-
We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.
New Pentagon Report Calls Iraq "A Major Debacle"
Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Lemon law
Lifer
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, it is somewhat amazing what kind of actual honesty emerges when your employer is no longer in the pictures and the real truth can be told.
If this were an actual defense department report, it would never see the light of day.
But its does somewhat bring back the memories of the Pentagon papers. That revealed that
there were in fact two versions of the truth. The honest internal version that Vietnam was an intractable quagmire and the public version that only saw bright lights at the end of a short tunnel.
Woofmeister
Golden Member
Are any of you reading this thread? Has anybody read my previous post? The author of the report is Joseph Collins and he is a source "beyond question". Collins has also provided a statement to Small Wars Journal referring to media accounts of his report as a "distortion". This is a portion of his statement:
For those of you who can't be bothered to read a paragraph when you've already made up your minds, the author of the report describes it as a study of the period 2002-04. By my math, thats four years ago. The author of the report also believes that the reference to the report by McClatchy (as reported in the Miami Herald) as a "New report" is a "distortion."
There's little doubt that Iraq in 2002-2004 was a "major debacle." The situation in Iraq 2008 however, is completely different for a host of reasons including but not limited to: the Sunni "Awakening" in Anbar Province; the redeployment of Coalition forces into Iraqi neighborhoods from remote bases; al Qaeda in Iraq overstretch and rejection by Sunni tribes and; most recently, the defeat of the Mehdi Army in Basra and Baghdad by regular Iraqi forces.
It would help the public debate greatly if everyone who expressed an opinion on Iraq took the time to read the full source documents rather than the summary reported in the paper.
Ozoned
Diamond Member
People that work in "Senior" positions in our government make a lot more money after their service. There is always someone willing to foot the bill to get an opinion out. I would be willing to bet that Colonel Collins income increased dramatically, prior to this study being released.
BMW540I6speed
Golden Member
"Johnny Got His Gun"
Chapter 10
You can always hear the people who are willing to sacrifice somebody else's life. They're plenty loud and they talk all the time. You can find them in churches and schools and newspapers and legislatures and congress. That's their business. They sound wonderful. Death before dishonor. This ground sanctified by blood. These men who died so gloriously. They shall not have died in vain. Our noble dead.
But what do the dead say?"
Nobody but the dead know whether all the things people talk about are worth dying for or not. And the dead can't talk. So the words about noble deaths and sacred blood and honor and such are all put into dead lips by grave robbers and fakes who have no right to speak for the dead. If a man says death before dishonor he is either a fool or a liar because he doesn't know what death is.
destrekor
Lifer
McCain has said time and time again, that he only wants to stay in Iraq until the job can said to be done, when our pulling troops out won't completely topple the current Iraq government.
Sorry to say, Obama has pretty much said the same thing, just worded differently. He wants to pull troops out, but only when it is secure enough to do so and everything that has been accomplished won't be undone.
Clinton? Hell, that bitch never knows what to think. She speaks to get votes, that is all. If Kerry was a flip-flopper, Clinton is worse. I don't know why nobody has caught up on that. She supported the war, and continued to do so for awhile. But when it became a negative view, she suddenly supports the notion of cutting losses and brining everyone home right now. But she keeps changing her stance on that too.
What's a voter to do? Oh, that's right... actually listen to what they have to say and educate themselves on the choices. Nobody seems to notice these little details though.
And everyone wants to get on board with the notion of pulling out ASAP... I hope those folks enjoys the utter waste of lives the little excursion was. Pulling out now, or even this summer at the current rate, would basically ensure everything that has been accomplished completely disappearing.
It's a shitty situation either way. Staying the course is just going to cost more lives, but we need more troops over there in the meantime. Stretching the forces out thin is a BAD idea. More forces mean they can be in more places, and maintain security on a much larger scale. The current surge has already proven to be successful in the short term, that and deals cut with certain groups in Iraq. The best course of action, and can be accomplished relatively shortly compared to the time invested now, would be to continue negotiating with the groups that are fighting there, insisting on cease fires and a break of action, while at the same time we increase our presence with another surge. Security would continue to be maintained in formerly rough areas (al Qaeda in Iraq has written in journals found that the increased presence is proving to make their operations difficult if not impossible to pull off, and has resulted in decreased violence)...
