Next Saturday, I finally get to play..
- Thread starter TecHNooB
- Start date
- Nov 30, 2005
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Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I rather play CSSI'll give it a shot tho. My bro is hooked on that game.
You should join us on Saturday: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2178221&enterthread=y
KT
Miklebud
Platinum Member
- Nov 20, 2002
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Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I rather play CSS
You should join us on Saturday: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2178221&enterthread=y
KT
I'll be there! :Q
- Sep 10, 2005
- 7,458
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Originally posted by: Miklebud
Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Originally posted by: TecHNooB
I rather play CSS
You should join us on Saturday: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2178221&enterthread=y
KT
I'll be there! :Q
I'll try to be there... depending on how the 15 hour drive back to Jersey goes.
Because they expected servers to limit the amount of medics on a team, but most servers are too stupid to figure that out. 2 or 3 ubers in 32man isn't at all unbalanced. But when 5-10 charge you and can actually get a cap done while invuln... now that's a problem.
The balance will naturally return to the game once they realize the new medic weapons are nothing to write home about, and go back to their standard classes.
But the ubercharge is ABSOLUTELY necessary for the game. Otherwise an entire team could go engineer and own with 10 turrets on the control point.
But the ubercharge is ABSOLUTELY necessary for the game. Otherwise an entire team could go engineer and own with 10 turrets on the control point.
Maleficus
Diamond Member
- May 2, 2001
- 7,682
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The ubercharge is absolutely stupid, instead of implementing a retarded mechanic like invincibility (why is the medic also invul?), all you have to do is PUT GRENADES BACK IN THE FREAKING GAME, and engineers will go back to being useful but not uber (since for whatever reason rockets don't do crap for damage, to anything...) Also why do the medics have such insane melee damage? better yet why does ANYONE except the spy have such insane melee damage? why can't i attack while in cloak (the attack should cancel the cloak) but instead i have to sit there, manually uncloak and wait like 3 seconds to attack while everyone casually turns around and pumps 13,000 rounds into my face.
Why do medics have a mechanic to heal based on damage they deal? why do medics get to heal people at range, through walls, at a rate that can easily nullify any damage being done by a single person?
The entire setup is just broken, no not 'different' and requiring a change of strategy or a new and fresh perspective, broken.
Why do medics have a mechanic to heal based on damage they deal? why do medics get to heal people at range, through walls, at a rate that can easily nullify any damage being done by a single person?
The entire setup is just broken, no not 'different' and requiring a change of strategy or a new and fresh perspective, broken.
- Nov 30, 2005
- 50,231
- 118
- 116
I'm sorry you dislike the game, but really it works quite well once you have been playing for a little bit and get a feel for what you can and cannot get away with.
Medics cannot heal through walls and most of the time boxes, pillars, etc. break the heal stream. The mechanic of healing based on how much damage you do is only when you have a specific weapon equipped and that weapon does not have any criticals associated, so it's a trade-off. There are some server that give a bonus to health based on how much damage you are dealing, but they are rare from what I've seen.
Being able to backstab (or attack at all) while cloaked is just a terrible idea. Spies are very powerful if you know how to use them. The whole point of the cloak is so you can infiltrate the enemy, then become one of them before making your move. Giving them the ability to attack while cloaked would make them damn near invincible.
You are one of maybe 3 people I've seen that actually want grenades back in the game. I do not think they would be a valuable addition (re-addition, whatever) to the game.
I agree the Medic melee damage is quite insane and the reach can be quite incredible for whatever reason. Still, I rarely get killed by a Medic's bonesaw as they are very vulnerable when running around with their bonesaw out.
I really do not find that the ubercharge caues an unbalance in the game. It can if there are a large number of Medics on the team, ubering all of the attack classes over and over, but in general it seems to work out ok.
Anyway, those are just my thoughts on what you mentioned.
