New thread about the South and Racism

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Did the other thread get deleted? Can't find it

It's only racist when you treat a group/person differently because of the color of their skin or ethnic background. This is why I see Affirmative Action as racist

I'll bet you're white...

As a result of years of slavery, followed by segregation and discrimination, blacks are at an economic disadvantage, and whites are at an economic advantage. On top of that, racism (consciously or subconsciously) still exists among people who are responsible for hiring decisions. Those people are predominantly white. Combine those two things, and whites have an overwhelming advantage in trying to find jobs. Affirmative action merely takes away a PART of this advantage; whites still have an intrinsic advantage no matter how you look at it. So no, affirmative action is not racist.

White people who complain about affirmative action have no idea how difficult it is for black people to find good jobs.

I read in USA Today the other day that unemployment among white teens in the workforce is about 15% this year; for black teens in the workforce it is double that. Is that because whites are more deserving of the jobs? No. More likely it's because of geography (with blacks tending to live in lower-income areas). But those kids that don't have jobs now will have trouble later because of their lack of experience. White people have the advantage.

If you're a white person looking for a job, you most likely know a lot of other white people, and because they're white they're more likely to have good jobs and are more likely to be in a position to help you in your job hunt. Poor black people tend to network with other poor black people, so they have less opportunity to get a good job. Are blacks poorer than whites because they are in some way inferior to whites? No way. They're poor because they have historically faced greater obstacles than whites, and as a result they tend to have less economic mobility than whites.

Actually, I consider myself a mutt. I'm mostly white though

White people who complain about affirmative action have no idea how difficult it is for black people to find good jobs.

They are raised in an environment that promotes failure. If you succeed you are labeled an Uncle Tom or a sellout. If you fit into corporate America by adopting it's ways then you are despised by your own kind.

Poor black people tend to network with other poor black people, so they have less opportunity to get a good job.

why not associate with the successful Phil Banks(Fresh Prince plug) and use successful black entrepreuners and business men as models instead of Jay-Z, Shaquille or Iverson. They are nothing more than talented thugs

Why not emulate Bob Johnson, Stanley O'Neal, Richard Parsons, Ken Chenault, Cathy Hughes, Franklin Raines, Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, and Erving Johnson instead? They had no problem of succeeding while Black.

They got with the program, built themselves up while not allowing others to drag them back down. They did not listen to others calling them a sell out for succeeding.

The problem I see it is that young African-Americans nowadays are listening too much to their peers, rappers and everyone else telling them how it is impossible to get ahead and that the real enemy is Mr Whitey. The real enemy is not Mr Whitey, it is your friends, your family and your peers for holding you back. Their only limitation is themselves.

I would welcome anyone of any color into my company, but I will not hire them based on the pigmentation of their skin nor because I feel an obligation because a couple generations ago my family might have been slave owners and their family might have been slaves. I will hire the best man/woman because of what they can do not because I feel sorry for them. I love reading success stories about people who were born with next to nothing and have achieved greatness and respect.

If I were the principal of an innercity school I would make Colin Powell's "My American Dream" mandatory reading. Here is a kid who grew up in Brooklyn from an immigrant family. He watched everyone around him get in trouble, yet made friends with the good guys. He attended one of these inner city schools and even went to a State college. he rose to the rank of 4-star General and is now the Secretary of State and possibly the first black President should he decide to run in 2008.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I live in what qualifies as the south, and while I can't say it's any more or less racist than anywhere else, I can say there is a lot of racism here, and it's certainly not limited ot the white folks.

