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NHTSA to require backup cameras on all vehicles

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SparkyJJO

Lifer
May 16, 2002
13,357
7
81
I have a very close friend who lost his only child. He would do ANYTHING to get him back... :'(

I understand that. But, everyone in the world buying backup cameras won't change what happened. And I can guarantee you someone is still going to be an idiot and run over a kid in reverse despite the camera.

low tires have ~3x the accident rate of properly inflated tires. in addition to sucking down extra gas for no reason.

Just take the few seconds it requires to check the tire pressure every so often. I'm not against TPMS systems, in general, as yeah they are useful, but like the backup camera making it mandatory is stupid.

I am 90% sure that the first vehicle I get that has TPMS will simply get the light yanked from the dash when something in the system dies :p
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
TPMS is there because too many drivers do not know how or how often to check tire pressure. It is a good thing to have, but the sensor battery dies in about 5 years or so and you may need a special tool to reset the sensor if it fails or if you want to change the inflation pressure for what is considered a normal tire (people who drive sports cars for example, would increase tire pressure a little)
 

cbrsurfr

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2000
1,686
1
81
NHTSA estimates that 58 to 69 lives will be saved each year (not including injuries prevented) once the entire on-road vehicle fleet has rear-view systems, which it believes will be by about 2054.

Am I the only one that actually read this? The 58-69 lives saved per year won't happen until 2054 once all of the old cars are no longer on the road... So that means the math is even uglier until then. 100 million per life or worse in the first years?
 

eng2d2

Golden Member
Nov 7, 2013
1,007
38
91
These are idiots lights and warning system that is not needed. Most Oil gauges and temp gauges are idiot lights too. By the time the light comes on its too late. Race car drivers use mechanical gauges all the time and those are real time. My tire blew out on the freeway and I pulled over because I felt it. Tpms did not warn me at all. Should I keep driving?
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
These are idiots lights and warning system that is not needed. Most Oil gauges and temp gauges are idiot lights too. By the time the light comes on its too late. Race car drivers use mechanical gauges all the time and those are real time. My tire blew out on the freeway and I pulled over because I felt it. Tpms did not warn me at all. Should I keep driving?

Mine gives me an actual pressure in PSI down to the tenth for each tire. It is pretty accurate.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
Am I the only one that actually read this? The 58-69 lives saved per year won't happen until 2054 once all of the old cars are no longer on the road... So that means the math is even uglier until then. 100 million per life or worse in the first years?

ZOMG!!! Look at the high number!!! The sky is falling! :rolleyes:

It isn't going to cost you $100 million so why do you even care? Besides, this will drive manufacturing and create jobs so spending money isn't always 100% negative.
 

Kelvrick

Lifer
Feb 14, 2001
18,422
5
81
ZOMG!!! Look at the high number!!! The sky is falling! :rolleyes:

It isn't going to cost you $100 million so why do you even care? Besides, this will drive manufacturing and create jobs so spending money isn't always 100% negative.

Some people would rather have the collective 100 million doing other things that will provide a lot more benefits than 58-69 lives a year 30 years from now.

What income bracket are you in compared to the rest of America and how much is your car worth compared to the other cars out there?

Not everyone lives in your world.

EDIT: Maybe I'm also projecting my anger at my cars having TPMS sensors and that retarded light on the dashboard that is always on now since I have several sets of wheels. I would need a TPMS set for each set of wheels and then take them to the dealer for reprogramming into my car each time I change the wheels. That is how it is my for my Subaru anyway. Back on topic though, I think my main frustration is that backup cameras are not the best solution for why they're mandating backup cameras.
 
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NoCreativity

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,735
62
91
If this winter proved anything to me it's that people don't give a crap about their surroundings. The amount of people who cleared a single swipe of snow off their driver side windshield and nowhere else was astounding.

If they don't care about seeing out of windows/mirrors what makes you think they will bother to look at the backup screen?

