No grounding in house - safe for electronics?

[Nvidiaguy07]

Im moving into a new house next week and there currently is no grounding. Its an older house. We should be getting it fixed (switched over and grounding installed) in the next few weeks, but should i not plug in anything until then?

I had a bad experience a LONG time ago. I had a new computer catch on fire when i was living with my grandmother when i was younger. I was told it was because there was no grounding in the room i hooked the PC up in.

Things i need to plug in are: (in order of importance)
macbook air << does it even matter for this since its not 3 prong?
router/modem
main desktop PC and monitor
360
Big screen TV.
other stuff

I was told it was ok to plug in anything until then, but i really dont know who to listen to until then. Id rather be safe than sorry, but at the very least, id like to be able to plug in my MBA, and router - since those dont have the 3rd prong anyway.

Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[Paperdoc]

It should be OK to plug things in, BUT there are a few things that could be small problems.

1. Plugging a 3-prong plug into a 2-slot outlet requires an adapter, and most of these can be plugged in both ways - "right side up" or other way. What's the "right side"? Well, that is not easy to tell, but a voltmeter can help. To start, think about a 3-prong outlet. Imagine it installed so that the round Ground hole is below the other two flat slots - that is, so the Ground is at the BOTTOM of the triangle of holes. In that orientation, the Neutral line is the slot on the LEFT, and if you look closely you'll see that it is wider than the other slot. The Hot slot is the one on the right. With a 3-prong plug, you can't get those two reversed. BUT when you insert the adapter, you could, because most adapters do NOT have their two blades of different widths, and they'll go in either way. Now, on MANY devices this would not matter, but some items depend on having the Neutral blade of their plug inserted into the Neutral slot of the outlet, etc. If you want to be sure, get a voltmeter and a long piece of wire. Attach the wire to a known Ground, like a water pipe as close to the pipe entrance point as you can. (The reason for this is to be sure you do have a Ground, and are not isolated by some intervening piece of plastic piping.) Run the other end to near the 2-slot outlet you plan to use. Now measure the AC voltage between this ground lead and each of the two slots in the outlet. One should be at 0 volts, and that is the Neutral line. The other should be at 110 volts AC, and that is the Hot line. (This all works because in North America, the common system is that the Neutral bus at the fuse panel is connected to earth Ground - it's called the Grounded Neutral system. BUT this does NOT mean that the Neutral line can be used as a Ground - it CANNOT be relied upon to be at exactly zero volts because it is carrying currents.) So now you know for sure which slot of the 2-slot outlet is Hot (hopefully on the right, but maybe not), and you can plug in your 3-prong-to-2-prong adapter correctly.

2. Even on the devices that have only 2 blades on their plugs, check whether they are the same width or different. Many newer devices have them different so that they can only plug into a 3-prong outlet properly, even though they are not using the round Ground hole connection. Some, however, do not and both blades are the same. This is important because it is VERY likely that your 2-slot outlets do NOT have one slot wider, and they will not accept a plug with one wide blade.

If you're having the whole house re-wired, that is the best solution to this situation. But temporarily things should work. Having proper Grounded 3-prong outlets is a big safety feature for people, and to some extent for electronics. But one real advantage to them is that the electronic devices actually have a connection to a true earth Ground for purposes of shielding out stray electronic noise signals. That can prevent the odd signal malfunction or slow performance of equipment.

When you or your electrician are planning the re-wiring, make sure to consider the power requirements of your computer system. I installed one completely separate circuit (15 amps, 110 VAC, 4 outlets plus using a multi-outlet Surge Protector) to my computer area so it is not "competing" with other devices for power and is all fed from a single voltage line in the breaker box.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

@Paperdoc

Thanks for the help. He actually changed all the plugs over - but just hasnt gotten around to switching over the service, and installing ground. So im not too concerned about plugging in anything the wrong way, and i dont plan on using any adapters. just a power strip into the wall, and then my computers into that.

