New study, more guns = LESS safe

[Thebobo]

Here's how I saw the thread:

Bradly Manning posts thread because he is afraid of guns
.....

This thread was and is still pointless. There are no new facts to argue and the old facts haven't changed.

Rudeguy posts thread because he is afraid other peoples post about guns
He points out that the article linked to meant nothing, because the study wasn't released and he is afraid for his guns
Some people came in defending the study, even though it hasn't been released and rudeguy didn't like it.
He suggested this thread was more about pudding than fact because he is scared for his guns
When we tried to point this fact out, those people defended defending the study
Then it all went downhill and we were all arguing because RG cant stop posting
Then you took one of the people trying to point out how stupid being scared of whatifers you were.

This thread was and is still pointless because he don't like it. There are no new facts to argue and the old facts haven't changed thats like 99% of P&N but that never stops RG from posting.

Just saying..

 

[rudeguy]

Rudeguy posts thread because he is afraid other peoples post about guns
He points out that the article linked to meant nothing, because the study wasn't released and he is afraid for his guns
Some people came in defending the study, even though it hasn't been released and rudeguy didn't like it.
He suggested this thread was more about pudding than fact because he is scared for his guns
When we tried to point this fact out, those people defended defending the study
Then it all went downhill and we were all arguing because RG cant stop posting
Then you took one of the people trying to point out how stupid being scared of whatifers you were.

This thread was and is still pointless because he don't like it. There are no new facts to argue and the old facts haven't changed thats like 99% of P&N but that never stops RG from posting.

Just saying..

That's why I pointed out that its how I saw it. Everyone has their own perception. The difference is that my perception is correct

 

[Incorruptible]

Gun control doesn't work and these idiots should be ashamed of themselves for wanting to violate the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Venix]

No it doesn't. Gah. You need to read the paper before you make a claim like this. Pudding!

The author said that homicide rates now are higher now than they were before the law was passed. That is not true. The study cannot alter reality to make that true.

It is possible that today's homicide rates would be even lower had the law not passed. But that's not the claim the author made.

 

[Daverino]

The author said that homicide rates now are higher now than they were before the law was passed. That is not true. The study cannot alter reality to make that true.

It is possible that today's homicide rates would be even lower had the law not passed. But that's not the claim the author made.

I would like you to post exactly what the paper's author said and then tell me exactly what data you're using. Then tell me if you can spot the flaw in your reasoning.

 

[Venix]

I would like you to post exactly what the paper's author said and then tell me exactly what data you're using. Then tell me if you can spot the flaw in your reasoning.

The exact quote and the data have been posted multiple times in this thread.

I have no interest in playing games. If you believe that there's a flaw in my reasoning, just explain it.

 

[l33tFuzzyLogic]

America doesn't have a Gun Problem. It has a Gang Problem.

If there wasn't a gun, they'd kill with a knife. If there were no knives, they'd use crow bars. If there were no crow bars, construction workers would be pissed...

 

[OCGuy]

lol UK

 

[Daverino]

The exact quote and the data have been posted multiple times in this thread.

I have no interest in playing games. If you believe that there's a flaw in my reasoning, just explain it.

The quote from the author was:
"Coincident exactly with the policy change, there was an immediate upward trajectory to the homicide rates in Missouri . . . That upward trajectory did not happen with homicides that did not involve guns; it did not occur to any neighbouring state; the national trend was doing the opposite – it was trending downward; and it was not specific to one or two localities – it was, for the most part, state-wide."

He is talking about gun related homicides.

The data seeming to be in contradiction is here: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mocrimn.htm This data makes no distinction between gun related homicides and non-gun related homicides.

The data shows that the overall homicide rate in Missouri stayed the same after the repeal. Let us assume that the rate of non-gun related homicides decreased in Missouri at the same rate as homicides decreased across the country. If that assumption were true, could an increase in gun related homicides explain the stability of the overall rate? Maybe.