Cheers,
KT
I think invulnerability was a poor replacement for grenades. But I don't let it affect the fun I have in TF2. The game just has a real nice presentation about it that makes it enjoyable to play. The key thing a lot of players have yet to figure out is that you don't need to attack people with invulnerability, you also don't need to kill them. You have several choices, you can retreat, you can attempt to bounce them out of play, you can run past and kill their teammates which are most likely not prepared for someone getting past the moving wall, you can also just leave stickies behind an invuln and the rest of the team will be trapped by the stickies. And here is the big point a lot of people really fail to grasp, an invulnerable bunch of players cannot cap a point. That means if someone is invulnerable in some sort of attempt to push a point, all you have to do is wait for their invuln to wear off and bombard that point, sending them back home, also, counter acting with your own invuln on a point makes it basically uncappable.
videogames101
Diamond Member
- Aug 24, 2005
- 6,783
- 27
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someone bad at TF2? lol,
actually, the invul adds perfect balance to the game and adds a deadlock breaking ability most other mp FPSs lack. face it, TF2 is perfectly balanced, not a class out of place.
Maleficus
Diamond Member
- May 2, 2001
- 7,682
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the ability to capture a point is meaningless, they can still fire and cannot be damaged. Engineers become entirely pointless since you can just run in there and eliminate all defenses, especially those that are immobile. 95% of the game is capturing points, that's pretty easy to do when your defense is going to be centered in one spot and the offense can mount an invulnerable attack force...
Maleficus
Diamond Member
- May 2, 2001
- 7,682
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KT as for your points: I'll have to take your word for it that medics can't heal through walls since I don't own the game, only played the free weekend. I may be getting amnestic in my old age but i seem to clearly remember medics healing people around corners and the like.
critical hits on the weapons were a silly mechanic as it is, since they are random and not skill based. this makes the 'trade-off' silly as you critical at random intervals which may or may not help you, but you will ALWAYS receive the benefit of the healing from a hit with the weapon, no brainer.
The spy's cloak is very limited, it's short in duration and slow to recharge, there is no reason he shouldn't be able to uncloak via an attack, it's a single instance which makes him instantly vulnerable. His disguise is, and always has been, a fairly idiotic mechanic since it is entirely unbelievable, espeically since they removed feign death. You can't heal so pretending to be a medic is stupid, especially when medics ALWAYS healing to get their stupid invul counter up, you can't be a HW because you move too fast and will never fire at enemies, plus it doesn't make sense for you to be retreating, ever. can't be a scout can't be anything except a sniper or an engineer really, and snipers are few and far between. The cloak was a great idea but poorly implemented, same with the disguise.
There is no reason to remove grenades, you didn't seem to give one either, just that people liked the fact that they aren't in it. Of course people like it, gamers of today suck and like to have things be really easy, without having to worry about something actually being able to get an attack around a corner, things go a lot better for them... (yes I know the demo man can attack around the corner, one class, whoopee!)
ubercharge > defense.
Also all these points are to be taken with the assumption that you are playing with/against someone who has a modicum of skill, therefore eliminating the retarded monkeys you may want to use for retorts.
critical hits on the weapons were a silly mechanic as it is, since they are random and not skill based. this makes the 'trade-off' silly as you critical at random intervals which may or may not help you, but you will ALWAYS receive the benefit of the healing from a hit with the weapon, no brainer.
The spy's cloak is very limited, it's short in duration and slow to recharge, there is no reason he shouldn't be able to uncloak via an attack, it's a single instance which makes him instantly vulnerable. His disguise is, and always has been, a fairly idiotic mechanic since it is entirely unbelievable, espeically since they removed feign death. You can't heal so pretending to be a medic is stupid, especially when medics ALWAYS healing to get their stupid invul counter up, you can't be a HW because you move too fast and will never fire at enemies, plus it doesn't make sense for you to be retreating, ever. can't be a scout can't be anything except a sniper or an engineer really, and snipers are few and far between. The cloak was a great idea but poorly implemented, same with the disguise.
There is no reason to remove grenades, you didn't seem to give one either, just that people liked the fact that they aren't in it. Of course people like it, gamers of today suck and like to have things be really easy, without having to worry about something actually being able to get an attack around a corner, things go a lot better for them... (yes I know the demo man can attack around the corner, one class, whoopee!)
ubercharge > defense.
Also all these points are to be taken with the assumption that you are playing with/against someone who has a modicum of skill, therefore eliminating the retarded monkeys you may want to use for retorts.
- Nov 30, 2005
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A well conceived defense can overcome this. On any map I can think of there is a way to structure your defense so as not to be comepltely overtaken by a single uber, or even two coordinated ubers. Sure there are those Engineers that will build all of their gear in one spot, right next to the other Engineer(s) which leaves them open to destruction, not only by Ubers but by Spies, but if you space thigns out and actually plan what you are doing, it takes a very well coordinated attack to overcome it. Also, try and keep a Demo back to protect and a Pyro to Spy-check and you should be able to provide at least a modicum of resistence to a well-coordinated team.