I had a computer fry a while back, and they said it was because the socket had no grounding - could it be it wasn't caused by this? (or maybe he meant the orientation was wrong - i was like 12 when this happened)

Like i said im only gonna be a few weeks without it, and hes probably gonna come do it soon, but my main concern is doing damage to my Macbook, Desktop, XBOX, TV, Monitor, router, etc.

 

[Phynaz]

I'm assuming you are renting? Because I can't imagine how you would have been able to buy a house so far out of date on electrical code.

Have you had it evaluated by an electrician? Who is this "he", and is he qualified? Licensed? Insured?

Is he pulling permits for the work?

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I'm assuming you are renting? Because I can't imagine how you would have been able to buy a house so far out of date on electrical code.

Have you had it evaluated by an electrician? Who is this "he", and is he qualified? Licensed? Insured?

Is he pulling permits for the work?

Its my friends house that he just bought for a pretty good price. It was owned by an old lady, and the electric wasn't even close to the worst part.

Hes changing everything over and updating it, what would make you think hes not legit?

 

[DSF]

Its my friends house that he just bought for a pretty good price. It was owned by an old lady, and the electric wasn't even close to the worst part.

Hes changing everything over and updating it, what would make you think hes not legit?

I don't think anyone is questioning your friend.

Updating the electrical on an entire house is a huge project, and one that should be done by a qualified, insured professional.

My wife and I just recently bought a house that was built in 1925 and we had to have a few outlets grounded. We were fortunate that a ground wire was already run up the wall for the adjoining room, so it wasn't a big issue for the electrician to ground those outlets.

Running ground into a house and getting it to every room? That's a much bigger ordeal.

 

[Gibson486]

I'm assuming you are renting? Because I can't imagine how you would have been able to buy a house so far out of date on electrical code.

Have you had it evaluated by an electrician? Who is this "he", and is he qualified? Licensed? Insured?

Is he pulling permits for the work?

You can sell places that do not meet the most up to date electrical code standards (at least in MA you can). The issue that occurs is if you want to do upgrades to them. If you touch one thing, the whole thing has to be updated. That is why most sellers will not even bother...because it opens up a whole can of worms just by doing a simple electrical upgrade. If they do bother, then they will not pull a permit.

But yeah....my whole apt is ungrounded and lived in another one for years also. I have never had an issue. Ground is not this thing that is there to save electronics. It's there as a safety precaution for people, not devices.

 

[Jman13]

I'm assuming you mean there is no ground at the outlets, and no ground conductor in the circuits or grounding the boxes, right? The service entrance has to have something connected to ground for the neutral to sit at 0 volts and provide the 120V difference in the two wire circuit (unless it's providing two 60V opposite each other, which I've never seen).

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

Sorry for being so clueless about all of this. So to restate my story for clarity:

-My friend bought a house that was owned by an old lady - which needed a TON of work. - ill be moving in with him in a week or so
-We did all the other work - sheetrock - ripped up carpet and sub-floor, got hardwood refinished, molding, etc.
-His dad is an electrician, he is doing all electrical work on the house, and is doing it gradually.
-All the sockets in the house were 2 prong, he has changed MOST of them over to 3 prong.
---------
now this is where im not totally sure about
---------
-he said he has to change the "service" over? (from ~60? to 120? or 240? - like i said im not totally sure)
-He needs to put copper wire into the ground for grounding (the house doesn't have grounding?)
-i had a computer fry a long time ago - and i was told it was because there was no grounding in the room it was plugged in. (i dont think there was a 3 to 2 prong adapter - and i think there was 3 prongs - just didnt have ground)

Because of that experience im scared to plug anything in. I havent had a chance to really ask him about it, but im guessing its fine until then?

Is it possible my computer fried for some other reason when i was 12?

 

[Rvenger]

Since there is no ground installed and assuming the wiring has correct polarity. Just make sure you unplug everything after use imo. Make sure you are not full of static electricity while plugging things in as well.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

Since there is no ground installed and assuming the wiring has correct polarity. Just make sure you unplug everything after use imo. Make sure you are not full of static electricity while plugging things in as well.