Money would be better spent on the backup sensor and auto brake system.
 

eng2d2

Golden Member
Nov 7, 2013
1,007
38
91
Backup camera and TPms are not cost effective. The cost of tpms are $50 + each for every valve that used to be $1 for a regular valve. Not to mention programming cost if you want to put winter tires. The backup camera if something happens to it probably cost upward of $150 +. I don't even want a LCD readout on my dash. If that fails that will cost north of $300.

These two upgrades will not really improve my driving experience no matter how you spin it.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
If this winter proved anything to me it's that people don't give a crap about their surroundings. The amount of people who cleared a single swipe of snow off their driver side windshield and nowhere else was astounding.

If they don't care about seeing out of windows/mirrors what makes you think they will bother to look at the backup screen?

Money would be better spent on the backup sensor and auto brake system.

That might be even more complex and expensive but I agree, at least that prevents someone who is not paying attention from injuring or killing someone. A backup camera does not do that.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
Backup camera and TPms are not cost effective. The cost of tpms are $50 + each for every valve that used to be $1 for a regular valve. Not to mention programming cost if you want to put winter tires. The backup camera if something happens to it probably cost upward of $150 +. I don't even want a LCD readout on my dash. If that fails that will cost north of $300.

A TPMS would be invaluable on a motorcycle but so far only BMW offers them AFAIK and I'm pretty sure it is an option. You want to talk about inattentive you should see some of the bikes I see on the road. Chain flapping like bad because it is so loose, a visibly underinflated tire and the guy is doing 80mph on the freeway, tire worn down to the steel belt and the guy is cruising along at 60-70mph without a care in the world.

My wife's car has the TPMS and we've had no trouble with it at all and it has actually warned us of a low tire pressure on a couple of occasions (she is notoriously bad at checking these things). My new car has it and I have no complaints with it.

If my LCD fails I'll upgrade the whole system to something better... I've been wanting to do that anyway.
 

MiataNC

Platinum Member
Dec 5, 2007
2,215
1
81
FYI The cost numbers being tossed around are bullshit. You get 2.1B when you multiply 15 million cars sold in 2013 by the projected cost of adding cameras to all of them @$140 per unit. This number includes cars that already shipped with cameras.

If you cut through the BS, the "cost" is half of what is being tossed around by those opposing the cameras...
"The safety administration has estimated that making rear cameras standard on every car would add $58 to $88 to the price of vehicles already equipped with dashboard screens and $159 to $203 for those without them." (Average cost @$127)

"Forty-four percent of 2012 models came with rear cameras standard, and 27 percent had them as options, according to the automotive research firm Edmunds. Nine in 10 new cars had console screens available, according to market research firm iSuppli, which would put the price of adding a camera on the low end of the NHTSA's estimates."

Total number of vehicles sold in 2012: 15M
Est. number of vehicles without cameras sold in 2012: 9M
Average cost of adding cameras= $127
Total est cost if cameras were mandated in 2012 (9M*$127): $1.143B

It having a camera forced on you gets your panties in a wad, demand the dealer drop the price an additional @$127 when you negotiate your deal. Problem?
 
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cbrsurfr

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2000
1,686
1
81
ZOMG!!! Look at the high number!!! The sky is falling! :rolleyes:

It isn't going to cost you $100 million so why do you even care? Besides, this will drive manufacturing and create jobs so spending money isn't always 100% negative.

Drive manufacturing and create jobs overseas... This shit won't be made in the USA, it'll only be installed in the USA for cars built here. All that money will be getting shipped overseas.

I don't care about the $140 per car cost, I just think that money could be better spent somewhere else.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
FYI The cost numbers being tossed around are bullshit. You get 2.1B when you multiply 15 million cars sold in 2013 by the projected cost of adding cameras to all of them @$140 per unit. This number includes cars that already shipped with cameras.

If you cut through the BS, the "cost" is half of what is being tossed around by those opposing the cameras...

