News about 'the matrix' - no, not film #4, but the original is a meta story about transgender people

[dasherHampton]

Romeo and Juliet is clearly a transgender play.

The two main characters are different sides of the same transgender person and the strife between the families is representative of the conflict and alienation transgender people feel with society as a whole. The ending fits the narrative perfectly and brings it to its logical conclusion (suicide rates among transgender people are shockingly high).

It's not hard to retcon this kind of stuff.

 

[pmv]

Well, I think a combination of the evidence, and opinion about psychology and plausibility, where accepting their story clearly makes the most sense to me over their making it up.

Though 'making things up' is pretty-much their job description. I liked the movies, for what it's worth, though it's a shame the sequels didn't live up to the first one. In general though I don't think i agree that artists get to definitively determine 'the meaning' of their work.

 

[Craig234]

Though 'making things up' is pretty-much their job description. I liked the movies, for what it's worth, though it's a shame the sequels didn't live up to the first one. In general though I don't think i agree that artists get to definitively determine 'the meaning' of their work.

There's a difference between making things up for a story, and making up lies in comments. They didn't definitely determine the meaning of their work, they explained what they were intending.

 

[Craig234]

Romeo and Juliet is clearly a transgender play.

The two main characters are different sides of the same transgender person and the strife between the families is representative of the conflict and alienation transgender people feel with society as a whole. The ending fits the narrative perfectly and brings it to its logical conclusion (suicide rates among transgender people are shockingly high).

It's not hard to retcon this kind of stuff.

I assume that's a weak, misguided attempt at sarcasm.

 

[sandorski]

Though 'making things up' is pretty-much their job description. I liked the movies, for what it's worth, though it's a shame the sequels didn't live up to the first one. In general though I don't think i agree that artists get to definitively determine 'the meaning' of their work.

It would be near impossible for 2 and 3 to live up to the Original. How could the realization that you are the pinnacle that all aspire to be and the resultant loss of all doubt about it be topped? Everything else past that point is Anti-Climactic.

 

[destrekor]

As I heard it quoted from the sisters themselves in an article recently, the real story here is that it is about "transformation" and becoming what you choose to be (the red v blue pill may be something too, as oestrogen therapy was apparently a red pill?).

 

[TheELF]

(the red v blue pill may be something too, as oestrogen therapy was apparently a red pill?).

Yeah they have that in this article as well but it makes no sense even within that single scene,I mean if red is oestrogen then what choice is the blue pill?Testosterone to become a boy although you already are one?If it was conceptualized as a transgender thing from the beginning there should only be the choice between taking the red pill or going home and to bed to wake up the same as you were before.

 

[destrekor]

Yeah they have that in this article as well but it makes no sense even within that single scene,I mean if red is oestrogen then what choice is the blue pill?Testosterone to become a boy although you already are one?If it was conceptualized as a transgender thing from the beginning there should only be the choice between taking the red pill or going home and to bed to wake up the same as you were before.

But that's exactly what the blue pill was?

The blue pill was forget this little sideshow ever happened and wake up in the fake world matrix fully accepting it as reality in your life.
So, no it wasn't meant to mean additional treatment like a Test pill or something, it was meant to just be a "make this all a dream" escape clause. In reality the message could have been the same without the blue pill at all, but it did help with that whole memory thing which would eat you alive if you just had to pretend that whole chat and robo-bug in belly and all that never happened. So in the movie world, I think it does play well. Again, it could be a total retcon, but I think the central conceit, that the film is wholly about transformation, is about as boiled down as you can get; it literally is about a character transforming to not only accept what goes against initial instinct, but then wholly adopting it and living with best effort in that new you. Another way to phrase is it character growth after a major revelation, which I acknowledge is more often the language used to describe that kind of inner growth, but it's also transformative in many contexts.

 

[Captante]

As I heard it quoted from the sisters themselves in an article recently, the real story here is that it is about "transformation" and becoming what you choose to be (the red v blue pill may be something too, as oestrogen therapy was apparently a red pill?).

Sounds like something they came up with after the fact.

Romeo and Juliet is clearly a transgender play

It's not hard to retcon this kind of stuff

heheh .... you said hard ... heheh

I assume that's a weak, misguided attempt at sarcasm

I wouldn't count on it these days lol.