What about a PC plugged in to a power strip? Would it be safe to use for 3- hours straight? Should i always unplug that afterwards? Same with 360.

 

[bononos]

......
But yeah....my whole apt is ungrounded and lived in another one for years also. I have never had an issue. Ground is not this thing that is there to save electronics. It's there as a safety precaution for people, not devices.

Can you explain further why grounding is unnecessary for the proper functioning and safety of electronic equipment incl computers? It pretty much common sense and something that built in to every technical note and requirement doc that I've seen for computer installation at work that I take it for granted.

 

[TidusZ]

I am not an electrician, but the electricity in my crawlspace is ungrounded and when you plug things into it it sparks a lot. My friend and I decided to lan in there a long time ago and we both got the sparks when plugging our computers in, his computer's power supply died, mind didnt. It was pretty obvious that it was the ungrounded power that killed his power supply. I ended up getting a plug that had a ground on it and that seemed to fix it but the damage was done.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

I am not an electrician, but the electricity in my crawlspace is ungrounded and when you plug things into it it sparks a lot. My friend and I decided to lan in there a long time ago and we both got the sparks when plugging our computers in, his computer's power supply died, mind didnt. It was pretty obvious that it was the ungrounded power that killed his power supply. I ended up getting a plug that had a ground on it and that seemed to fix it but the damage was done.

exactly! this is why im scared to plug anything in, because i dont want to ruin any of my electronics. I would be using a pretty good surge protector with my stuff - would this make any difference?

And when someone adds grounding to their house, do they typically do the whole house? Or should i talk to him, and tell him which room i specifically need it in.

If something happened to me like what happened in your story, i would be paranoid that even if something didnt fully short-out, that maybe it just damaged it a little, and it would never be the same.

 

[vailr]

---------
now this is where im not totally sure about
---------
-he said he has to change the "service" over? (from ~60? to 120? or 240? - like i said im not totally sure)
-He needs to put copper wire into the ground for grounding (the house doesn't have grounding?)

"change the 'service' over" probably means: taking out an old fuse box and replacing with a modern breaker box. Which would also require the power company disconnecting service in order for the swap-out to safely be done. The incoming power (in N. America) is normally 2 line 240 volt 60 Hz. with center neutral; each half is 120 volts for regular outlets, and 240 volt circuits available for electric range and clothes dryer. May find standard outlets with as low as 108 volts in some locations.

 

[Jman13]

There has to be SOMETHING grounded in the house or your 120V circuits wouldn't work well...there has to be a ground at the service entrance to have your neutral conductor be at 0 volts and create the 120V difference between conductors to run anything in your house. This may only be at the utility transformer, but something in the house has a connection to ground. Frankly, I wouldn't use much of anything until the system is brought up to code. If your main fuse box/breaker box is not grounded outside of the neutral bus bar going back to the transformer, it's really not the safest thing in the world and I wouldn't really risk your system.

When he's talking about changing the service he's talking about replacing your service entrance equipment. Right now, it might be rated for 60A, and he'd likely bring that up to 100A, possibly 225A depending on the size of your house. It's just the new main breaker box with larger bus bars and a larger main breaker that can handle more power. (though this being that old, you might not even have a main breaker or main fuse right now.) This will require disconnection from the utility to de-energize the service side of your equipment (you can pull the main fuse or pull the main breaker, but that only deadens the load side of the service - all your circuits, while the service side from the utility is still hot). He'll also drive ground rods to have a dedicated system ground, which will be used to ground the enclosure for your breaker box, as well as all the outlet boxes and any devices that require dedicated ground....then, of course he'll have fun running the extra ground conductor for all your circuits.

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

"change the 'service' over" probably means: taking out an old fuse box and replacing with a modern breaker box. Which would also require the power company disconnecting service in order for the swap-out to safely be done.

maybe thats why hes waited to do this - which would make sense. He changed everything else in the house (sockets, fans, etc) but hasnt done that yet.

There has to be SOMETHING grounded in the house or none of your electricity would work...there has to be a ground at the service entrance to have your neutral conductor be at 0 volts and actually create the 120V difference between conductors to run anything in your house. This does not, of course mean that any of your outlets or such are grounded, as from your description, I am sure they are not.