I live in North Florida/South Georgia, most of florida is not considered to be southern (really the north supplanted) North Florida is. I went to a private high school who prided itself on diversity (with 4 percent African American who wouldn't!) One of my buds who is black started putting up posters on his locker comparing racism in the south to anti-semitism in Nazi Germany. He even made a swastika with a confederate flag superimposed on it. While I didn't agree with most of his points, and refuted them with a friendly poster of my own on my locker, I did agree with some, and felt the need to defend his right to such a poster to those dissenters who wished to crush any anti-majority sentiment. Daily people would rip the poster down, or write "The south will rise again" on the poster, now mind you the mean income for parents at my school was well into the 6 figures, these are not uneducated people, but I really couldn't believe what I was reading. I was in a position as a senior to do pretty much what I liked and the rest of the students would at least respect it, so I made my own poster in response to the South will rise again asking when the south had ever risen, and what they planned to rise to. This of course made a lot of the good ole southern boys angry, but they couldn't refute it. On to another topic, it is ok for black guys to call some one a ni**a but it is not ok for a white guy to repeat those lyrics from rap songs, however, while it is ok, I learned for a white guy to call other white guys cracka (I did it as a sort of joking protest to this situation) I found that black people apparently think it is like wise ok to call a white guy cracka or whitey. I tried explaining the double standard one time to my friend that put up the posters and who thought that it was ok to use slang like this, but he simply shrugged it off saying that it wasn't as derogatory because white people were not enslaved. Basically the point to the convoluted post is that while racism does not exist in the same ways that it did during the civil war, it has not gone away, only changed faces. No longer to lynchings occur, but people who purport to be enlightened still harbor racist feelings, be it hatred, or just crude jokes about other races. Now I'm not one that believes in PC, and I don't go out of my way to sugar coat things for people, but I don't stoop to ignorace and racist jokes. There is still a division between the races. It isn't just in the south, and thankfully it isn't what is has been, but you have to remember, it wasn't that the north was opposed to slavery, it was that the industrial nature of their economy did not need slaves for manual labor, whereas the rural existence that was the south, did depend on hard manual labor in the fields.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Did the other thread get deleted? Can't find it

It's only racist when you treat a group/person differently because of the color of their skin or ethnic background. This is why I see Affirmative Action as racist

True, and I agree with you on affirmative action (affirmative action basically says that because they are minorities, they need a hand out to compete with the majority, which is basically saying that they are inferior, like it or not, it is true). However, racism isn't only limited to actions, it also resides in peoples thoughts, and I find myself doing this, what if you are out shooting pool late at night You walk out into the parking lot and see 5-6 black guys jokin around by their car, do you walk right in front of them to go to your car, not worried in the slightest, or do you take the next aisle over, which is just as easy? I take the other aisle over, now what if they are white? Even if they are carrying on and being obnoxious, generally I just walk right in front of them. That is the dangerous side of racism, perception. It isn't justified, but that is my gut reaction, I certainly don't treat black people differently, but little things like that, I find myself doing, and see all the time.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Alistar7
you thought he would steal something because he was black? oh my.....



one last time, sorry, pet peeve, racism and prejudice are not the same thing.

a bigot is someone who holds prejudice.

a racist is someone who uses their power or position of authority to advance their bigoted viewpoint.


They are closely related, but not the same thing. Right now who runs the major corps? Average age of a fortune 500 CEO? That generation was raised during segregation by parents who lived through even worse times for minorities. How many African Americans in the south alone are over 50 yrs. old? Think they forget the last lynching, or the fact that nobody ever was brought to justice no matter what was done to them. I'm suprised things are as good as they are honestly. Thankfully to be largely successfull today you must be intelligent, the enemy of prejudice (ignorance with a heavy dose of natural social physch learned at an early age) and the "old boys" are all leaving the scene.

You see way more cross marriages and dating today, the youth don't seem to have the issues with race as much which is even more encouraging. I still think every person born in the US should be given a breakdown of their genetic history by race. We have fairly high levels of African American geneology in us from our lovely recent past, and it's even higher in the south. Consdering man as we know it started on the continent of Africa, whether you beleive in evolution or God, we are all descendant from dark skinned people. Either that or change the gene pool so everyone comes out blue with marge simpson hair.....

You got it kind of mixed up - racism is any delineation between the races, ie you see a definite difference between black and white, to you a black person is different from a white person. You have certain views of one race, where they are more likely to be etc, like if you walk into a chicken join and expect to see 2 white people and 8 black people, this is racism, now is that harmful? No not really, it just exists. Everyone has some degree of racism, even if you think you don't because you treat black people (or white people) the same as your self, the racism lies in your thought. The biggotry is biased actions based on your racism. Like if you say all black people smell bad, or steal, that is biggotry, the racism is the fact that you make the delineation between black and whtie, the biggotry is the actualy actions upon such biases.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Dr Smooth

Originally posted by: Gonad the Barbarian
I live in what qualifies as the south, and while I can't say it's any more or less racist than anywhere else, I can say there is a lot of racism here, and it's certainly not limited ot the white folks.

The US is a racist country.