I am in no way stating that is what is in the study. As I've said, I haven't read it. But it is plausible to say that an increase in gun related homicides co-occurring with a decrease in non-gun related homicides would be simultaneously coherent with the data posted AND the author's statement. And if its at least plausible then I think we should wait and read the paper before concluding that it is untrue.

 

[ivwshane]

Where in my post did I mention Obama much less blame him for anything?

It's a fact the economic downturn began at the same time the law changed. How many murders occurred due to people not having a job vs the law change?

You missed my point...it's ok...this thread is stupid anyways

 

[Incorruptible]

America doesn't have a Gun Problem. It has a Gang Problem.

If there wasn't a gun, they'd kill with a knife. If there were no knives, they'd use crow bars. If there were no crow bars, construction workers would be pissed...

Don't tell that to the moronic leftists, It's always blaming the guns.

 

[D-Man]

Doppel, you idiot, the topic of this thread is the relationship or lack thereof between guns and violence in a society. It's not how I feel about my Mother. You find my point of view offensive because you have the kind of mentality that I describe as the real source of violence in society, the relationship that I see between the punitive mentality and the nurturing mentality characteristic of conservatives and liberals respectively, a mentality I characterize as the punishing father and the nurturing mother. These are symbolic terms understandable by really even ordinary minds. I am sorry that I went over your head in my description, but please don't fuck over other people's threads by you petty, vindictive attacks on me. Try once in a while, even though it may tax you greatly, to focus on the ideas I present giving some reasonably thought out alternative if you disagree with them. Try to rise above the level of a shit throwing ape. Thank you.

I'm gonna go with Doppel on this one. I am so sick of hearing your conservative bullcrap I would like to put a muzzle on your stupidity. BTW there is no alternative thoughts to many of your comments. How would you like to see 399 Posts start with If I was as looney as Moonbeam. Get a grip pal

 

[Newell Steamer]

I WISH I could own a gun. But, in NYC, it's like asking for a boiled human baby sandwich.

And, I see nothing wrong with being armed (concealed or showing). But, there will be accidents.

Or rather, an increase in suicides; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/14/guns-suicide_n_3240065.html

Yeah, that's right.... gun violence in the US seems to be mostly self inflicted. If the crazies want to turn the lead on themselves, let them have at it.

None of this roaming gangs of teens shooting up random innocent white people, or crazy white people gunning down school children.

Both sides should look at the data before cooking up their worst fears into something they are clearly NOT. Enough already.

 

[ivwshane]

I WISH I could own a gun. But, in NYC, it's like asking for a boiled human baby sandwich.

And, I see nothing wrong with being armed (concealed or showing). But, there will be accidents.

Or rather, an increase in suicides; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/14/guns-suicide_n_3240065.html

Yeah, that's right.... gun violence in the US seems to be mostly self inflicted. If the crazies want to turn the lead on themselves, let them have at it.

None of this roaming gangs of teens shooting up random innocent white people, or crazy white people gunning down school children.

Both sides should look at the data before cooking up their worst fears into something they are clearly NOT. Enough already.

The problem with ignoring people that want to use guns for suicide is that they can and have taken out their problems on other people. They not only have no regard for their own life but they have no regard for other lives as well.

 

[Venix]

The quote from the author was:
"Coincident exactly with the policy change, there was an immediate upward trajectory to the homicide rates in Missouri . . . That upward trajectory did not happen with homicides that did not involve guns; it did not occur to any neighbouring state; the national trend was doing the opposite – it was trending downward; and it was not specific to one or two localities – it was, for the most part, state-wide."

He is talking about gun related homicides.

The data seeming to be in contradiction is here: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/mocrimn.htm This data makes no distinction between gun related homicides and non-gun related homicides.

The data shows that the overall homicide rate in Missouri stayed the same after the repeal. Let us assume that the rate of non-gun related homicides decreased in Missouri at the same rate as homicides decreased across the country. If that assumption were true, could an increase in gun related homicides explain the stability of the overall rate? Maybe.

