New Russian Jetliner Disappears On Promo Flight

[Perknose]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/world/asia/russian-aircraft-vanishes-from-radar-during-promotional-flight.html

The demonstration airplane for a Russian-made passenger jet — the first new model to be produced in Russia since the Soviet Union collapsed — vanished on Wednesday during a 50-minute flight, in a crushing blow to a national aerospace industry eager for revival.

A Sukhoi Superjet 100 taking part in the 48th Paris Air Show on June 17, 2009. A Russian Sukhoi plane with 50 people on board went missing over Indonesia on Wednesday.

The plane departed from Halim Perdanakusuma Airport in Jakarta, and was to land there, but vanished from radar screens and lost contact with ground controllers.

The Sukhoi Superjet 100 took off from Jakarta, Indonesia, carrying 50 people, including crew, journalists and airline representatives. It disappeared from radar screens and lost contact with ground controllers about 20 minutes later over the mountainous terrain of West Java, where thick fog prevented search parties from locating the plane on Wednesday.

The Superjet carried much of this country’s hope for reinvigorating an industry with a storied history of accomplishment. Its loss will deepen the malaise in an industry whose safety problems, breakdowns and lethal crashes have made it difficult to sell planes outside the former Soviet Union, Iran, Cuba and parts of Africa.

The must have been Russian around and forgot to Putin critical safety equipment. This makes for a terrible President.

 

[dmcowen674]

Sad

Looks like it flew right into a mountain.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I blame Israel.

 

[davmat787]

On an aviation website I read that the pilot requested to descend to 6000 ft, and the ATC granted it, or the pilots thought it was granted. The problem is, the mountains the plane was last flying over are about 7500 feet. Shortly after, all communication was lost.

No idea if this is true or not, but if it is, many things went wrong as is normal for an airliner disaster. Info is from an Indonesian fellow close to the scene.

 

[werepossum]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/world/asia/russian-aircraft-vanishes-from-radar-during-promotional-flight.html



The must have been Russian around and forgot to Putin critical safety equipment. This makes for a terrible President.

Ooh, that's bad.

On an aviation website I read that the pilot requested to descend to 6000 ft, and the ATC granted it, or the pilots thought it was granted. The problem is, the mountains the plane was last flying over are about 7500 feet. Shortly after, all communication was lost.

No idea if this is true or not, but if it is, many things went wrong as is normal for an airliner disaster. Info is from an Indonesian fellow close to the scene.

Ouch! You'd think that a brand new plane would have automatic disaster avoidance systems to stop that.

 

[Craig234]

Sorry I am not up for a joke about it. Very sad.

 

[davmat787]

Ouch! You'd think that a brand new plane would have automatic disaster avoidance systems to stop that.

Yes, it should have a terrain avoidance system. I am not sure how far along this aircraft is in the certification process, but it is possible it was still in the pre-certified / experimental stage and thus a terrain avoidance system not required. Or it was ignored or simply did not work. Who knows at this point, but the locals at the airport are fairly certain it crashed into Mt. Salak.

If the fault ends up being with the aircraft itself, this incident could set back the already beleaguered Russian civilian aviation industry 10 - 20 years. This project was the first since the collapse of the USSR, and was not attracting any interest in the west. IIRC, they were not going to certify with the FAA even. This project was going to lay the foundation for the future of a respected world class civilian aviation industry, starting in the Russian and emerging markets.

Also, a release from Sukhoi:

 

[UberNeuman]

Anyone know where Clint Eastwood is right now?

 

[CallMeJoe]

Ouch! You'd think that a brand new plane would have automatic disaster avoidance systems to stop that.

You can't get an aircraft over 12600 lbs certified in ICAO nations now without TAWS or EGPWS. There's no way the Russians build an airliner without terrain warning as standard equipment.

 

[davmat787]

You can't get an aircraft over 12600 lbs certified in ICAO nations now without TAWS or EGPWS. There's no way the Russians build an airliner without terrain warning as standard equipment.

Do you know how far along this Sukhoi was in the certification process?

 

[CallMeJoe]

Do you know how far along this Sukhoi was in the certification process?

If the wiki article is correct:

The Sukhoi Superjet 100 (Russian: Сухой Суперджет 100) is a modern, fly-by-wire regional jet in the 75- to 95-seat category. With development starting in 2000, the airliner was designed by the civil aircraft division of the Russian aerospace company Sukhoi in co-operation with Western partners. Its maiden flight was conducted on 19 May 2008 and the aircraft was certified by the Interstate Aviation Committee in January 2011 and by the European Aviation Safety Agency in February 2012. On 21 April 2011, the Superjet 100 performed its first commercial passenger flight, on the Armavia route from Yerevan to Moscow.

 

[werepossum]

Yes, it should have a terrain avoidance system. I am not sure how far along this aircraft is in the certification process, but it is possible it was still in the pre-certified / experimental stage and thus a terrain avoidance system not required. Or it was ignored or simply did not work. Who knows at this point, but the locals at the airport are fairly certain it crashed into Mt. Salak.

If the fault ends up being with the aircraft itself, this incident could set back the already beleaguered Russian civilian aviation industry 10 - 20 years. This project was the first since the collapse of the USSR, and was not attracting any interest in the west. IIRC, they were not going to certify with the FAA even. This project was going to lay the foundation for the future of a respected world class civilian aviation industry, starting in the Russian and emerging markets.

Also, a release from Sukhoi:

You can't get an aircraft over 12600 lbs certified in ICAO nations now without TAWS or EGPWS. There's no way the Russians build an airliner without terrain warning as standard equipment.