A country cannot be racist, its people can but the country cannot, assuming you meant the people of the United States are racist, this is an over generalization, now stretching and assuming that this is correct, I would venture to say that all countries are racist. No where will you find a country completely pure where they don't see a delineation between the races.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Did the other thread get deleted? Can't find it

It's only racist when you treat a group/person differently because of the color of their skin or ethnic background. This is why I see Affirmative Action as racist

True, and I agree with you on affirmative action (affirmative action basically says that because they are minorities, they need a hand out to compete with the majority, which is basically saying that they are inferior, like it or not, it is true). However, racism isn't only limited to actions, it also resides in peoples thoughts, and I find myself doing this, what if you are out shooting pool late at night You walk out into the parking lot and see 5-6 black guys jokin around by their car, do you walk right in front of them to go to your car, not worried in the slightest, or do you take the next aisle over, which is just as easy? I take the other aisle over, now what if they are white? Even if they are carrying on and being obnoxious, generally I just walk right in front of them. That is the dangerous side of racism, perception. It isn't justified, but that is my gut reaction, I certainly don't treat black people differently, but little things like that, I find myself doing, and see all the time.

It would really depend on what they were wearing and how they were behaving. If it had been 5-6 African Americans with slacks, polo shirts and no Bling Bling then I would have no problem walking by them or "God forbid" engaging them in idle conversation. If it had been a group of blacks, whites, hispanics or albinos wearing saggy pants, gold chains, behaving like thugs around a riced out 2000 dollar car with 5000 dollar rims, then yes I would take the other path

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Did the other thread get deleted? Can't find it

It's only racist when you treat a group/person differently because of the color of their skin or ethnic background. This is why I see Affirmative Action as racist

I'll bet you're white...

As a result of years of slavery, followed by segregation and discrimination, blacks are at an economic disadvantage, and whites are at an economic advantage. On top of that, racism (consciously or subconsciously) still exists among people who are responsible for hiring decisions. Those people are predominantly white. Combine those two things, and whites have an overwhelming advantage in trying to find jobs. Affirmative action merely takes away a PART of this advantage; whites still have an intrinsic advantage no matter how you look at it. So no, affirmative action is not racist.

White people who complain about affirmative action have no idea how difficult it is for black people to find good jobs.

I read in USA Today the other day that unemployment among white teens in the workforce is about 15% this year; for black teens in the workforce it is double that. Is that because whites are more deserving of the jobs? No. More likely it's because of geography (with blacks tending to live in lower-income areas). But those kids that don't have jobs now will have trouble later because of their lack of experience. White people have the advantage.

If you're a white person looking for a job, you most likely know a lot of other white people, and because they're white they're more likely to have good jobs and are more likely to be in a position to help you in your job hunt. Poor black people tend to network with other poor black people, so they have less opportunity to get a good job. Are blacks poorer than whites because they are in some way inferior to whites? No way. They're poor because they have historically faced greater obstacles than whites, and as a result they tend to have less economic mobility than whites.

Now you see, even if you are black (I would venture to say especially if you are) that statement is racist. My friend is black and his family makes well into the 6 figure range, now when we both took the psat/nmsqt I missed the cutoff for semi-finalist by 1 point, but was 13 points higher than my friend. He got an "Achievement award" because he was black. They lowered the standards for him simply because of the color of his skin. What kind of disadvantages does he have? We both play country club golf for God's sake. Now for you or anyone else to say that because they are black they are at an inherrent disadvantage is both ridiculous and abusive. If you really wanted to help the disadvantaged affirmative action wouldn't be geared towards color, it would be geared toward economic standing. Think about it for a minute, apply that to all of your points and you will see that is the clear best solution. Why should my friend get extra help? Do you think he needs the extra money? No, do you think some poor white kid living in the trailer park may need it more? Yes probably. You see that is the problem, you say that the color of his skin is his disadvantage and economic level is the qualifying criterion, however I say that economic standing is the premise, and race doesn't factor in as a qualifying criterion.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Millennium

Originally posted by: KAMAZON

LaRouche didn't do a goddamn thing for civil rights in Alabama. Secondly, you didn't have to own a car or cross a bridge. Quit spamming the forums with your LaRouche crap, especially when it is dead wrong.

I said in the early 1960s, not today buddy. Did you understand that I said LaRouches running mate, Rev. James Bevel and the VP of LaRouches organization Amelia Boynton Robinson ran the civil rights movement in Alabama.

That is like saying "I have a black friend, so I can't be racist." It doesn't work like that.

