Newest webserver software for Linux beats MS hands down

[Ameesh]

god i wish you guys could see how incredibley awsome the network at MS is (in Redmond) you might then just get a glimpse at how powerful and useful Win2K Server is.


the other note is all you linux guys are comparing "experiended" linux admins to "dumb" Win2K admins. There are dumb linux admins. I myself am a mediocre win2k admin and my server has been runnning not stop for several months, id ont do anything to it, it just sits and works i have a website, a ftp site, and it acts as the Domain controller for my home network, also runs a DFS. I am not an admin just a coder yet i got a fully functional and stable server running.


you guys are just trying to be trendy, put credit where its due.

and that guy comparing his crappy red hat box to win2K advance server is a moron. clearly he has no understanding of how powerfule advance server is.

 

[nd]

Ameesh,

I'm afraid you have fallen into the "Linux users are just trying to be trendy and should be ignored" trap. I've seen this so much the past 2 years it seems it's more trendy to go against Linux because of this.

Your arguments about IIS are pretty weak. More "robust"? Could your clarify that please? Are you saying IIS is more "robust" than Apache?? Surely this isn't what you're saying (btw, TUX can pass requests down to Apache as well -- furthermore, there is a new web server implemented completely in user space that is as fast as TUX, so this isn't a dirty kernel hack).

Stop drooling over how powerful you think Windows 2000 is and give UNIX a chance. Seriously.

 

[joohang]

I won't even comment on the article. It would be just as ridiculous as me saying: "Microsoft servers rule because they beat the crap out of all competition in the TPC-C benchmarks."

 

[joohang]

<< Complicated is better. Crappy, unorganized, buggy code is the way to go. To hell with this &quot;easy to write&quot; stuff. >>


Care to expand on that? When was the last time you looked into Microsoft technologies, sir? Are you thinking back about 5~10 years ago?

And what's so wrong about making development easier? Would you code web apps in assembly?

 

[AdamDuritz99]

<<the other note is all you linux guys are comparing &quot;experiended&quot; linux admins to &quot;dumb&quot; Win2K admins. There are dumb linux admins. I myself am a mediocre win2k admin and my server has been runnning not stop for several months, id ont do anything to it, it just sits and works i have a website, a ftp site, and it acts as the Domain controller for my home network, also runs a DFS. I am not an admin just a coder yet i got a fully functional and stable server running.>>

dammit man, your starting to piss me off. First of i took all my networking classes based around nt. cisco for my ccna, using nt. MSCE...uhh..yah thats nt. I&quot;m not a dumb win2k admin, and most people aren't. actually, the smart 2k admins, realize linux is better for networks. Yes 2k pro is fvcking awesome for workstations. why? b/c it has a good kernal that doesn't crash, not to much bloatware, has a lot of software to use with it. granted, linux doesn't have a complete choice of a+ software, but it's awesome for networking, a hell of a lot securer(sp?, nothing is hack proof though), and if you even say it's not robust again...i will call you a dumb@ss. do you realize majority (over 60%) of webservers use apache on unix.

**Disclaimer**
sorry about my cussing, and attitude. Ignorance is not bliss(to me)

peace
sean

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

<< Wrong. Linux has the most documentation of any OS. If you dont believe me try doing searches for the HOWTO's. >>



Yes, they are alot of howtos... scattered all over the place and very poorly written.

 

[joohang]

<< Captain, this highlights my point towards system responsibility and security of the system. A MS sysadmin can easily stick to the plug n? play? n? forget about it. He plugs it in follows a few prompts and lo and behold he?s got intra/internet connectivity for his users. But his ignorance and heavy reliance on plug and play has left huge security holes. Untrained MS sysadmins are not as systems liable as the very same Linux user who sets up a network from scratch, Building a network from the ground up gives more knowledge than pnp?s any day. >>


And I've seen lots of arrogant admins from Novell, Solaris or Unix background who do not properly train themselves before they administer a Microsoft-based server.

Linux by itself isn't secure by default either, btw. And this varies a lot depending on the distros and web server installed.

 

[Descartes]

<< Wrong. Linux has the most documentation of any OS. If you dont believe me try doing searches for the HOWTO's >>



As CaptainGoodnight pointed out, that was an absurd statement. Many of the &quot;HOWTO's&quot; look like they were written by someone w/ little more than a 6th grade education. I'll stick to MSDN reading articles by the likes of Pattison, Robbins, Prosise, Box, etc.. Thanks.

 

[nd]

<< >> Wrong. Linux has the most documentation of any OS. If you dont believe me try doing searches for the HOWTO's.

Yes, they are alot of howtos... scattered all over the place and very poorly written. >>

Delicious irony. Seriously though, I have no complaints about the quality of the Linux HOWTOs available. Documentation has not even remotely bothered me.

 

[nd]

<< As CaptainGoodnight pointed out, that was an absurd statement. Many of the &quot;HOWTO's&quot; look like they were written by someone w/ little more than a 6th grade education. I'll stick to MSDN reading articles by the likes of Pattison, Robbins, Prosise, Box, etc.. Thanks. >>

Please point out the specific HOWTOs you're referring to.