KT
- Nov 30, 2005
- 50,231
- 118
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In some ways I agree with you about crits. In fact I'm still somewhat on the fence about them; I can't decide whether they are just a bit of a cop-out, or an interesting game mechanic and game-balancer.
I still think your arguments against the cloak and the disguise are quite weak. A well-practiced Spy (I'm not one of them BTW) can easily overcome any perceived deficiencies you have noted in your post.
I really can't argue too much about the grenades, but I just do not see a place/need for them in TF2, in it's current incarnation anyway. Maybe something will change later on, but as it stands right now I would find it a completely unnecessary and unwelcome addition.
KT
@Maleficus:
You only played the free weekend, how do you qualify as having 'a modicum of skill'?
Critical hits are meh, just part of TF2's style.
Have you played CoD4 and the grenade spam issue that is so prevalent? Having entire teams lob grenades near a cap point seems... eugh.
You think rockets don't do enough damage? You're in the minority.
Here's a situation: 6 engineers are fully set up at their spawn cap. The other team is screwed without invulnerability. Criticize it all you want because the mechanic isn't perfect, but it works well enough for what it is.
The only point that I'll concede to you is that Spies are too weak. Disguises won't fool anyone who has played the game for more than a week. It's pretty much used to avoid turret damage and that's it.
You only played the free weekend, how do you qualify as having 'a modicum of skill'?
Critical hits are meh, just part of TF2's style.
Have you played CoD4 and the grenade spam issue that is so prevalent? Having entire teams lob grenades near a cap point seems... eugh.
You think rockets don't do enough damage? You're in the minority.
Here's a situation: 6 engineers are fully set up at their spawn cap. The other team is screwed without invulnerability. Criticize it all you want because the mechanic isn't perfect, but it works well enough for what it is.
The only point that I'll concede to you is that Spies are too weak. Disguises won't fool anyone who has played the game for more than a week. It's pretty much used to avoid turret damage and that's it.
Maleficus
Diamond Member
- May 2, 2001
- 7,682
- 0
- 0
Jesus Christ man... are you serious? how can i be decent at a game if I haven't played it for a arbitrary minimum amount of time? It's an FPS game and while it has it's nuances like everything else, it's core is the same, and i've played more than my fair share of FPS games.
CoD4 grenades are problematic not because grenades are problematic, but because their radius and relative amount of damage is ridiculously high.
Rocket's don't do crap, espeically coupled with the near instant heal of medics/engineers to their machinery. The difference is Engi's have to replenish their metal which is impossible to do versus an uber HW or pyro, easy to do vs a soldier.
If what you say about engineers were true, they would dominate in games with an engineer class, this isn't even remotely the case. they went about solving a problem that didn't exist and created a much bigger, uglier, nastier problem. go play TFC, see for yourself.
CoD4 grenades are problematic not because grenades are problematic, but because their radius and relative amount of damage is ridiculously high.
Rocket's don't do crap, espeically coupled with the near instant heal of medics/engineers to their machinery. The difference is Engi's have to replenish their metal which is impossible to do versus an uber HW or pyro, easy to do vs a soldier.
If what you say about engineers were true, they would dominate in games with an engineer class, this isn't even remotely the case. they went about solving a problem that didn't exist and created a much bigger, uglier, nastier problem. go play TFC, see for yourself.
PhatoseAlpha
Platinum Member
- Apr 10, 2005
- 2,131
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Ubercharge is meant to be greater then defense. It's a deliberate punishment for turtling. Thanks to Engineers and stickies, defenders already have significant advantages over attackers. Ubercharge is the equalizer. Defenders who sit back and do nothing but build and wait are rightfully going to get a faceful of Uber. That's the penalty for cowardice. There are plenty of ways of dealing with Ubers, the simplest of which is simply to kill the medic before he gets his charge up. That of course, requires doing something other then sitting in the safety of your base.
There are other ways of dealing with Ubers. Ubers take no damage, but still get pushed back, making a well placed turret exceptionally hard to take out for a heavy or pyro. They can also be bounced, and then pinned to the sky by the turret, completely wasting the uber.
