New Racetrack near me, non-ethonal gas!

[Elganja]

I <3 my $1.99/gal E85.

lucky

 

[Ferzerp]

Actually, from everything I've read, the ethanol tends to make the fuel mixture run a bit hotter since it runs leaner.....ethanol is an oxygenate.

And you don't get more volume of liquid sent through the engine when you're using ethanol blended fuel compared to using a "pure" gasoline. Where do you get that? The amt. of fuel delivered is the same whether ethanol laced or not.

Take a look at this:

http://www.ewg.org/research/ethanol...ay-cause-human-health-risks-and-engine-issues


This is from 8 years ago, an eternity in technology advancement.


If you look, 57% of the tested models here were accounting for ethanol content even in open loop operation (at WOT) creating a lower temperature (by a tiny amount because e10 is not a lot different than e0). Anything managing open loop maps taking in to account long term fuel trim should handle it in both open and closed loop operation. You don't need any special sensor. The oxygen sensors are sufficient to handle the measurements needed to determine the fueling amount.

Older stuff that doesn't understand will run hot. Newer stuff will run cooler. e10 doesn't create much of an effect, but e85 runs substantially cooler. Non e85 cars don't, without tuning, have the maps to handle that much ethanol though.

 

[BUTCH1]

Outside of an E85/flex fuel-type engine management system, what engines come with ethanol sensors? Have never seen one. Not on any of the vehicles we've owned lately, like our GX 470, my Silverado, Murano, nothing......

Granted, vehicles run rich in closed loop, but that's not because of ethanol at all.

Vehicles should not run richer in closed loop, the opposite is true. When the O2 sensors are cold and the intake manifold is cold the fuel will not atomize well so the PCM is set for a richer mix (longer injector pulse-width) until the vehicle is warm enough then the switch to closed-loop will lean out the mix as much as possible.

 

[Meghan54]

Take a look at this:

http://www.ewg.org/research/ethanol...ay-cause-human-health-risks-and-engine-issues


This is from 8 years ago, an eternity in technology advancement.


If you look, 57% of the tested models here were accounting for ethanol content even in open loop operation (at WOT) creating a lower temperature (by a tiny amount because e10 is not a lot different than e0). Anything managing open loop maps taking in to account long term fuel trim should handle it in both open and closed loop operation. You don't need any special sensor. The oxygen sensors are sufficient to handle the measurements needed to determine the fueling amount.

Older stuff that doesn't understand will run hot. Newer stuff will run cooler. e10 doesn't create much of an effect, but e85 runs substantially cooler. Non e85 cars don't, without tuning, have the maps to handle that much ethanol though.

The cars that coped were adjusting for lean operating conditions, not ethanol levels, which is my point. True, increased ethanol concentrations do lead to increasingly lean running conditions, but so do other conditions that can exist in a running engine.

And Butch, sorry about my continued confusing open and closed loop. I hate that about myself....mixing the terms for the situation.


But in all this, given our country's use of ethanol as fuel in vehicles over the last century, I'm honestly surprised the amount of perceived problems with ethanol. It's not like this is a new substance or anything. Ethanol was pushed as the fuel for vehicles since Ford first made the Model T.

I hate ethanol being made from corn but it's here and probably going to stay. Just have to learn how to cope, like putting stabilizers in the gas used for small engine power equipment (mowers, trimmers, etc.) and don't buy from stations that don't turn their gas over quickly.

 

[Ferzerp]

The cars that coped were adjusting for lean operating conditions, not ethanol levels, which is my point.

My claim was that adding ethanol makes a modern car run cooler, not hotter. You disagreed saying that it makes the mixture leaner, and so hotter. I said that a modern vehicle compensates and therefore runs slightly cooler on e10 over e0 due to the increased fueling, and I presented a study.

 

[BUTCH1]

Take a look at this:

http://www.ewg.org/research/ethanol...ay-cause-human-health-risks-and-engine-issues


This is from 8 years ago, an eternity in technology advancement.