Total number of vehicles sold in 2012: 15M
Est. number of vehicles without cameras sold in 2012: 9M
Average cost of adding cameras= $127
Total est cost if cameras were mandated in 2012 (9M*$127): $1.143B

It having a camera forced on you gets your panties in a wad, demand the dealer drop the price an additional @$127 when you negotiate your deal. Problem?

First, excellent numerical analysis.

However, you are mischaracterizing the argument against mandatory backup cameras. The argument is not "it will raise the price of a car for an individual buyer." The argument is, "the market can more efficiently make use of that $1.14 billion in other areas."

By mandating a feature that will, collectively, cost $1.14 billion, we are necessarily taking, collectively, $1.14 billion away from some other area(s) of the economy where, currently, the market would prefer that money actually be spent.

That's the actual argument. It has nothing to do with the cost of an individual vehicle.

I'm not saying the argument is right or wrong, only that your description mischaracterizes it.

ZV
 

A5

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2000
4,902
5
81
FYI The cost numbers being tossed around are bullshit. You get 2.1B when you multiply 15 million cars sold in 2013 by the projected cost of adding cameras to all of them @$140 per unit. This number includes cars that already shipped with cameras.

If you cut through the BS, the "cost" is half of what is being tossed around by those opposing the cameras...

Total number of vehicles sold in 2012: 15M
Est. number of vehicles without cameras sold in 2012: 9M
Average cost of adding cameras= $127
Total est cost if cameras were mandated in 2012 (9M*$127): $1.143B

It having a camera forced on you gets your panties in a wad, demand the dealer drop the price an additional @$127 when you negotiate your deal. Problem?

Not to mention a bunch of cars already ship with it.

If Nissan can ship an (optional) 360* camera system on a $15k Versa Note, it really isn't a big deal.
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
Because what I want, instead of a mirror that works 100% of the time, is a piece of electronics that is heavier and nearly infinitely more prone to failure.

ZV

A mirror can't show you what's not in its line of sight.

This is a safety feature that will save lives, and more importantly lives of those other than the driver (airbags, side impact requirements, etc all benefit the driver).
 

Throckmorton

Lifer
Aug 23, 2007
16,829
3
0
First, excellent numerical analysis.

However, you are mischaracterizing the argument against mandatory backup cameras. The argument is not "it will raise the price of a car for an individual buyer." The argument is, "the market can more efficiently make use of that $1.14 billion in other areas."

By mandating a feature that will, collectively, cost $1.14 billion, we are necessarily taking, collectively, $1.14 billion away from some other area(s) of the economy where, currently, the market would prefer that money actually be spent.

That's the actual argument. It has nothing to do with the cost of an individual vehicle.

I'm not saying the argument is right or wrong, only that your description mischaracterizes it.

ZV

Oh please. You're worried about $1.14 billion that "the market" would rather spend on other things?

Because the market has done such a great job deciding where to spend money. Yeah, we're really suffering by shifting $127 to cars instead of garbage made by communist slave labor.
 
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JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
Drive manufacturing and create jobs overseas... This shit won't be made in the USA, it'll only be installed in the USA for cars built here. All that money will be getting shipped overseas.

I don't care about the $140 per car cost, I just think that money could be better spent somewhere else.

Better cup holders? More lights on the vanity mirrors to help you put your makeup on? Ass warmers? :whiste:

The money getting shipped overseas is a separate issue.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
44
91
A mirror can't show you what's not in its line of sight.

This is a safety feature that will save lives, and more importantly lives of those other than the driver (airbags, side impact requirements, etc all benefit the driver).

Considering that the post you quoted was in response to replacing side view mirrors with cameras and eliminating the mirrors entirely, I'm not sure why you're commenting on it as though it had any relevance whatsoever to back-up cameras being used in addition to traditional mirrors.

Oh please. You're worried about $1.14 billion that "the market" would rather spend on other things?

Because the market has done such a great job deciding where to spend money. Yeah, we're really suffering by shifting $127 to cars instead of garbage made by communist slave labor.