 

[pauldun170]

Counter
2 kids who were artistic sci-fi geeks mined that genre their entire life.
Being part of the comics scene introduces them to writing screen plays because that's simply the natural way of things.
After writing a fairly interesting screenplay (Bound), they refine their neuromancer script. Unlike the 1000's of other neuromancer scripts, the Watchowskis pull from the right selection of films to spice up the movie a wee bit more.
Money and fame follow.
Quality films? Not so much (Unless the Screenplay lifts from an 80's comic and starts with a V )

As they age, where they become less known for being writers and directors and its more about "them for who they are", they now appear to be pulling the classic scumbag move.

Instead of crediting those that inspired during the screenplay writing process, they now appear to be making this all about themselves.
Instead of simply acknowledge the books, comics and films that "is" The Matrix, they basically now turn around and say "f' all that.

"I was inspired by "me" and therefore the transgender community should celebrate me for making this film about me because I'm one of you therefore The Matrix is about US and please remember to invite me to your parties and can the Transgender community start complaining that that their are not enough Transgender produced movies because everyone keeps wincing when we show them all our new crappy pitches...."
- Wachowski 's

As for "They would have never wrote that if they were not who they are as LGBTQ" argument, it might have worked better if anything in the Matrix was truly original. The film is basically a well done merging of 70's-80's Cyberpunk combined with some of the Anime and Kung Fu that just about every nerdy kid from that period consumed in bulk.

 

[lxskllr]

In honor of this thread, I just watched The Matrix for the first time ever. Seeing the source of a gnu/linux screensaver and Max Payne material was interesting, but a transgender statement is bollocks imo.

 

[Craig234]

Sounds like something they came up with after the fact.

Sounds like you coming up with the idea that it sounds like it's after the fact.

 

[Craig234]

Counter
2 kids who were artistic sci-fi geeks mined that genre their entire life.
Being part of the comics scene introduces them to writing screen plays because that's simply the natural way of things.
After writing a fairly interesting screenplay (Bound), they refine their neuromancer script. Unlike the 1000's of other neuromancer scripts, the Watchowskis pull from the right selection of films to spice up the movie a wee bit more.
Money and fame follow.
Quality films? Not so much (Unless the Screenplay lifts from an 80's comic and starts with a V )

As they age, where they become less known for being writers and directors and its more about "them for who they are", they now appear to be pulling the classic scumbag move.

Instead of crediting those that inspired during the screenplay writing process, they now appear to be making this all about themselves.
Instead of simply acknowledge the books, comics and films that "is" The Matrix, they basically now turn around and say "f' all that.

"I was inspired by "me" and therefore the transgender community should celebrate me for making this film about me because I'm one of you therefore The Matrix is about US and please remember to invite me to your parties and can the Transgender community start complaining that that their are not enough Transgender produced movies because everyone keeps wincing when we show them all our new crappy pitches...."
- Wachowski 's

As for "They would have never wrote that if they were not who they are as LGBTQ" argument, it might have worked better if anything in the Matrix was truly original. The film is basically a well done merging of 70's-80's Cyberpunk combined with some of the Anime and Kung Fu that just about every nerdy kid from that period consumed in bulk.

Wow, some people really hate transgender people. As for it not being totally original - welcome to Hollywood. Almost nothing is. One example that comes to mind that seems like it is Being John Malkovic, but maybe that has a lot borrowed also. I've just been watching how Heart's biggest hits - Crazy on You, Barracuda - had a lot taken from others. Though they aren't transgender.

 

[brianmanahan]

forget the matrix, i think speed racer was their real masterpiece

 

[pauldun170]

Wow, some people really hate transgender people. As for it not being totally original - welcome to Hollywood. Almost nothing is. One example that comes to mind that seems like it is Being John Malkovic, but maybe that has a lot borrowed also. I've just been watching how Heart's biggest hits - Crazy on You, Barracuda - had a lot taken from others. Though they aren't transgender.

Hope that first sentence wasn't directed towards me.

 

[Kaido]

forget the matrix, i think speed racer was their real masterpiece

I had to look this up to verify and WOW they did direct the live-action movie!

 

[Craig234]

Hope that first sentence wasn't directed towards me.