We definitely need to get out soon, but we need to get some kind of peace offered, where they all cooperate and are represented in the government. Groups formerly holding power all of a sudden have none, and are not happy. They need fair and equal representation in the government, and if they can get that, which it sounds like one of the big things they want and are afraid they won't have, and we ensure we'll leave and let their security forces handle any problems... it might just work out.
Or that may completely backfire. But a surge in the meantime is going to help get Iraq in the right direction. Pulling out suddenly is NOT what we should do at this very moment. Not if the US wants to secure the end goal of a stable democratic ally in the rough M.E..
It's definitely a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation. Nobody is going to be truly happy with either course of action. People just need to educate themselves more.
+
I'm sure the grunts on the ground are doing their jobs the best they can, but their leadership has failed them miserably, all the way to the Traitor In Chief and his criminal crew.
After 9-11, they sent our military into Afghanistan to clean out Al Qaeda, who attacked us, and the Taliban, who gave them shelter and protection. It was the right thing to do, and it should already have been won, but the Turd In Chief had his eye on Iraq, even before the first shot was fired in Afghanistan.
So he pulled men and equipment out of Afghanistan into a fool's battle in Iraq. He sent an underequipped, undermanned force, inadequate in number and unprepared in training to finish the misplanned war he was starting, there, and, in so doing, he gutted the forces in Afghanistan, leaving them vulnerable and similarly underequipped and our military stretched so close to the breaking point that our forces in both countries are at severe risk as the Taliban has regrouped and regained strength.
In his infinite stupidity, the Turd In Chief may have blown victories in both the war we should already have won in Afghanistan and in his criminal war of lies in Iraq.
blackangst1
Lifer
Where's your death clock?
Where's your Traitor In Chief's grasp on reality... or yours? While we're asking,
- Where are those facilities for making nerve gas or biological weapons?
- Where are those long range rockets your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where are those WMD's your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where were those sufficiently armored vehicles to protect our troops?
- Where are all those REAL Al Qaeda guys your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where was Al Qaeda in Iraq before your Traitor In Chief created the condtions to allow them to come into existence?
- Where's the adequate funding for those tens of thousands of wounded, scarred and disabled vets your Traitor in Chief failed to provide?
- Where are we going to recoup those trillions of dollars your Traitor in Chief squandered on his war of lies?
- hat does that lying piece of shit traitor have to say to the families and friends of those 4,041 American troops he MURDERED as of 4-21-08 and all of those yet to die in his war of LIES?
🙁
Lemon law
Lifer
As palehorse74 continues to say as he flies a desk---You seriously do not know, or truly understand, a god'damn thing about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Matter of fact I think I have some perspectives because I have some understanding of people and human history. While I take some cheer over the fact that many members of the US military show some ability to walk at least an a 1/4" in someone else shoes, you seem to be the poster child for clueless.
Why is it that I suspect that if General Pretraeus saw a singe post you made, he would yank your sad and sorry ass back to the US where you could do no more damage.
After five and more years of total failure, you Palehorse74, are exactly the last person on earth who can claim one iota of competence. If nothing else, maybe its time for you to realize your stupidity is not an asset, its a net US liability.
You palehorse74, quite frankly make me disgusted. Not at the US military as a whole, but at you yourself. Now get a damn life, get a mirror and ask why you are failing? And don't make a single post until you either get some self enlightenment or start showing some results. Put up or shut up.
Matter of fact I think I have some perspectives because I have some understanding of people and human history. While I take some cheer over the fact that many members of the US military show some ability to walk at least an a 1/4" in someone else shoes, you seem to be the poster child for clueless.
Why is it that I suspect that if General Pretraeus saw a singe post you made, he would yank your sad and sorry ass back to the US where you could do no more damage.