So should i specifically ask him to put ground in my room and the living room? Do i need to? Or is this just done automatically - because he put new sockets in?

Im leaning towards it would be a good idea to ask him if he can put ground in those places. Would he know why im asking? Or that modern electronics NEED ground?

 

[Rvenger]

maybe thats why hes waited to do this - which would make sense. He changed everything else in the house (sockets, fans, etc) but hasnt done that yet.



So should i specifically ask him to put ground in my room and the living room? Do i need to? Or is this just done automatically - because he put new sockets in?

Im leaning towards it would be a good idea to ask him if he can put ground in those places. Would he know why im asking? Or that modern electronics NEED ground?

Make a temporary outlet ground by taking a copper wire and run it from the plug source to a copper water pipe. Your fuse box won't be grounded but the outlet itself will be. Most building codes require a double ground these days.

 

[Jman13]

maybe thats why hes waited to do this - which would make sense. He changed everything else in the house (sockets, fans, etc) but hasnt done that yet.



So should i specifically ask him to put ground in my room and the living room? Do i need to? Or is this just done automatically - because he put new sockets in?

Im leaning towards it would be a good idea to ask him if he can put ground in those places. Would he know why im asking? Or that modern electronics NEED ground?

If he's bringing the system up to code, he'll run a dedicated ground conductor to the new plugs. If he is installing three prong outlets, he'll be running those conductors anyway. Those will connect to the grounding busbar in your new service entrance breaker box, which will then go outside to ground rods, or connect to something in the house that's grounded already (if you have metal plumbing that goes directly into the ground he can connect to that, for instance).

 

[Nvidiaguy07]

If he's bringing the system up to code, he'll run a dedicated ground conductor to the new plugs. If he is installing three prong outlets, he'll be running those conductors anyway. Those will connect to the grounding busbar in your new service entrance breaker box, which will then go outside to ground rods, or connect to something in the house that's grounded already (if you have metal plumbing that goes directly into the ground he can connect to that, for instance).

If the plugs are in, and the only thing left is the actual service itself - could it be that they have ground right now? Im going to ask him anyway, i just hate to be a pain in the ass.

 

[vailr]

If the plugs are in, and the only thing left is the actual service itself - could it be that they have ground right now?

If the old outlets have metal enclosures connected with shielded metal conduit, then the metal conduit would normally be adequate for providing a dedicated ground wire.

 

[Jman13]

I doubt they are connected to ground if you don't have your service entrance equipment grounded, but he may have already run the wires...did he do extra wiring yet? If he did, he probably put the wires in, but they likely aren't connected to ground yet. If he didn't, then he'll need to run the ground conductors before those outlets will make any difference.

 

[Jman13]

If the old outlets have metal enclosures connected with shielded metal conduit, then the metal conduit would normally be adequate for providing a dedicated ground wire.

Not if the conduits aren't grounded...which if there's no grounding on the service entrance, is unlikely.

 

[birthdaymonkey]

I've been living in an apartment for 1.5 years with no grounded outlets. Running several computers and and many electronic devices without issue--except for one time i was vacuuming and touched the vacuum to a computer chassis and it shut off.

I'm not wild about this situation, but the landlord has basically said he's not willing to invest in rewiring the building. Fortunately, we're planning to move soon...and finding a place with modern wiring is definitely a priority.

I think you'll be fine for a couple weeks.

 

[piasabird]

If you have a room near a bathroom you may be able to ground an outlet to a metal pipe. This may not work on some houses if all the supply pipes have been replaced with the plastic type pipes. If the house is above ground you can use a grounding stake. You just put the stake in the ground under the house. It is a little easier than getting a new power panel box and rewiring the whole house. Radio shack use to sell those grounding rods. I would think a lowes or home depot may also sell them.

I think you have to take the outlet apart and replace it with a grounding outlet and connect the ground to that plug and route to the grounding rod or grounding pipe clamp for the ground, with heavy gauge copper wire.