Nforce4 and the hardware-based firewall

[Tanclearas]

The intent of this thread is to inform, not incite. I simply want to share the experiences I've had with nForce4, Network Access Manager, Nvidia, and Gary Key.

First, Gary contacted me after I had expressed frustration (in a News thread) with Nvidia's broken hardware firewall. The hardware firewall was first introduced in nForce4, and it is still broken in the X16 version. It's not hard to find details about this issue, but the long and the short of it is that the firewall can corrupt large downloads when the ActiveArmor SNE (Secure Networking Engine) is set to Offloadable (hardware based). There are various "solutions" out there that generally speaking don't work. These include not installing Nvidia's IDE drivers, only using SATA ports 3 and 4, and not installing various P2P software.

What I will describe here is what email exchanges took place, and when. Where appropriate, I will include snippets of the actual email messages.

Jan 19 - In response to Gary's request in the forums, I emailed him with a short description of my system, how I had installed Windows, and what software had/had not been installed.

Jan 21 - Gary responds letting me know he plans to set up a test machine, and that he would report back

Jan 24 - Emailed Gary letting him know I had to RMA my video card and would reformat again once I had received the replacement.

Jan 27 - Gary responds that he was unable to duplicate the issue on two new installs. He requests that I send "my steps".

Jan 28 - Emailed Gary with a more descriptive listing of my system components, and a detailed description of the steps I took to install Windows. Gary replies ("First of all excellent work"), except I forgot to attach some screenshots of the failures. . I email him back with the attachments.

Feb 11 - Gary emails me to let me know he has opened a case with Nvidia, and asks for my contact information.

Feb 12 - I respond indicating that I have replaced my 7800GTX with an X1900XT and reformatted with the 6.85 driver, using the same steps outlined previously. Still experiencing same problems. Provide Gary with my contact info.

Feb 15 - I email Gary to let him know I'm going on holidays until Feb 28. Gary responds that he will set up a time to discuss Nvidia's findings when I return.

Mar 6 - I email Gary to ask if there is any news. Gary responds that he will try to set something up the following week, hopefully with an Nvidia engineer.

Mar 9 - Gary lets me know that Sean Cleveland from Nvidia "will contact [me] early next week", and that Sean will work directly with me on the issue.

Mar 11 - Gary tells me Nvidia will be working with me directly next week, and includes correspondence with Sean where Sean states he will follow up with me on Monday (Mar 13).

Mar 20 - Sean contacts me. He had the original description of my problem where I was using the 6.82 drivers. He asks that I install the 6.85 drivers.

Mar 21 - Having forgot that I had already completely reinstalled with 6.85, I asked Sean if I should reinstall or just upgrade the drivers.

Mar 23 - Sean instructs me to upgrade without doing OS reinstall.

Mar 24 - I remember that I already had the 6.85's. I email Sean with the complete details of my install process that I originally sent to Gary, but that I had used the 6.85 driver. I tell him that I can make a Ghost image of my drive, and that I am willing to reformat using any directions they want.

Mar 30 - Gary asks if there are any updates, and if the issues are resolved. I respond telling him what I told Sean, and that I hadn't heard anything yet.

Apr 14 - I resend my message to Sean asking for an update.

Apr 20 - Gary asks if there are any updates. I respond that there still hasn't been a response from Sean. Message follows:

I received no update from Sean. I emailed him again on April 14, including the message I emailed to him on March 24 in its entirety. Still no word.

I appreciate what you have done Gary (getting me in contact with someone at Nvidia at all), but I have recently been thinking about detailing this entire process (or lack thereof) on the forums. I believe I have offered Nvidia quite a bit in terms of identifying the issue. I have described the steps I used to install Windows in detail, keeping the system clean the whole way. I have offered to completely reformat and reinstall if they wanted to give me specific directions. If their install method actually lead to a working NAM, it could have at least given a clue as to what steps I (and others) were taking that were breaking NAM.

Anyway, I am going into a period where I might not have as much time to offer Nvidia should they decide to pursue this further. I am still willing to help as much as I can, but it will be more difficult for me to spend much time playing around with different things.

