New study shows U.S. Healthcare is not "superior"

[fskimospy]

You have zero examples of a system you propose so you have no proof of anything. Further you never explained how the Republicans and Democrats who have absolutely no concept of health care but do have a propensity to throw a wrench into each others plans will suddenly have the time to learn what needs to be done and hand out flowers to each other around the political campfire. Of course we could figure out what to do, but you have your noncontextual book of Genesis and one must not question.

As far as the medicare comparison you have already granted the federal government unlimited power over us however how the SCOTUS will respond to an intentional takeover remains to be seen. Truman didn't have much luck last time. All we must do is believe in our rep and dem leaders.

No, I want effort put out by those who have a clue on how to approach the most complex task on history. You don't. So be it.

Meh, your argument rests on the idea that the United States is uniquely incompetent. I see no reason to believe this. You are clearly religiously opposed to employing the type of health care system that is backed by overwhelming empirical evidence. I've shown you the facts, you are uninterested. When challenged on your own vague and unsupported assertions you simply resort to grand pronouncements on the Constitution that aren't even correct themselves. "We don't have a socialist constitution"... wtf? You can't make this stuff up.

I believe the case you are referring to is Youngstown, and that would have exactly zero to do with Medicare for all.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Used to be an apprenticeship right after HS, then two year degree, My brother only has a BS, now its forever PhamD.

They simply ratcheted up cost/barrier to entry/and limited schools to keep salaries high. Oh I know the education arguments but I'm talking result of such activities.

As far as finding other things to do. Don't be ridiculous. Medical profession is one of the most profitable there is. Why do you think there are thousands of applications for 30-40 slots?

Are you gonna cut my lawn for $50? Takes 3 hours.

One question. I' ve been in healthcare a long time. How are you better qualified to know what I need to know? The old saying applies "No one knows your job better than someone who's never done it."

 

[Zebo]

Thats what my economics professor claimed. The AMA limits the amount of people in med school to fuck with free market. There are TONS of smart people who could probably practice medicine in real life, but they will never get the chance.

Of course. There is like 2 new schools since the 1970s when poulation was much lower.

Oh and medicine has not been a free market forever. What do you call patents for a drug you need or you die?

I don't like to get on medical pros that much, least they are not leeches and are the back bone of medicine - there are tons of other people that need controls/eliminated first if we are to have affordable UHC.

 

[Zebo]

One question. I' ve been in healthcare a long time. How are you better qualified to know what I need to know? The old saying applies "No one knows your job better than someone who's never done it."

I copy what works - makes it so I don't have to work or think so hard. You should try that. WRT - UHC I'm looking at ppl paying half for more. That works and we should emulate it.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Meh, your argument rests on the idea that the United States is uniquely incompetent. I see no reason to believe this. You are clearly religiously opposed to employing the type of health care system that is backed by overwhelming empirical evidence. I've shown you the facts, you are uninterested. When challenged on your own vague and unsupported assertions you simply resort to grand pronouncements on the Constitution that aren't even correct themselves. "We don't have a socialist constitution"... wtf? You can't make this stuff up.

I believe the case you are referring to is Youngstown, . and that would have exactly zero to do with Medicare for all.

The US is different. You ignore the political reality shown over many years and appeal to magical thinking. You showed me nothing. You shown anything that demonstrates competence is guaranteed. In fact you oppose it. I ask that changes be done with expert forethought. You hate that idea. Thats your faith. It's not good enough. I don't want your religion.

 

[fskimospy]

The US is different. You ignore the political reality shown over many years and appeal to magical thinking. You showed me nothing. You shown anything that demonstrates competence is guaranteed. In fact you oppose it. I ask that changes be done with expert forethought. You hate that idea. Thats your faith. It's not good enough. I don't want your religion.

Wait, you make a blanket, utterly unsupported statement and then accuse ME of magical thinking? lol.

