plumber I called based on his Yelp reviews and the recommendation from my friend. He hasn't returned my call yet, I figure I'll either hear from him this evening (it's 7:10PM here) or tomorrow. Anyway I'm working on opening up the space beneath the sink. Wish I'd made it easier to do that.

He works with only one other person, his son. This being a tricky job I don't want a company that has 10 guys. I have a similar feeling about contractors in general. My roof was done by a company with several crews. I had to keep an eagle eye on those guys. When they were nailing down shingles I would go up on the roof in the evening after they left and inspect their work. They made several critical errors:

1. Didn't put double underlayment on a section that code required it due to insufficient slope (they denied it, but I have a degree in math, figuring out the slope is 3rd grade arithmetic). I made them tear it up and redo that portion.

2. The workers were in such a hurry to nail down shingles that many had exposed nails, a no no. I made them redo those. I had to hound them about that several times.

If I were to have my roof done now I'd pick a company with ONE crew, the owner being the crew boss.