I am in no way stating that is what is in the study. As I've said, I haven't read it. But it is plausible to say that an increase in gun related homicides co-occurring with a decrease in non-gun related homicides would be simultaneously coherent with the data posted AND the author's statement. And if its at least plausible then I think we should wait and read the paper before concluding that it is untrue.

That explains the disconnect. The latter part of the quote wasn't in the article I copied it from, and taken alone it clearly reads like he's talking about the overall homicide rate. Poor research on my part.

Indeed, to disprove his claim we would need to analyze the rate of firearm homicides alone. Since that data doesn't appear to be readily available, I agree that we will need to wait for the paper to be released.

However, I do find it suspicious that an alleged increase in firearm homicides was matched with an identical decrease in other homicides. That seems to suggest that the same murders would have occurred in either case, just with a different murder weapon. But that's speculation without seeing all the available data.

 

[Newell Steamer]

The problem with ignoring people that want to use guns for suicide is that they can and have taken out their problems on other people. They not only have no regard for their own life but they have no regard for other lives as well.

No different than driving into a group of people with a car.

Or, landing on someone when jumping off of a building.

Or, murdering your children before you commit suicide.

Guns are not the issue - the suicidial are the issue.

 

[rudder]

My state has concealed carry and open carry laws. I would be surprised if I ever hear of someone playing the knockout game around here.

 

[rudeguy]

I WISH I could own a gun. But, in NYC, it's like asking for a boiled human baby sandwich.

And, I see nothing wrong with being armed (concealed or showing). But, there will be accidents.

Or rather, an increase in suicides; http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/14/guns-suicide_n_3240065.html

Yeah, that's right.... gun violence in the US seems to be mostly self inflicted. If the crazies want to turn the lead on themselves, let them have at it.

None of this roaming gangs of teens shooting up random innocent white people, or crazy white people gunning down school children.

Both sides should look at the data before cooking up their worst fears into something they are clearly NOT. Enough already.

I think Cali just helped you guys out a ton. All you need is a couple of pissed off lawyers and I bet your unconstitutional laws will get repealed.

 

[Daverino]

My state has concealed carry and open carry laws. I would be surprised if I ever hear of someone playing the knockout game around here.

You sure about that?

 

[Thebobo]

My state has concealed carry and open carry laws. I would be surprised if I ever hear of someone playing the knockout game around here.

http://www.wmctv.com/story/24027638/police-warn-of-knockout-game-injuries-crimes

A crime phenomenon called the Knockout Game has injured people across the country, including Memphis

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You sure about that?

Guess he doesn't live in the problem areas.

From your link.

To be fair, Tennessee's violent streak is concentrated in some of the major metropolitan areas. Memphis's violent crime rate was the nation's fifth worst, while Nashville's was the 18th worst.

How much do you want to bet that most of Missouri's violent crime is concentrated in areas of St Louis and Kansas City.

 

[OCGuy]

Obligatory:

 

[Daverino]

Guess he doesn't live in the problem areas.

From your link.

How much do you want to bet that most of Missouri's violent crime is concentrated in areas of St Louis and Kansas City.

Probably. That's common sense.

But Pauline Kael couldn't believe Nixon won either. It's what happens when we limit our definition of reality to the little slice we can observe.

 

[ivwshane]

No different than driving into a group of people with a car.

Or, landing on someone when jumping off of a building.

Or, murdering your children before you commit suicide.

Guns are not the issue - the suicidial are the issue.

That wasn't my point. My point was we can't let people "have at it" because they can harm others. Otherwise I'd be perfectly fine with people killing themselves with guns

 

[rudder]

http://www.wmctv.com/story/24027638/police-warn-of-knockout-game-injuries-crimes

You sure about that?

Memphis.... A democratic stronghold whose population keeps voting in the most corrupt turds. The existence if Memphis skews crime statistics across the state.

I am more familiar with Nashville (another Dem stronghold) where 99% of the violent crime is drug/gang related.

Aside from the bad neighborhoods in these two cities I feel pretty safe here despite the large number of firearms.