I see you've resorted to strawmanning others' positions to avoid admitting defeat again. That's all you have at this point, fact free grand pronouncements and impugning others' motivations when all we're trying to get you to do is accept a tried and true model that has worked enormously effectively worldwide for half a century. But hey, how's that going to make a dent in your magical thinking?

 

[Zebo]

The US is different. You ignore the political reality shown over many years and appeal to magical thinking. You showed me nothing. You shown anything that demonstrates competence is guaranteed. In fact you oppose it. I ask that changes be done with expert forethought. You hate that idea. Thats your faith. It's not good enough. I don't want your religion.

Only thing you are right about is political realities - our bought and sold politicians will not change a thing with ignorant Americans who know no better demanding nothing resembling sane medical policy of other nations they don't even know exist. Instead we get to spend more on a defective product. I said long ago in these forums Americans would find a way to fuck up UHC so it's not even worth trying and Obamacare proved that. <Maybe that's what you mean by US being different.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Wait, you make a blanket, utterly unsupported statement and then accuse ME of magical thinking? lol.

I see you've resorted to strawmanning others' positions to avoid admitting defeat again. That's all you have at this point, fact free grand pronouncements and impugning others' motivations when all we're trying to get you to do is accept a tried and true model that has worked enormously effectively worldwide for half a century. But hey, how's that going to make a dent in your magical thinking?

The basic difference is that I want to know what the options are and have that done before implementing something. You don't. I haven't seen evidence in the real world that Congress is capable of working together in the past to take on something of this magnitude. That's irrelevant to you. You know what's best without an understanding of the particulars of our situation. You oppose an examination to determine just what that might be. The only thing you've done is say how grand it works elsewhere without inkling of how to take something which has evolved elsewhere and replacing an entirely different system without screwing it up royally.

I want what's best. You want one thing and it's automatically best without question, and no I am not going to accept anything without effort being put forward first no more than I would find someone guilty or innocent in a court of law before a proper presentation of the facts.

You aren't going to get what you want and consequently we'll have nothing, not even an attempt at a rational and comprehensive analysis, which you seem to oppose vigorously.

Such is life.

 

[fskimospy]

The basic difference is that I want to know what the options are and have that done before implementing something. You don't. I haven't seen evidence in the real world that Congress is capable of working together in the past to take on something of this magnitude. That's irrelevant to you. You know what's best without an understanding of the particulars of our situation. You oppose an examination to determine just what that might be. The only thing you've done is say how grand it works elsewhere without inkling of how to take something which has evolved elsewhere and replacing an entirely different system without screwing it up royally.

I want what's best. You want one thing and it's automatically best without question, and no I am not going to accept anything without effort being put forward first no more than I would find someone guilty or innocent in a court of law before a proper presentation of the facts.

You aren't going to get what you want and consequently we'll have nothing, not even an attempt at a rational and comprehensive analysis, which you seem to oppose vigorously.

Such is life.

Nope, we've had this discussion before. You are unwilling to accept the incontestable reality that rational and comprehensive analysis has been going on for decades now. Instead, you wish for some magical and new Hayabusa Rider Approved Analysis. It's a tried and true trick to avoid dealing with a problem when the solution is something you don't like.

In this post as in most of your others, you have once again resorted to strawmen and fact free proclamations because you can't actually argue on the merits. There's no more point to this and I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone religiously opposed to accepting empirical evidence on this matter.

I simply entered this conversation to show people that your question about Japan's tort system was misleading and not factually supportable. This is a pretty common issue when it comes to you and health care, but you aren't able to look at this issue rationally unfortunately. My best wishes that you come around someday.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Only thing you are right about is political realities - our bought and sold politicians will not change a thing with ignorant Americans who know no better demanding nothing resembling sane medical policy of other nations they don't even know exist. Instead we get to spend more on a defective product. I said long ago in these forums Americans would find a way to fuck up UHC so it's not even worth trying and Obamacare proved that. <Maybe that's what you mean by US being different.

Picture Bohner and Pelosi sitting by the fire and talking intelligently and in an extremely informed manner with no political considerations at all but best wishes for socialized medicine. When you can do that with a straight face let me know.