It was; it is my opinion about what your post says about your feelings. Do you think that attacking their character that was and accusing them of being narcissistic liars for the crime of working a transgender experience into their movie was caring toward transgender people?

 

[pauldun170]

It was; it is my opinion about what your post says about your feelings. Do you think that attacking their character that was and accusing them of being narcissistic liars for the crime of working a transgender experience into their movie was caring toward transgender people?

That's unfortunate.
I approached the link differently than you.

The way I felt about it, you could have swapped out Transgender for any other community in the US and my response would have been the same. I put minimal thought in to the transgender angle and instead focused on the artistic angle while considering the profession, their career and their age.

Based on the Screenplay, their prior work and their own historical comments, I'm in camp retcon. It is based completely on Lily and Lana and their portfolio and no one else.

If you choose to interpret that as an attack on anyone else or an opinion on how someone lives their life then I really have no response to you.
The Wachawskis are worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
It is generally accepted that I can talk shit about 2 rich assholes and they do not get a waiver because they are transgender.

 

[Craig234]

It is generally accepted that I can talk shit about 2 rich assholes and they do not get a waiver because they are transgender.

You can 'talk shit' about rich people and transgender people do not get a waiver. But when the shit you talk is shit, that's not ok. Your statement is two straw men. I can talk shit about 'rich asshole Hillary' all day, but attack her for her private server, Benghazi, or Pizzagate and I'll criticize you.

 

[pauldun170]

You can 'talk shit' about rich people and transgender people do not get a waiver. But when the shit you talk is shit, that's not ok. Your statement is two straw men. I can talk shit about 'rich asshole Hillary' all day, but attack her for her private server, Benghazi, or Pizzagate and I'll criticize you.

You do realize that this thread is only here because Lily ripped off a fan theory.

 

[TheELF]

But that's exactly what the blue pill was?

The blue pill was forget this little sideshow ever happened and wake up in the fake world matrix fully accepting it as reality in your life.
So, no it wasn't meant to mean additional treatment like a Test pill or something, it was meant to just be a "make this all a dream" escape clause. In reality the message could have been the same without the blue pill at all, but it did help with that whole memory thing which would eat you alive if you just had to pretend that whole chat and robo-bug in belly and all that never happened. So in the movie world, I think it does play well.

Neo was still plugged into the matrix at that point,they did need the red pill to locate his physical body after the disconnection but the blue pill was useless within the logic of the film, they could just delete his memory from the computer they used to access the matrix.
It was a purely visual decision because it looks cooler to have a visual duality , a visual choice,but if you are a filmmaker and want this scene to mean something you will care less about how it looks and more about making sure that it actually means what you want it to.

Again, it could be a total retcon, but I think the central conceit, that the film is wholly about transformation, is about as boiled down as you can get; it literally is about a character transforming to not only accept what goes against initial instinct, but then wholly adopting it and living with best effort in that new you. Another way to phrase is it character growth after a major revelation, which I acknowledge is more often the language used to describe that kind of inner growth, but it's also transformative in many contexts.

He isn't even transforming he stays the same for the whole movie,he is a hacker while plugged into the matrix and he stays a hacker after being plugged out of the matrix,he is hacking the virtual world to enable "god-mode" his whole character arch is that after repeatedly being shown that you can hack the matrix he finally realizes that hey you can hack the matrix.

 

[Craig234]

You do realize that this thread is only here because Lily ripped off a fan theory.

No, but I can believe that, and have no problem with it being pointed out if true. It's only more than that if the real motive for attacking about it isn't just to tell the truth or be critical of it on the merits, but because she is transgender.

 

[gorobei]

the first movie had a minor bit about trans. the neb crewmate "Switch" (white haired woman) was supposed to be one gender in the real world and the other gender in the matrix, hence the name Switch. it proved to difficult to convey visually or explain with dialogue in the limited time, so they just had the actress do both roles.

that said it is a bit of a retcon/stretch to say the entire movie is about it.

 

[Craig234]

that said it is a bit of a retcon/stretch to say the entire movie is about it.

My reading of it is not that 'the entire movie is about it', but that it's one part, almost the entire movie strikes me as sci-fi unrelated to any transgender meaning. Just one particular bit.

 

[Captante]

Sounds like you coming up with the idea that it sounds like it's after the fact.

Not much gets by you huh?