Since you clearly did not read my post before, I'll repeat the most relevant portion in bold:

I'm not saying the argument is right or wrong, only that your description mischaracterizes it.

The issue is not whether the argument is right or wrong, the issue is that people, yourself obviously included given this post, are habitually mischaracterizing it. It's not about the $127 that an individual could spend, it's about the collective $1.14 billion. The argument is that automotive companies could instead be using that $1.14 billion on R&D in other areas (for example, alternative fuels) instead of incurring the cost of installing backup cameras that are not being demanded by the market.

Even if one assumes that the cost will be fully passed on to consumers, the argument is that it's still better to have the market decide where those dollars should be spent. You may be the sort of person who would spend that money on "garbage made by communist slave labor" but that's no reason to project those same purchasing habits onto everyone else. Many people would instead purchase locally grown food instead of less-expensive factory-farmed items. Others would use the money for family trips or for new camping or hiking gear. There are any number of possibilities, but what they all have in common is that spending on such items would be an accurate representation of what those items are worth to the buyer. When spending is instead coerced, as it would be with mandatory back-up cameras, the market is distorted and the price signals fail to give true information

Overall, I'd argue that "the market" has done an incredibly good job of deciding where to spend money. "The market" drove the invention and adoption of the car. "The market" drove most of the advances in computers that we see today. "The market" is largely responsible for the modern communications explosion that has allowed people to easily stay in touch with others who are many thousands of miles away. "The market" drove the innovations that allow me to buy strawberries in November.

Hell, "the market" drove the invention and the current adoption of back-up cameras; there is strong evidence to suggest that the market is already well on its way to having back-up cameras in all cars even without governmental mandates. Think about it, when was the last time you saw a car for sale with manual windows? Features shift downwards and the rate of proliferation for back-up cameras based on consumer demand is suggestive that they will eventually be on nearly all cars even without NHTSA intervention.

With the revised and more accurate calculations that MiataNC provided, the cost per life saved is a little over $16.5 million. If you want to say that, as a society, it's worth it to spend that much to save a life, that's fine. I might even agree. If you want to say that the NHTSA decision is only accelerating what the market would have done anyway, I'm certain to agree. But when you start trying to frame the argument as people being stingy over $127 it's clear that you're not even trying to address the counter-argument and are instead more interested in making emotional appeals rather than dealing in rationality.

ZV
 
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JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,584
984
126
The issue is not whether the argument is right or wrong, the issue is that people, yourself obviously included given this post, are habitually mischaracterizing it. It's not about the $127 that an individual could spend, it's about the collective $1.14 billion. The argument is that automotive companies could instead be using that $1.14 billion on R&D in other areas (for example, alternative fuels) instead of incurring the cost of installing backup cameras that are not being demanded by the market.

Even if one assumes that the cost will be fully passed on to consumers, the argument is that it's still better to have the market decide where those dollars should be spent. You may be the sort of person who would spend that money on "garbage made by communist slave labor" but that's no reason to project those same purchasing habits onto everyone else. Many people would instead purchase locally grown food instead of less-expensive factory-farmed items. Others would use the money for family trips or for new camping or hiking gear. There are any number of possibilities, but what they all have in common is that spending on such items would be an accurate representation of what those items are worth to the buyer. When spending is instead coerced, as it would be with mandatory back-up cameras, the market is distorted and the price signals fail to give true information

Overall, I'd argue that "the market" has done an incredibly good job of deciding where to spend money. "The market" drove the invention and adoption of the car. "The market" drove most of the advances in computers that we see today. "The market" is largely responsible for the modern communications explosion that has allowed people to easily stay in touch with others who are many thousands of miles away. "The market" drove the innovations that allow me to buy strawberries in November.

Hell, "the market" drove the invention and the current adoption of back-up cameras; there is strong evidence to suggest that the market is already well on its way to having back-up cameras in all cars even without governmental mandates. Think about it, when was the last time you saw a car for sale with manual windows? Features shift downwards and the rate of proliferation for back-up cameras based on consumer demand is suggestive that they will eventually be on nearly all cars even without NHTSA intervention.

