I think the point is Honda and Toyota are on the right track to creating hybrids that in the very near future WILL be cost-beneficial. Right now it's probably true you're paying a premium for something that may not be a good long-term investment.
Nissan will likely always be a step behind Honda and Toyota in the hybrid market.
Nissan will likely always be a step behind Honda and Toyota in the hybrid market.
Heh heh...ok, this is taking the discussion in a weird direction but that supercharger will add closer to 60 hp...not 15
And if you're driving a Hybrid like you'd drive a supercharged car, good luck getting 37 mpg
Depends on how much you drive. You have to remember the US Market has some of the lowest prices on gas in the world. Look at some of the countries in the world and you'll start to realize that at ~$5.00 a gallon, a hybrid starts to make a lot of sense.
Hybrid cars are overrated.
Regular civic: 31 / 38
Hybrid Civic: 48/47
You get a 24-54% in fuel economy, which is good, but it comes at an additional cost of $6640. The price of the car goes up by 50%. The base price of the car increases by more than the fuel economy does.
Assuming even city mileage numbers, and 12,000 miles a year, at $2.00/gallon you save $275/year by driving the Hybrid version. At that rate, it'll take you about 25 years to make up for the increased purchase price of the car. Since the car wont last that long, it doesn't make economic sense to buy the hybrid version.
Does it make environmental sense to buy the hybrid? Even the standard civic has an ultra-low emmisions engine, and I can't find anywhere that says the Hybrid actually runs any cleaner than the standard version, plus you have those extra batteries to deal with. It very well be a toss-up in terms of pollution.
What about reducing dependence on oil?If we have 50 or 100 years of oil left, then switching everyone to cars stretches that to 75 or 150 years. That's really NOT that big of a difference. We're going to have to come up with some other non-fossil fuel solution either way, and we can do it in 50 years just as easily as 75. The hybrid really doesn't help all that much there, either.
Regular civic: 31 / 38
Hybrid Civic: 48/47
You get a 24-54% in fuel economy, which is good, but it comes at an additional cost of $6640. The price of the car goes up by 50%. The base price of the car increases by more than the fuel economy does.
Assuming even city mileage numbers, and 12,000 miles a year, at $2.00/gallon you save $275/year by driving the Hybrid version. At that rate, it'll take you about 25 years to make up for the increased purchase price of the car. Since the car wont last that long, it doesn't make economic sense to buy the hybrid version.
Does it make environmental sense to buy the hybrid? Even the standard civic has an ultra-low emmisions engine, and I can't find anywhere that says the Hybrid actually runs any cleaner than the standard version, plus you have those extra batteries to deal with. It very well be a toss-up in terms of pollution.
What about reducing dependence on oil?If we have 50 or 100 years of oil left, then switching everyone to cars stretches that to 75 or 150 years. That's really NOT that big of a difference. We're going to have to come up with some other non-fossil fuel solution either way, and we can do it in 50 years just as easily as 75. The hybrid really doesn't help all that much there, either.
Heh, they were test driving some secret new Nissan sedan up here a couple of weeks ago and hit a moose with it.
That may be the current situation on hybrid's, but the point is the technology is progressing rapidly. With new developments on more efficient electric motors and implementation we'll start to see the hyrbids making more sense soon. While i do agree with you that at a $6,640 premium for the Civic hybrid doesn't make sense immediately, it's also helping companies push forward with R&D. If consumers had 0 interest in hybrid's ATM the market would halt. Technological progression takes time, and it will all make sense in the end.
fred
You gotta start somewhere and if you clicked my link, 108 mpg for that hybrid :|
3X as much as a Civic
Toyota is just isn't interested in diesel, they have said so.
The point isn't what it costs its to use less. I just switched out all the incandescent bulbs in my house last week to flourescents where typically I'd use 220 watts at night to light the main area I now use 50 or 1/4
If NA would get behind a real alternative program costs would go down meaning less need for gas generated power and so on and so on and so on.
You gotta start somewhere and if you clicked my link, 108 mpg for that hybrid :|
3X as much as a Civic
Toyota is just isn't interested in diesel, they have said so.
The point isn't what it costs its to use less. I just switched out all the incandescent bulbs in my house last week to flourescents where typically I'd use 220 watts at night to light the main area I now use 50 or 1/4
If NA would get behind a real alternative program costs would go down meaning less need for gas generated power and so on and so on and so on.
It depends how long the car runs.
Hybrids may make more sense in big, work trucks where drivers don't care about handling...
Let's go with GM's 11% increase in MPG, the $3000 premium to purchase, and 12,000 annual miles of driving.
With 50/50 highway/city driving, you'd get 19 mpg w/the gas engine and just over 21 with the hybrid, so you'd be pumping 62 less gallons per year.
So if you own the car for 1 year, gas would have to priced at $48.38 for the hybrid to make sense.
2 years - $24.19
3 years - $16.13
4 years - $12.10
5 years - $9.68
6 years - $8.06
7 years - $6.91
8 years - $6.05
9 years - $5.38
10 years - $4.84
The follow-up question you're probably wondering about is how long you'd have to keep the car to recoup the $3000. Using today's gas prices of about $1.80, you're looking at 27 years
Never mind that those are the published numbers only...