That's why things have to be analyzed by a lot of people who are familiar with health care and the economics of it and Constitutional law, and yes that can include people from France or Japan or whatever. Get health care advocates, people who run and deal with both government and private insurance on a daily basis for input. Submit it to the public and Congress at the same time with ways to legislate to minimize the laws of unintended consequences. What part should government play? What of the private sector? How much will things cost? What rationing will have to be applied? Who decides that, practitioners or special interests? How do we move forward with the fewest bumps? How do we institute reforms if needed? Who makes the ultimate decisions, government or professionals?

Why are people so against knowing these things before a 10k+ bill that no one understands the consequences of in an attempt to take control?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Nope, we've had this discussion before. You are unwilling to accept the incontestable reality that rational and comprehensive analysis has been going on for decades now. Instead, you wish for some magical and new Hayabusa Rider Approved Analysis. It's a tried and true trick to avoid dealing with a problem when the solution is something you don't like.

In this post as in most of your others, you have once again resorted to strawmen and fact free proclamations because you can't actually argue on the merits. There's no more point to this and I have no interest in continuing a discussion with someone religiously opposed to accepting empirical evidence on this matter.

I simply entered this conversation to show people that your question about Japan's tort system was misleading and not factually supportable. This is a pretty common issue when it comes to you and health care, but you aren't able to look at this issue rationally unfortunately. My best wishes that you come around someday.

You have yet to explain how the Republicans and Democrats will come together to do this without political considerations overwhelming the attempt.

 

[Sunburn74]

Sorry to resuscitate this thread. I've been away for a few days and generally post in topics I am somewhat knowledgeable about.

Concerning healthcare, its very weird and studies like this are extremely difficult to intepret. I will make a few points about what I've perceived goes on in healthcare that most people are unaware of

1) Doctors are really really good with medicine. Certainly there are occasional mistakes that make the papers, difficult cases that are tough to solve, and so on, but when you consider overall the millions of cases doctors deal with, they generally get to the bottom of it and offer some sort of treatment that actually helps the patient.
2) Doctors are trained not to consider costs. This is slowly changing, but for the most part doctors first try to get the information they need to treat their patient properly and think about cost second. There is some degree of over reliance on testing for information that just is marginally helpful, but for the most part since most tests have adverse effects and downsides (fall positives/false negatives from lab tests, bleeding and organ punctures from biopsies, radiation from scans and renal failure from contrasts dyes used in scans, etc), docs are pretty good about making sure each test is generally worthwhile.
3) Both the healthy and the sick need to see doctors, and in this economic climate probably the healthy need to see doctors more.
4) 80 percent of the healthcare dollars spent on a person and by a person will be spent in the last 6 months of their life. Critical care in this country, for many reasons, allows for massive amounts of money to be spent on essentially futile cases. A week in the ICU can easily wrack up a bill of 500K USD on a patient with a <10 percent survival chance.
5) Hospitals cannot discharge patients to unsafe places and must arrange for follow up of some sort. If there is no one to take them or followup cannot be arranged, the patients sit in expensive hospital beds ($2000 to $10000k a day is the cost of just lying in a hospital bed without any IVs, meds, etc etc) for very very long periods of time. Social issues are a very large reason why costs at discharge are high, simply because a lot of patients who come into hospitals are uninsured and have unstable social backgrounds, and cannot be sent home until certain social issues have been taken care of (usually by social workers finding assisted living, subsidized health insurance, etc etc).
6) For much of what people actually need, doctors cannot prescribe (ie exercise, smoking cessation, drug cessation, dietary changes, etc). A paper was recently released saying that that for the management of heart disease, if a person were to simply quit smoking, they would achieve the equivalent benefits of all the best medical management a doctor can offer combined (ie quitting smoking = the effect of statins, ace inhibitors, beta blockers, aspirin, and nitrates combined).

Again, these are just observations. Take from them what you will. My general feeling is if you want to control the rising costs of healthcare, start rationing healthcare and making people take more accountability for their health.