With the revised and more accurate calculations that MiataNC provided, the cost per life saved is a little over $16.5 million. If you want to say that, as a society, it's worth it to spend that much to save a life, that's fine. I might even agree. If you want to say that the NHTSA decision is only accelerating what the market would have done anyway, I'm certain to agree. But when you start trying to frame the argument as people being stingy over $127 it's clear that you're not even trying to address the counter-argument and are instead more interested in making emotional appeals rather than dealing in rationality.

ZV

It is all but done anyway so ultimately it's a moot point.
 

michal1980

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2003
8,019
43
91
Considering that the post you quoted was in response to replacing side view mirrors with cameras and eliminating the mirrors entirely, I'm not sure why you're commenting on it as though it had any relevance whatsoever to back-up cameras being used in addition to traditional mirrors.



Since you clearly did not read my post before, I'll repeat the most relevant portion in bold:



The issue is not whether the argument is right or wrong, the issue is that people, yourself obviously included given this post, are habitually mischaracterizing it. It's not about the $127 that an individual could spend, it's about the collective $1.14 billion. The argument is that automotive companies could instead be using that $1.14 billion on R&D in other areas (for example, alternative fuels) instead of incurring the cost of installing backup cameras that are not being demanded by the market.

Even if one assumes that the cost will be fully passed on to consumers, the argument is that it's still better to have the market decide where those dollars should be spent. You may be the sort of person who would spend that money on "garbage made by communist slave labor" but that's no reason to project those same purchasing habits onto everyone else. Many people would instead purchase locally grown food instead of less-expensive factory-farmed items. Others would use the money for family trips or for new camping or hiking gear. There are any number of possibilities, but what they all have in common is that spending on such items would be an accurate representation of what those items are worth to the buyer. When spending is instead coerced, as it would be with mandatory back-up cameras, the market is distorted and the price signals fail to give true information

Overall, I'd argue that "the market" has done an incredibly good job of deciding where to spend money. "The market" drove the invention and adoption of the car. "The market" drove most of the advances in computers that we see today. "The market" is largely responsible for the modern communications explosion that has allowed people to easily stay in touch with others who are many thousands of miles away. "The market" drove the innovations that allow me to buy strawberries in November.

Hell, "the market" drove the invention and the current adoption of back-up cameras; there is strong evidence to suggest that the market is already well on its way to having back-up cameras in all cars even without governmental mandates. Think about it, when was the last time you saw a car for sale with manual windows? Features shift downwards and the rate of proliferation for back-up cameras based on consumer demand is suggestive that they will eventually be on nearly all cars even without NHTSA intervention.

With the revised and more accurate calculations that MiataNC provided, the cost per life saved is a little over $16.5 million. If you want to say that, as a society, it's worth it to spend that much to save a life, that's fine. I might even agree. If you want to say that the NHTSA decision is only accelerating what the market would have done anyway, I'm certain to agree. But when you start trying to frame the argument as people being stingy over $127 it's clear that you're not even trying to address the counter-argument and are instead more interested in making emotional appeals rather than dealing in rationality.

ZV

the more accurate cost was already pointed out by me.

The question should boil down to:

is this the best use of money to save lives?

If the goal is to save lives, how many lives can be saved by spending hundreds of millions of dollars a year?

If its greater the 60 or so lives we will save decades from now, shouldn't we be spending the money on those efforts instead of back up cams?
 
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NoCreativity

Golden Member
Feb 28, 2008
1,735
62
91
A mirror can't show you what's not in its line of sight.

This is a safety feature that will save some lives, and more importantly lives of those other than the driver (airbags, side impact requirements, etc all benefit the driver).

FTFY. Inattentive drivers will be inattentive and back-up cameras won't change that.

Will cameras prevent some of the deaths? Absolutely. Are there other technologies out there that better address the problem? Absolutely.