In short, as long as you aren't sitting in your base expecting sentries to do all the work for you, ubers are quite manageable.
Far from being a problem, it's the ultimate solution to "I'm gonna sit in my base and do nothing." and it works beautifully.
In order for Grenades to represent any significant threat to turrets, which already take more damage then a fully boosted heavy, they'd need to have huge damage and a large splash - since, lets be blunt, you ain't gonna be accurate bounding something blindly around a corner. In short, welcome back to CoD4 spam.
The demoman bouncy already demonstrates quite clearly that any grenade even close to reasonably balanced against people is useless against machines.
While a stream of 4 normal rockets, reload, 4 normal rockets will typically not do enough damage to outdo an engy with a dispenser (and they ALWAYS have a dispenser). But soldiers have the highest crit rate in the game, and 3 normal rockets + 1 crit blow up a sentry, even with an engineer repairing it.
Arguing about crits being random making them unreasonable is patently ridiculous in any game which randomness plays any role. Which, thanks to firing spreads at the very least, is all of them.
There are other ways of dealing with Ubers. Ubers take no damage, but still get pushed back, making a well placed turret exceptionally hard to take out for a heavy or pyro. They can also be bounced, and then pinned to the sky by the turret, completely wasting the uber.
In short, as long as you aren't sitting in your base expecting sentries to do all the work for you, ubers are quite manageable.
Far from being a problem, it's the ultimate solution to "I'm gonna sit in my base and do nothing." and it works beautifully.
In order for Grenades to represent any significant threat to turrets, which already take more damage then a fully boosted heavy, they'd need to have huge damage and a large splash - since, lets be blunt, you ain't gonna be accurate bounding something blindly around a corner. In short, welcome back to CoD4 spam.
The demoman bouncy already demonstrates quite clearly that any grenade even close to reasonably balanced against people is useless against machines.
While a stream of 4 normal rockets, reload, 4 normal rockets will typically not do enough damage to outdo an engy with a dispenser (and they ALWAYS have a dispenser). But soldiers have the highest crit rate in the game, and 3 normal rockets + 1 crit blow up a sentry, even with an engineer repairing it.
Arguing about crits being random making them unreasonable is patently ridiculous in any game which randomness plays any role. Which, thanks to firing spreads at the very least, is all of them.
Maleficus
Diamond Member
- May 2, 2001
- 7,682
- 0
- 0
I swear you guys are going to drive me to blood lust here soon.
Deliberate punishment for turtling!? I sincerely hope my sarcasm meter is full on BUSTED. The game is CTF/Point defense BASED there is no 'turtling' when your objective is to defend the damn point. punishment for cowardice? ITS CALLED PLAYING THE GAME. kill the medic before he can get his charge up? what are you going to do go in there spawn? there is an award for achieving uber before the end of setup, it's that quick and easy. christ man, do you even play the game?
GJ you pushed the HW back, he's still firing at your face.
grenades too difficult to use? can't be accurate? videogames101, take note THIS is where you accuse someone who sucks of putting their bias in game development decisions. the radius doesn't need to be huge, that would be stupid, nor does the damage need to be excessive.
The problem with the demoman grenade is it doesn't explode on contact via a direct hit nor is it consistent in it's firing height/range.
Rockets don't do shit /rehash
random < skill.
Deliberate punishment for turtling!? I sincerely hope my sarcasm meter is full on BUSTED. The game is CTF/Point defense BASED there is no 'turtling' when your objective is to defend the damn point. punishment for cowardice? ITS CALLED PLAYING THE GAME. kill the medic before he can get his charge up? what are you going to do go in there spawn? there is an award for achieving uber before the end of setup, it's that quick and easy. christ man, do you even play the game?
GJ you pushed the HW back, he's still firing at your face.
grenades too difficult to use? can't be accurate? videogames101, take note THIS is where you accuse someone who sucks of putting their bias in game development decisions. the radius doesn't need to be huge, that would be stupid, nor does the damage need to be excessive.
The problem with the demoman grenade is it doesn't explode on contact via a direct hit nor is it consistent in it's firing height/range.
Rockets don't do shit /rehash
random < skill.
TFC didn't have a firing spread (unless you count the pellets of the shotguns). TF2 has a significant firing spread with such weapons as the grenade launcher.
They are definitely different types of games, and to me, TFC is far superior except in current popularity.
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