After five and more years of total failure, you Palehorse74, are exactly the last person on earth who can claim one iota of competence. If nothing else, maybe its time for you to realize your stupidity is not an asset, its a net US liability.
You palehorse74, quite frankly make me disgusted. Not at the US military as a whole, but at you yourself. Now get a damn life, get a mirror and ask why you are failing? And don't make a single post until you either get some self enlightenment or start showing some results. Put up or shut up.
destrekor
Lifer
Originally posted by: Harvey
Where's your Traitor In Chief's grasp on reality... or yours? While we're asking,And finally, what is YOUR lame ass excuse for continuing to pimp your Traitor in Chief's bloody, criminal agenda? :|
- Where are those facilities for making nerve gas or biological weapons?
- Where are those long range rockets your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where are those WMD's your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where were those sufficiently armored vehicles to protect our troops?
- Where are all those REAL Al Qaeda guys your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where was Al Qaeda in Iraq before your Traitor In Chief created the condtions to allow them to come into existence?
- Where's the adequate funding for those tens of thousands of wounded, scarred and disabled vets your Traitor in Chief failed to provide?
- Where are we going to recoup those trillions of dollars your Traitor in Chief squandered on his war of lies?
- hat does that lying piece of shit traitor have to say to the families and friends of those 4,041 American troops he MURDERED as of 4-21-08 and all of those yet to die in his war of LIES?
🙁
holy shit I've never seen someone so hellbent and completely misguided....
Do you understand how our government works?
Do you understand the President does not have as much power as you want to believe?
Do you think everything the President said was of his own knowledge? Oh, how well that would sell to Congress (who authorized the war).
Misinformation is NOT the President's fault. If the top intelligence agents were able to find authentic looking data that could convince Congress, well it's on Congress for approving. Even if there was some grand conspiracy (lmao), Congress could still lawfully deny the bid for war, and it would have been done with.
Everyone seems to forget about Congress, and how corrupt they are/can be. Power lies in that body. Any good citizen should heavily research the politicians running for Senate or the House', because they ultimately, when combined, have ultimate authority.
The fact that everyone seems to not understand this is what worries me about the citizens of this country... a President/hopeful-President's views mean nothing if he doesn't have Congressional support.
+
It is rediculously funny watching you run your mouth with absolutely 0 experience to someone that not only actually has first hand experience, but, is in-country (or just was or just will be, can't remember which).
An analogy would be someone who watches cooking shows - but has never cooked nor has any F'ing clue about cooking or fine cuisine - telling one of the cooks at a fine restuaurant that he's a failure because picky b@stards keep coming in and not liking the sophisticaed cuisine there.
The saying You repeat a lie enough it'll be true is so apt here...as what you and your ilk keep repeating (and are invested so heavily in) is failure in Iraq, failure in Iraq. The most disgusting thing LL is that I truly believe you whack jobs on here will be disappointed when Iraq truly stands on its own in a successful manner. Queue for either a LL 'And chucky2 delusionaliy asserts' post or The Macro :heart: my ( ) | ( ) post.... :roll:
Chuck
Originally posted by: destrekor
Originally posted by: Harvey
Where's your Traitor In Chief's grasp on reality... or yours? While we're asking,And finally, what is YOUR lame ass excuse for continuing to pimp your Traitor in Chief's bloody, criminal agenda? :|
- Where are those facilities for making nerve gas or biological weapons?
- Where are those long range rockets your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where are those WMD's your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where were those sufficiently armored vehicles to protect our troops?
- Where are all those REAL Al Qaeda guys your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where was Al Qaeda in Iraq before your Traitor In Chief created the condtions to allow them to come into existence?
- Where's the adequate funding for those tens of thousands of wounded, scarred and disabled vets your Traitor in Chief failed to provide?
- Where are we going to recoup those trillions of dollars your Traitor in Chief squandered on his war of lies?
- hat does that lying piece of shit traitor have to say to the families and friends of those 4,041 American troops he MURDERED as of 4-21-08 and all of those yet to die in his war of LIES?