So Russia being an ICAO council member, there are several possibilities. Perhaps it would have eventually had a terrain avoidance system, but as yet did not. I thought certification flights preceded demonstration flights, but I may have that backwards - though I wouldn't have thought you could fly fifty people before certification. Perhaps its terrain avoidance system is passive only, giving a warning that was not heeded (perhaps because of another pressing problem), or was badly designed and did not give warning sufficiently ahead of impact to successfully take action to avoid impact. Or worse, the terrain avoidance system is active and took action that resulted in loss of control and/or stability. Or something entirely unrelated caused the crash. As Davmat says, it's rarely a single failure or factor that causes commercial crashes, so it might take awhile to know.

 

[CallMeJoe]

So Russia being an ICAO council member, there are several possibilities. Perhaps it would have eventually had a terrain avoidance system, but as yet did not. I thought certification flights preceded demonstration flights, but I may have that backwards - though I wouldn't have thought you could fly fifty people before certification. Perhaps its terrain avoidance system is passive only, giving a warning that was not heeded (perhaps because of another pressing problem), or was badly designed and did not give warning sufficiently ahead of impact to successfully take action to avoid impact. Or worse, the terrain avoidance system is active and took action that resulted in loss of control and/or stability. Or something entirely unrelated caused the crash. As Davmat says, it's rarely a single failure or factor that causes commercial crashes, so it might take awhile to know.

TAWS and EGPWS are warning and alert systems, not flight control systems. They can be (and have been) ignored by pilots, and terrain callouts can be inhibited by the flight crew.

As noted in my previous post, if the wiki page is accurate, the Sukhoi 100 has been certified, I haven't researched beyond that superficial google.


edit: A TAWS or EGPWS system would be supplied by an avionics manufacturer, not the aircraft manufacturer. Any commercially available terrain system is designed to provide warning well in advance of disaster.

 

[werepossum]

TAWS and EGPWS are warning and alert systems, not flight control systems. They can be (and have been) ignored by pilots, and terrain callouts can be inhibited by the flight crew.

As noted in my previous post, if the wiki page is accurate, the Sukhoi 100 has been certified, I haven't researched beyond that superficial google.


edit: A TAWS or EGPWS system would be supplied by an avionics manufacturer, not the aircraft manufacturer. Any commercially available terrain system is designed to provide warning well in advance of disaster.

I would have thought a modern plane just coming on line would have an active terrain avoidance system that would climb to avoid collision. Perhaps that's considered more dangerous than a passive system? Or too expensive for a regional jet?

Here's the terrain avoidance system used on the Sukhoi Superjet 100. It's the Thales T2CAS system, a second generation passive system that supposedly takes into account the aircraft's actual performance at the existing conditions to generate warning tones in sufficient time to avoid collision but without generating nuisance tones.
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Portfolio/Aerospace/Aerospace_Product_T²CAS/?pid=1568

EDIT: I should clarify that the T2CAS system uses the aircraft's calculated instantaneous climbing capability, based on conditions, load, and any malfunctions, not based on the aircraft's performance curve figures.

 

[CallMeJoe]

I would have thought a modern plane just coming on line would have an active terrain avoidance system that would climb to avoid collision. Perhaps that's considered more dangerous than a passive system? Or too expensive for a regional jet?

The active part of the system is called a "pilot". There are two of them assigned to the controls of every airliner.

 

[werepossum]

The active part of the system is called a "pilot". There are two of them assigned to the controls of every airliner.

And the number one cause of aircraft loss is malfunction of one or both of these units. hence my statement.

Any plane with an autopilot has the potential for an active system that will climb and/or bank to avoid a collision.

 

[gevorg]

Too early to tell what happened and why. A handful of Superjets are already operational for about a year with thousands of flight hours.

 

[CallMeJoe]

And the number one cause of aircraft loss is malfunction of one or both of these units. hence my statement.

Any plane with an autopilot has the potential for an active system that will climb and/or bank to avoid a collision.

That type of system would be relatively simple to implement on a fly-by-wire design such as the Sukhoi, but the designers (and certification agencies) are inclined to trust the pilot to take action in a crisis.

 

[werepossum]

That type of system would be relatively simple to implement on a fly-by-wire design such as the Sukhoi, but the designers (and certification agencies) are inclined to trust the pilot to take action in a crisis.

That might be smartest anyway. I can imagine a situation where an active system gets false information can causes a crash. Still, if it worked right it would certainly be a good thing.

 

[davmat787]

Too early to tell what happened and why. A handful of Superjets are already operational for about a year with thousands of flight hours.

Wow, did not realize some were in service by now, been out of the biz too long I guess. Nice looking little regional jet.

 

[senseamp]

Sad situation.

 

[davmat787]

Sad situation.

Indeed. Airline accidents always gain a lot of attention, but they are nothing compared to how many are killed on the roads and highways everyday. Just sayin...

This guy (link below) is part of the team travelling with the SuperJet, he just happened to stay on the ground for the fatal flight to photograph it instead.

http://sergeydolya.livejournal.com/

 

[davmat787]

SAR crews have found the crash site, see photo below. It looks like the aircraft hit a very steep face of a mountain, virtually disintegrating on impact. If they were flying in clouds and the terrain avoidance systems did not warn them, perhaps they never knew what was going to happen. Or they gained visual of the mountain side a split second or two before they hit. Pure conjecture, still way too early to know anything for sure.

 

[Lemon law]

Sorry I am not up for a joke about it. Very sad.

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I have to agree with Craig here, very sad, and we will learn the lessons here.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

What a sad situation. This really isn't a joking matter IMO.