According to Consumer Reports (via wired.com), in real world driving, "the Civic Hybrid averaged 26 mpg in the city, while the Toyota Prius averaged 35 mpg, much less than their respective EPA estimates of 47 and 60 mpg"
For those of you keeping track, 26 mpg is less than the published numbers for the gas only Civic (32/38) :Q
yep, the other problem is infrastructure. There's a cool article on it in last month's Popular Science
No one buys hybrids for economic reasons, I don't know why that discussion keeps coming up...it's a question of where your money goes, to the oil companies, or to alternative energy research.
As for environmental sense, that's a good point on the batteries, but better mileage = fewer emissions when we're talking same-generation engines. So the hybrid DOES run cleaner than the gas-only.
Something that is interesting, is that even with his comments, I have friends working at several fuel cell companies that have rather large contracts with Nissan.
So, evidently, he says one thing but the company is really doing something else.
So, evidently, he says one thing but the company is really doing something else.
Carlos Ghosn is the automotive equivalent of Jesus H. Christ.
To take a near bankrupt manufacturer and turn it into a powerhouse with skyrocketing sales in such a short time, is no less impressive than walking on water, IMO.
But anyways, Carlos proves once again why he is eating the competition's lunch. Let the sheeple build their hybrids.
It's hard sometimes to stand up to conventional wisdom and believe in your own reasoning.
The logic is very simple. Hybrids are economically viable when the battery, hybrid system and additional maintainance cost is lower than saved fuel cost over life of the vehicle. But let's say everyone adapts the hybrid system. That will increase demand and thus prices on batteries and hybrid components, and reduce demand and thus prices for gasoline, which will in turn make hybrids less economically attractive. Now why should Ghosn invest his company's money in this technology? If hybrids are a hit, he'll have to pay money to Toyota anyways even Nissan develops its own system, just to get around the patents. If hybids bomb, he will be sitting pretty having invested the R&D money in something more profitable. It seems like a no brainer to me.
If you were buying an Altima, let's say you see a base model, and you have a choice of spending 3K on adding sunroof, leather, and navigation, or on a hybrid system. I would bet most people would pick the luxury goodies.
To take a near bankrupt manufacturer and turn it into a powerhouse with skyrocketing sales in such a short time, is no less impressive than walking on water, IMO.
But anyways, Carlos proves once again why he is eating the competition's lunch. Let the sheeple build their hybrids.
It's hard sometimes to stand up to conventional wisdom and believe in your own reasoning.
The logic is very simple. Hybrids are economically viable when the battery, hybrid system and additional maintainance cost is lower than saved fuel cost over life of the vehicle. But let's say everyone adapts the hybrid system. That will increase demand and thus prices on batteries and hybrid components, and reduce demand and thus prices for gasoline, which will in turn make hybrids less economically attractive. Now why should Ghosn invest his company's money in this technology? If hybrids are a hit, he'll have to pay money to Toyota anyways even Nissan develops its own system, just to get around the patents. If hybids bomb, he will be sitting pretty having invested the R&D money in something more profitable. It seems like a no brainer to me.
If you were buying an Altima, let's say you see a base model, and you have a choice of spending 3K on adding sunroof, leather, and navigation, or on a hybrid system. I would bet most people would pick the luxury goodies.
I think some people are also forgetting this may pay off in the long run for Toyota and Honda as a form of marketing. There was an article posted here a few months ago that had one of the higher ups at GM saying that they missed the bandwagon. He said Toyota/Honda were somewhat treating it as a form of marketing and if GM had looked at it that way, the hundreds of millions would've definitely been worth it to establish them as a 'green' brand to consumers. Anyone know where that article is? Can't remember what site had it.
Yup, this year, it is $2000 so for most people, you'll cut under $600 off the taxes you have to pay. Starting next year, the deduction becomes just $500 and in 2007, the deduction disappears altogether.
Originally posted by: SuperTool
Carlos Ghosn is the automotive equivalent of Jesus H. Christ.
To take a near bankrupt manufacturer and turn it into a powerhouse with skyrocketing sales in such a short time, is no less impressive than walking on water, IMO.
But anyways, Carlos proves once again why he is eating the competition's lunch. Let the sheeple build their hybrids.
It's hard sometimes to stand up to conventional wisdom and believe in your own reasoning.
The logic is very simple. Hybrids are economically viable when the battery, hybrid system and additional maintainance cost is lower than saved fuel cost over life of the vehicle. But let's say everyone adapts the hybrid system. That will increase demand and thus prices on batteries and hybrid components, and reduce demand and thus prices for gasoline, which will in turn make hybrids less economically attractive. Now why should Ghosn invest his company's money in this technology? If hybrids are a hit, he'll have to pay money to Toyota anyways even Nissan develops its own system, just to get around the patents. If hybids bomb, he will be sitting pretty having invested the R&D money in something more profitable. It seems like a no brainer to me.
If you were buying an Altima, let's say you see a base model, and you have a choice of spending 3K on adding sunroof, leather, and navigation, or on a hybrid system. I would bet most people would pick the luxury goodies.
:thumbsup: AMEN
Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
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- 56
Heh, no one's ,mentioned folks like me that keep their cars forever & would have to replace the hybrid's batteries eventually for thousands of $... or factored that into operating costs.
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