🙁
holy shit I've never seen someone so hellbent and completely misguided....
Do you understand how our government works?
Do you understand the President does not have as much power as you want to believe?
Do you think everything the President said was of his own knowledge? Oh, how well that would sell to Congress (who authorized the war).
Misinformation is NOT the President's fault. If the top intelligence agents were able to find authentic looking data that could convince Congress, well it's on Congress for approving. Even if there was some grand conspiracy (lmao), Congress could still lawfully deny the bid for war, and it would have been done with.
Everyone seems to forget about Congress, and how corrupt they are/can be. Power lies in that body. Any good citizen should heavily research the politicians running for Senate or the House', because they ultimately, when combined, have ultimate authority.
The fact that everyone seems to not understand this is what worries me about the citizens of this country... a President/hopeful-President's views mean nothing if he doesn't have Congressional support.
+
You don't understand destrekor, with some of these Wackjobs around here on P&N, it has to be "Bush&Co's" fault. There is no other way they can rationalize their dismay at their candidates loosing twice, or their Congress authorizing War, or F'ing moron citizens and corrupt/unethical lenders bankrupting our country (which their Congress watches over), etc.
There will be absolutely nothing - no logic, no rationale, nothing - that you will be able to use to keep them on a sane exchange of opinions instead of at absolute crazed frothing at the mouth - a macronization of psychosis if you will - diatribe.
Chuck
Lemon law
Lifer
Question chucky2----as you say---The saying You repeat a lie enough it'll be true is so apt here...as what you and your ilk keep repeating (and are invested so heavily in) is failure in Iraq, failure in Iraq. The most disgusting thing LL is that I truly believe you whack jobs on here will be disappointed when Iraq truly stands on its own in a successful manner. Queue for either a LL 'And chucky2 delusionaliy asserts' post or The Macro my ( ) | ( ) post....
Chuck
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you are asserting is the great lie, Say the great lie enough times and everyone accepts its true.
When in fact its now a pissing contest between two great lies.
The palehorse74 contention that we are winning. And somewhat my contention that we cannot win with palehorse74 type stinking thinking.
See the results, which great lie do we believe.
Chuck
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you are asserting is the great lie, Say the great lie enough times and everyone accepts its true.
When in fact its now a pissing contest between two great lies.
The palehorse74 contention that we are winning. And somewhat my contention that we cannot win with palehorse74 type stinking thinking.
See the results, which great lie do we believe.
No, it's YOU who doesn't understand. It IS the fault of your Traitor In Chief and his gang of traitors, murderers, war criminals and liars. If you believe otherwise, either you're one of the criminals, or you simply haven't been paying attention to reality for the last seven years.
Don't even bother to reply until you've read every link to every piece of the mountain of conclusive evidence posted against them on P&N, and you're prepared to refute every one of them. Anything less is absolute bullshit.
Well, after 5 years of self-rule with US forces trying to help and nearly everyone else yelling Failure! and Hurry up! and Abandon Them!, the Iraqi's sure aren't doing too bad for such a repressed and diverse people.
Many forget we had our out little race problem here 40 years ago that wasn't so pretty, and that was with a couple of hundred years of homogenous structured rule under out belt.
Everyone is wanting the Iraqi's to just Snap! be perfect at ruling themselves and figuring out decades long struggles in a rediculously short amount of time. That none of her brother neighbors - who will lament at the evil US - have stepped out of their way to help, and instead in many cases support the funneling of dissenting individuals into her ranks who have less business being there than we do, tells me exactly how much faith I'll put in the dissenting ME viewpoint outside of Iraq.
If you don't like ph's reasoning, then offer up some bright insights of your own...one word'ers like 'diplomacy' don't mean sh1t. To suggest there isn't 'diplomacy' happening behind the scenes in mass scale - which largely goes unreported for various reasons - is perhaps lunacy greater than even you are capable of.
To pull out and abandon the Iraqi's - and the rest of the ME long term with it - would be a crime of such moral magnitude it would be unthinkable.
The 'Major Debacle' is not Iraq, it's the US population not getting behind something and abandoning it with lack of support. That's where you come in...