If you look, 57% of the tested models here were accounting for ethanol content even in open loop operation (at WOT) creating a lower temperature (by a tiny amount because e10 is not a lot different than e0). Anything managing open loop maps taking in to account long term fuel trim should handle it in both open and closed loop operation. You don't need any special sensor. The oxygen sensors are sufficient to handle the measurements needed to determine the fueling amount.

Older stuff that doesn't understand will run hot. Newer stuff will run cooler. e10 doesn't create much of an effect, but e85 runs substantially cooler. Non e85 cars don't, without tuning, have the maps to handle that much ethanol though.

Wow, VERY interesting link, here's a bit that made me angry when I read it,

"The DOE research has not yet addressed the lifetime effect of ethanol fuels on vehicle performance and emissions, leaving a data gap that must be addressed to know the extent to which ethanol blends are incompatible with the current vehicle fleet."

Huh? how the fuck can this situation be?, with vehicles as expansive as they are these days this is saying that the long-term effects on emission-control systems is an unknown. That has now convinced me to return to Racetrack and take the $.40 price hit and run E0 from now on.

 

[tracerbullet]

... a modern vehicle compensates and therefore runs slightly cooler on e10 over e0 due to the increased fueling...

FWIW this is my understanding as well, and why all the guys looking for big hp (i.e. EVO owners) run E85.

 

[jlee]

Wow, VERY interesting link, here's a bit that made me angry when I read it,

"The DOE research has not yet addressed the lifetime effect of ethanol fuels on vehicle performance and emissions, leaving a data gap that must be addressed to know the extent to which ethanol blends are incompatible with the current vehicle fleet."

Huh? how the fuck can this situation be?, with vehicles as expansive as they are these days this is saying that the long-term effects on emission-control systems is an unknown. That has now convinced me to return to Racetrack and take the $.40 price hit and run E0 from now on.

My Tacoma made it to ~283k miles before I sold it (and it still runs perfectly - owned by a friend 5 minutes away). I replaced what appeared to be the OEM fuel pump around 280k. Are you planning on keeping your vehicle to 500k+ or something? Other than motorcycle fuel tanks, I haven't heard of any modern vehicles having problems running E10.

FWIW this is my understanding as well, and why all the guys looking for big hp (i.e. EVO owners) run E85.

Not exactly - it's much higher octane than pump gas and allows far higher amounts of boost.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/E85 Basics.html

 

[nerp]

I filled up the hybrid yesterday. Paid $3.27/gallon for Shell regular unleaded.

Wow. It's only $2.30 here for the same. I know prices are higher in your area, but damn. I would want a hybrid if I had to pay that rate, too.

 

[BUTCH1]

My Tacoma made it to ~283k miles before I sold it (and it still runs perfectly - owned by a friend 5 minutes away). I replaced what appeared to be the OEM fuel pump around 280k. Are you planning on keeping your vehicle to 500k+ or something? Other than motorcycle fuel tanks, I haven't heard of any modern vehicles having problems running E10.



Not exactly - it's much higher octane than pump gas and allows far higher amounts of boost.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/E85 Basics.html

I'll probably be just fine, my car's an '05 so it can handle E10 without issue, it just pissed me off to find out that the proper research was not done prior to introducing ethanol in to fuel.

 

[tracerbullet]

Not exactly - it's much higher octane than pump gas and allows far higher amounts of boost.

That too. Let's say it's both then, with the additional fuel and lower temps a factor as well as the octane boost.

 

[BUTCH1]

Wow. It's only $2.30 here for the same. I know prices are higher in your area, but damn. I would want a hybrid if I had to pay that rate, too.

I still think the Volt was a good idea as it's 35 mile range would get the majority of people to and from work without any need for the gas engine to kick in, too bad it was priced @35K which can buy a lot of very nice cars.

 

[BUTCH1]

Still running the non-ethanol, car idles much better, no "walk" at all and it feels peppier in everyday driving as well.

 

[SSSnail]

Wow. It's only $2.30 here for the same. I know prices are higher in your area, but damn. I would want a hybrid if I had to pay that rate, too.

He's lucky, it's almost 4 bucks here, but I have to do premium so that's over $4/gal.