 

[joohang]

Descartes,

I just bought the July issue of MSDN Magazine. Gotta get out of OT and read the VB.NET article.

My personal favourite is Dino Esposito. His articles tend to focus on stuff I'm most interested in (i.e. remote scripting). I carry a few old issues with me and read them on my way to work. I learn some new interesting stuff every time I open that magazine.

Not to mention the humongous MSDN library (they merged the workshop into it with the new site redesign), various SDKs, etc.

MSDN rules.

 

[joohang]

<< Delicious irony. Seriously though, I have no complaints about the quality of the Linux HOWTOs available. Documentation has not even remotely bothered me. >>


An even more delicious irony happened with my co-worker who was working on an XML project. He tried to get a Java servlet to transform some XML documents into HTML using XSLT on a Linux test machine. The documentation was so poor and scattered that he refers to the XML SDK documents (from MSDN) I printed for him when he gets stuck.

Low quality documentation surely bothers me. If I get stuck or suspect any bugs, I want to be able to go to an SDK or a knowledge base and hit the search button. When I'm not familiar with a certain object model, I want to go to a library (like MSDN) and look through the hierarchy structure.

 

[CaptainGoodnight]

<< Please point out the specific HOWTOs you're referring to. >>



First of all that?s a silly argument. To the base this whole documentation argument on one specific HOWTO file is ludicrous. Sure they are good ones, I?ve read some. But they a many bad ones. This reminds of programming tutorials on BBS (or one any subject for that matter), they are for the most part inaccurate. No one proof reads the HOWTOs or checks them for mistakes.

If I was going to play your game we would have look at many HOWTOs and I?ve read more than my fair share. If I did it your way and found a lousy HOWTO, you would respond with a good one. The argument would never end. Basing the argument around one HOWTO is like saying that all Dell computer suck just because you happened to use a bad one. Or saying that I hate all (--put a nationality here--) because I meant one that was a real @ss. Nice try. Took me awhile on how I would respond.

 

[spidey07]

MAN!!

there is so much misinformation floating on this thread my boots are getting dirty.

Anybody who has worked with win2K or any other flavor of NT cannot honestly admit that it doesn't still has serious problems in terms of stability and networking. I have personally seen no less than 15 separate servers and 15 separate companies with 15 separate functions just flat out four paws in the air. mainly because of service pack2. install pack, watch your server not boot.

God, i'm gonna start ranting. I've seen posts here like &quot;well, I run it at home and it works fine for me...must be the best OS in the world&quot;. give me a break...if you're running it at home you have no load on the server. it doesn't take a genius to figure out that if only 50-100 people are hitting a server it will run fine.

My personal experience =
NT/2000 servers that are just expected to hard crash (yes...I've written operating systems and this kind of memory protection is inexcusable) a few times a year.
*nix servers (about 40 suns from 450 to 10000) and I can't remember the last time one actually went down...can't even express it in years...not even for maintenance as all hardware is hot swappable.

had to speak my mind...there are a few people talking out of their respective orfices. ms server operating systems are great, BUT only for a few niche applications.

<edit> sp

 

[Phil21]

Ameesh is just a spoiled little brat, trying to spout out &quot;facts&quot; because he can't understand that something may be better at doing a task than the stuff he knows.

The Tux benchmark here is useless in a practical setting, I don't see anyone disputing that. This was made about a year(?) back because of the redicoulous mindcraft benchmarking with just static content. IIS beat Apache because.. Guess what? IIS has many functions in the kernel, just as Tux does. So someone wrote a quick dirty hack to do the same thing on Linux, and it totally handed microsoft it's ass. No big deal, it means nothing in the real world. More because I would rather keep applications where applications belong. User space.

IIS is really just a buggy bloated piece of junk IMO. Apache can do anything IIS can do, simpler and more straightforward. IIS/ASP can of COURSE beat Apache+CGI in dynamic content, if you can't figure out why you're a moron who should not be allowed to TOUCH a webserver. Show me the same app writting in ASP on IIS, outperform Apache + mod_perl and I'll eat my words. The fact is, it's not going to happen.

Essentially, most people that like NT/IIS do so because they are lazy, and do not want to learn what's actually going on. This lends itself to poor admins, and the stupid MCSE certifications sure as heck didn't help the situation much.

Also, the fact that &quot;anyone&quot; can edit the Linux code, is actually a really good compliment. Good code is NOT obfusticated or complex, it's straightforward and easy to understand. Once again, good coders tend to hang around the *nix platforms, where the &quot;dirty hack&quot; &quot;progammers&quot; tend to write REALLY ugly stuff in ASP on NT.

All I can say is.. Attempt to remotely administer a hosting ISP that pulls 40-60mbit/sec in your spare time while running WinNT/IIS. Good f-in luck. We do, and I've had a whopping two system emergencies I've had to run to immediately in the last year and a half. We also do fairly complex things like web backends, server clustering, and other fun things Linux makes extremely easy and reliable, not to mention affordable.

So, linux+apache works for me, and keeps the food on the table. I guess that makes me a bandwagoner or something.