May 9 - One more try from me:

Gary,

I take it you did not have any luck with Nvidia regarding this issue. At this time, I am going to assume Nvidia has decided this is a non-issue and is choosing not to follow through investigating. My last message from Sean was March 23, and the last message from you was April 20.

- Gary responds:

I was at NVIDIA the past couple of days and this subject was discussed in detail with Sean. I will make sure he contacts you ASAP.

As of today, I have not received a response from anyone at Nvidia.

I want to thank Gary Key for sticking with this for so long. I sincerely appreciate that Anandtech took such an interest in following up on the issue.

I have to say that I am sorely disappointed in Nvidia. Initially I was impressed that they were going to deal with me directly. I honestly hoped that a solution could be found to the nagging NAM issue. Sadly, it would seem Nvidia just isn't concerned about trying to figure out the bug that has affected many users. I think it's even more disturbing that they announced the hardware firewall as a feature in their nForce 500 Series chipsets.

I honestly didn't want to bring this issue to the forums, but I think I waited long enough for a response. I think it's important for people to know that when you see complaints about Nvidia products, don't be so certain that Nvidia is actually doing anything about them.

 

[Tanclearas]

Just as an update with the now-released details of the NF 500 series, ActiveArmor is gone.

 

[SolMiester]

Just a correction, NAM entered the scene on NF3, I dont run it though when I 1st got the board I did at 1st try it, but wasnt knowlegable with configuration so ditched it for software firewall.

Interesting how they ditch it in NF5, (as firewall will be present in Vista anyway....lol)

 

[Tanclearas]

NAM was indeed introduced with NF3, but ActiveArmor ("Dedicated hardware engine enhances networking security while reducing CPU overhead") wasn't introduced until NF4.

 

[JAH]

Couple months ago I built my new system using the DFI nF4 Ultra-D motherboard and installed NAM. I was getting BSOD left and right and my downloads were getting corrupted. I spent a couple days searching web and forums and finally nailed down the cause of the problems - NAM. Uninstalled it, and everything as been working great ever since.

NAM = POS

 

[sandeep108]

Originally posted by: JAH
Couple months ago I built my new system using the DFI nF4 Ultra-D motherboard and installed NAM. I was getting BSOD left and right and my downloads were getting corrupted. I spent a couple days searching web and forums and finally nailed down the cause of the problems - NAM. Uninstalled it, and everything as been working great ever since.

NAM = POS

The point is that when they advertise it as a great working solution and then it does NOT work and they do not want to do anything about it.

 

[mbf]

The nVidia hardware firewall was introduced in the nForce3 250gb chipset. I know this, since I'm using a mobo (ASUS K8N-E Deluxe) that features it and I've been using the firewall since I got my board almost 2 years ago.

When the firewall works, it works great, unless you're using any kind of P2P. After about 15 minutes of e.g. BitTorrent use the firewall kills off the connection. There are also numerous other bugs associated with the firewall, such as having to apply a customized profile at least twice. If that is not done, the firewall will "forget" the settings at the next reboot or cold boot.

After trying to get nVidia interested in the issues since about 14 days after I initially got my board, I finally managed to do so about a year ago. For about 2 months I was in direct contact with engineers at nVidia doing a lot of tests and even sending them an image of my system setup. I was even asked by nVidia if they could purchase my hardware to troubleshoot. I declined for several reasons, but in retrospect I should perhaps have agreed. After approx. 2 months time all communication with nVidia ceased and no mail from me has been answered since.

I'm still not quite sure if the firewall as such is gone from the nForce driver pack, since the 9.34 drivers found on the nVidia FTP site contain a NAM setup. I've never actually found out *what* ActiveArmour is all about, since it seems to be a feature added on top of the firewall. Any suggestions? Personally, I'd be really sad to see the firewall gone, since this is one of the primary features for me in the nForce chipset.

Best regards,
mbf

 

[R3MF]

i understand that the ethernet acceleration part had problems, but i'd be disappointed if they killed the firewall, i use it now and did so also on my SN25P shuttle.

always worked great.

 

[bongsteen]

i got no problem with the firewall actually i am using it my systems. too bad we are not getting it on the new nf5.