You guys don't remember that time when all the fuel pumps on BMWs failed because of corn? Good time, good time.

 

[BUTCH1]

He's lucky, it's almost 4 bucks here, but I have to do premium so that's over $4/gal.

You guys don't remember that time when all the fuel pumps on BMWs failed because of corn? Good time, good time.

Must have been an ungodly repair for that deal. Why would they sell a car in the US market knowing we're using 99% blended gas with a fuel pump that could not handle it?.

 

[JulesMaximus]

He's lucky, it's almost 4 bucks here, but I have to do premium so that's over $4/gal.

You guys don't remember that time when all the fuel pumps on BMWs failed because of corn? Good time, good time.

FTR-This thread is a couple months old. Premium is well over $4/gallon here now.

 

[BUTCH1]

FTR-This thread is a couple months old. Premium is well over $4/gallon here now.

Yikes, why so high?, special Cali blends?, I'm paying $3.11 for the non-ethanol reg.

 

[rstrohkirch]

Well, last time I looked they had the highest taxes on their gas....shocking I know. They also at one time, or still do require special blends that up the price a little bit.

In Michigan we have a lot of recreational activities between land and lake so non-ethanol gas is relatively common here. Usually comes in 90 oct and runs about the same price as mid grade 89/90 with ethanol. Some places charge a little bit more and match premium 93 prices.

 

[xBiffx]

I'll add to an old thread. Its still a current topic worth discussing.

I work in the agriculture industry and part of my paycheck comes from the corn used to make ethanol. That being said, I agree with others that ethanol in the gas tank is pure evil. They are talking more and more about increasing to E15 here and its getting harder and harder to find pure gas. People who want this or think its doing any good can go straight to hell.

By the way, I only use premium E0 in my F150 ecoboost. Nets me between 10% and 15% more MPG which equates to around 2MPG. Makes a huge difference when you average 19 instead of 17.

 

[BUTCH1]

My Tacoma made it to ~283k miles before I sold it (and it still runs perfectly - owned by a friend 5 minutes away). I replaced what appeared to be the OEM fuel pump around 280k. Are you planning on keeping your vehicle to 500k+ or something? Other than motorcycle fuel tanks, I haven't heard of any modern vehicles having problems running E10.
NM

 

[Subyman]

I know that ethanol has less energy content per volume, but I do not understand why the OP thinks his vehicle is running better unless it is an older model car that can not compensate. My truck makes 25 more hp when filled with E85 when compared to regular gasoline. Seat of pants it runs better, but of course it gets worst MPG.

 

[BUTCH1]

I know that ethanol has less energy content per volume, but I do not understand why the OP thinks his vehicle is running better unless it is an older model car that can not compensate. My truck makes 25 more hp when filled with E85 when compared to regular gasoline. Seat of pants it runs better, but of course it gets worst MPG.

How would you know it makes 25 more HP unless you had it measured at a dyno?. Since ethanol is less "energy-dense" than gasoline I don't get it. Like I said, the differences were very minor and the car is an '05 model so it would be able to adjust to different fuels. The most noticeable is a slight improvement at idle, it has a little "walk" to it when I run 10% blend vs non-ethanol but again this and it feeling a little "peppier" might be as much in my brain than in reality LOL.
EDIT: Oh, OK, my bad, your using the 85% ethanol blend, I had it backwards thinking you were running 85% gas 15% ethanol.

 

[natto fire]

I know that ethanol has less energy content per volume, but I do not understand why the OP thinks his vehicle is running better unless it is an older model car that can not compensate. My truck makes 25 more hp when filled with E85 when compared to regular gasoline. Seat of pants it runs better, but of course it gets worst MPG.

The placebo effect works with vehicles, just as well as in medicine.

 

[BUTCH1]

The placebo effect works with vehicles, just as well as in medicine.

Yea, I might be proof of that although the idle is better I doubt it's any faster.

 

[Anubis]

Must have been an ungodly repair for that deal. Why would they sell a car in the US market knowing we're using 99% blended gas with a fuel pump that could not handle it?.

8k ish IIRC

similar range to what BMW and WV had to deal with with the diesel HPFPs blowing up