About all windows is better at IMO, is WINDOWS client filesharing (quickly being eclipsed by Samba) and of course a desktop/workstation OS. I use windows on the desktop, but I'll be damned if I'll ever use it as a server again.

-Phil

 

[joohang]

<< Show me the same app writting in ASP on IIS, outperform Apache + mod_perl and I'll eat my words. The fact is, it's not going to happen. >>


With or without COM?

How about an app compiled in ASP.NET?

 

[Soybomb]

<< and that guy comparing his crappy red hat box to win2K advance server is a moron. clearly he has no understanding of how powerfule advance server is. >>

That or he just knows how the power compares as the article above describes and decided to do the same job with half the computer needed.

<< As CaptainGoodnight pointed out, that was an absurd statement. Many of the &quot;HOWTO's&quot; look like they were written by someone w/ little more than a 6th grade education. I'll stick to MSDN reading articles by the likes of Pattison, Robbins, Prosise, Box, etc.. Thanks. >>

Now you need a PHD to tell you where to click or what to type? I mean the head of the company you praise so much doesn't have a college education, and whats that mean? I'm not looking for poetic prose, I just wanna know how to get the job done. If I go to www.linuxdoc.org I'm pretty much guarenteed how to find out how to do that task. Its no worse than digging around the ms knowledge base for an answer.

I still stand by the numbers that show apache owns iis, etc. If Win2k is so great, why doesn't it have a better market share? This other software surely has something more on it than a cooler name right? I won't argue that at the moment win2k is a superior desktop, but for stability and security....I'll keep my *nix/bsd and I think most smart admins agree, unless they like overtime.

 

[nd]

<< First of all that?s a silly argument. To the base this whole documentation argument on one specific HOWTO file is ludicrous. Sure they are good ones, I?ve read some. But they a many bad ones. This reminds of programming tutorials on BBS (or one any subject for that matter), they are for the most part inaccurate. No one proof reads the HOWTOs or checks them for mistakes.

If I was going to play your game we would have look at many HOWTOs and I?ve read more than my fair share. If I did it your way and found a lousy HOWTO, you would respond with a good one. The argument would never end. Basing the argument around one HOWTO is like saying that all Dell computer suck just because you happened to use a bad one. Or saying that I hate all (--put a nationality here--) because I meant one that was a real @ss. Nice try. Took me awhile on how I would respond. >>

No, it's not a argument at all. I'm just pointing out that you're lying. Still waiting for you to point out these many poorly written HOWTOs that are on a 6th grade level. I never said anything about one HOWTO.

 

[Descartes]

I can't even refute any of spidey07's statements, as I'm totally consumed by his manifestation of ignorance on the matter

Our datacenter is a hybrid of AIX, SCO, NT4, Win2k Server, ad nauseum, running every kind of configuration imagineable. We have backoffice systems (Southware mostly) integrated between SCO and NT, vice versa, and everything in between. Both platforms have their fair share of problems, and both have their good points. Both platforms give me more headaches than I need. Just use whichever platform suits the job at hand, and deal w/ it.

[edit]Cut out a bunch of pointless material [/edit]

 

[Descartes]

<< Now you need a PHD to tell you where to click or what to type? I mean the head of the company you praise so much doesn't have a college education, and whats that mean? I'm not looking for poetic prose, I just wanna know how to get the job done. If I go to www.linuxdoc.org I'm pretty much guarenteed how to find out how to do that task. Its no worse than digging around the ms knowledge base for an answer. >>



I'm not suggesting that you need any level of education to write properly, although I'm sure it helps. I'm merely saying that the quality of articles and documentation from MS-derived platforms has always exceeded my expectations, and is always, imo, more lucid than any other form of documentation I've seen on *nix.

 

<< I'm afraid you have fallen into the &quot;Linux users are just trying to be trendy and should be ignored&quot; trap. I've seen this so much the past 2 years it seems it's more trendy to go against Linux because of this. >>



AHHAh thats funny. Most people that most avidly preach for *nix have the experience of a 12yr old using it and implementing it.

*nix is great, but will be overcome someday. Microsoft just has a exponentially larger amount of resources then any other company out there.
Yes windows needs some work, but it has been getting better along the way.
And 2k is a very VERY large jump for m$. Implementing many of the features of all existing networking OSes.

If any of you have read Gates' book you would be rather impressed with his ideas and visions.
Instead of keeping the technology world small and confined to the elietest world, it should be opened up and embraced by all of humanity.

 

[nd]

<< AHHAh thats funny. Most people that most avidly preach for *nix have the experience of a 12yr old using it and implementing it. >>

This statement is just so ridiculous it doesn't even bother me.

Anything more written by you will be ignored.

 

[ElKevbo]

<< Most people that most avidly preach for *nix have the experience of a 12yr old using it and implementing it. >>



I think what you meant to say was:

&quot;Most people that avidly preach about *nix have been using it and implementing since(or before) I was 12 years old.&quot;


*nix. 31+ years and still kicking. Not too shabby for a bunch of long haired hackers, eh?


Kevin