That has nothing to do with his statement. I don't agree with what he said, but keep it on topic, you were just waiting to use that against the guy.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: mugsywwiii

Originally posted by: Millennium


I don't believe this to be true. Most SMART managers and employers hire someone on qualifications, and race is not a factor.

I don't really agree. It would be nice if it were this way, but at least subconsciously a white hiring manager will probably favor a person. But like I was saying, it also has to do with their current state of poverty. They receive a sub-standard (or rather, piss-poor) public education, and have little chance of going to a good college. Some of it probably is psychological though - they see their black skin and think they have no chance to succeed, so why try?

You are saying that it is a self-perpetuating cycle that only blacks go through. I don't buy that at all. There are tons of asians, latinos, and poor whites that are just as disadvantaged, yet they somehow make it. So how is that possible? How do these latinos, asians, and whites make it, but the blacks don't? In reality they DO make it, but there is still poverty. African Americans compose around 10% of the population in the US. and much higher in the South. Chances are that they have higher unemployment than asians or hispanics, because there are more. Do you have a link to back up that claim that black teens face 30% unemployment?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/workplace/2003-06-08-teen-work_x.htm My bad, it was 37% for blacks. Note that this is teens in the workforce. IIRC, that's just people who are actually looking for jobs, right? So it's not about lack of motivation; the blacks want the jobs, they just can't find them.

Asians are the only minority group that is on par with whites economically (but still, you don't often see Asians in upper management).

I don't think we should be giving minorities handouts because we offended them or something, but we ought to be working toward a time when equal opportunity really does mean equal opportunity. Affirmative action is not about giving blacks jobs they don't deserve or aren't qualified for, but if there are two equally qualified candidates for the job, one white and one a minority, it favors the minority. In your post you alluded to the fact that a minority would have to work a lot harder to get to a level of parity with whites. I think I'd rather have a hard-working minority than a white person who had everything handed to him working for me anyway.

My main point though was that whites have an advantage in finding good jobs, and affirmative action is meant to level the playing field. Do you agree or disagree about that?

Your overgeneralizations and straw man fallacy ("they") sink your argument. You continue to say that blacks are inherrently disadvantaged, I continually show you that not all blacks are, similarly your argument against managers hiring blacks seems to state that either a) there are no black managers or b)the black managers also are "racist" (by your estimation) Now, you think that when two candidates are equal (there is no such thing, as no two people are alike, but for the sake of argument...) that the minority should get the job rather than leaving it up to chance? (flip a coin) That is racist, both against whites and blacks. Furthermore, affirmative action forces managers to feel compelled to hire minorities over whites etc even if they don't view their qualifications as equal. Why? No one wants to be hasseled, people are just trying to make a living, and a civil rights law suit is not good for business.

 

[DaiShan]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: DaiShan

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Did the other thread get deleted? Can't find it

It's only racist when you treat a group/person differently because of the color of their skin or ethnic background. This is why I see Affirmative Action as racist

True, and I agree with you on affirmative action (affirmative action basically says that because they are minorities, they need a hand out to compete with the majority, which is basically saying that they are inferior, like it or not, it is true). However, racism isn't only limited to actions, it also resides in peoples thoughts, and I find myself doing this, what if you are out shooting pool late at night You walk out into the parking lot and see 5-6 black guys jokin around by their car, do you walk right in front of them to go to your car, not worried in the slightest, or do you take the next aisle over, which is just as easy? I take the other aisle over, now what if they are white? Even if they are carrying on and being obnoxious, generally I just walk right in front of them. That is the dangerous side of racism, perception. It isn't justified, but that is my gut reaction, I certainly don't treat black people differently, but little things like that, I find myself doing, and see all the time.

It would really depend on what they were wearing and how they were behaving. If it had been 5-6 African Americans with slacks, polo shirts and no Bling Bling then I would have no problem walking by them or "God forbid" engaging them in idle conversation. If it had been a group of blacks, whites, hispanics or albinos wearing saggy pants, gold chains, behaving like thugs around a riced out 2000 dollar car with 5000 dollar rims, then yes I would take the other path

Fair enough, however assume equity in apparel among the two groups, and being that this is midnight or so outside of a pool hall assume neither group to be dressed well, lets say printed t-shirts and jeans on all of them. Also as I said before assume equity in their demeanor as well (both having a good time, neither brandishing weapons or fighting or anything like that). Now tell me what are you going to do?