Chuck
US forces trying to help...
Repressed and diverse people...
Manifest Destiny is strong in this one :roll:
Lemon law
Lifer
Well in terms of the chucly2 delusion of ---Everyone is wanting the Iraqi's to just Snap! be perfect at ruling themselves and figuring out decades long struggles in a rediculously short amount of time.
Lets see---we were in in Vietnam for like ten years big time. 1963 to 1973 when Nixon threw in the towel. The Brits were only in Iraq for 17 years, 1920 to 1937 before they threw in the towel.
Yet the chucky2 delusion is that somehow a botched occupation will turn into a success if we just keep screwing up long enough.
Chucky2, exactly how ridiculousness do you think you sound here? Are you really that clueless?
As for the US population getting behind it, count me out, I was in that 10% who knew that GWB&co were lying sacks of shit before he lied us into Iraq. . Yet I have to admit, we broke it, we bought it, and its long past time to try smarter tactics. What part of the fact that GWB tactics are not worth defending do you have a problem with chucky2.?
Face the fact, dumb strategies always fail. AlWAYS.
Yet you are in total denial of the fact that smarter strategies exist. Just like palehorse74. Making you not part of the solution, but a big part of the problem.
Face the facts, GWB&co. are total idiots. We cannot make any progress with them in charge. None Nada zippo Zit. Wake up, smell coffee, way it is.. See reality if you do not believe me.
cliftonite
Diamond Member
Originally posted by: chucky2
Originally posted by: destrekor
Originally posted by: Harvey
Where's your Traitor In Chief's grasp on reality... or yours? While we're asking,And finally, what is YOUR lame ass excuse for continuing to pimp your Traitor in Chief's bloody, criminal agenda? :|
- Where are those facilities for making nerve gas or biological weapons?
- Where are those long range rockets your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where are those WMD's your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where were those sufficiently armored vehicles to protect our troops?
- Where are all those REAL Al Qaeda guys your Traitor in Chief said were there?
- Where was Al Qaeda in Iraq before your Traitor In Chief created the condtions to allow them to come into existence?
- Where's the adequate funding for those tens of thousands of wounded, scarred and disabled vets your Traitor in Chief failed to provide?
- Where are we going to recoup those trillions of dollars your Traitor in Chief squandered on his war of lies?
- hat does that lying piece of shit traitor have to say to the families and friends of those 4,041 American troops he MURDERED as of 4-21-08 and all of those yet to die in his war of LIES?
🙁
holy shit I've never seen someone so hellbent and completely misguided....
Do you understand how our government works?
Do you understand the President does not have as much power as you want to believe?
Do you think everything the President said was of his own knowledge? Oh, how well that would sell to Congress (who authorized the war).
Misinformation is NOT the President's fault. If the top intelligence agents were able to find authentic looking data that could convince Congress, well it's on Congress for approving. Even if there was some grand conspiracy (lmao), Congress could still lawfully deny the bid for war, and it would have been done with.
Everyone seems to forget about Congress, and how corrupt they are/can be. Power lies in that body. Any good citizen should heavily research the politicians running for Senate or the House', because they ultimately, when combined, have ultimate authority.
The fact that everyone seems to not understand this is what worries me about the citizens of this country... a President/hopeful-President's views mean nothing if he doesn't have Congressional support.
+
You don't understand destrekor, with some of these Wackjobs around here on P&N, it has to be "Bush&Co's" fault. There is no other way they can rationalize their dismay at their candidates loosing twice, or their Congress authorizing War, or F'ing moron citizens and corrupt/unethical lenders bankrupting our country (which their Congress watches over), etc.
There will be absolutely nothing - no logic, no rationale, nothing - that you will be able to use to keep them on a sane exchange of opinions instead of at absolute crazed frothing at the mouth - a macronization of psychosis if you will - diatribe.
Chuck
Your Congress had nothing to do with the war? Your Congress is not bankrupting the country? It is pathetic of you to put the blame on one side.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 24K
-
-
