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New jail abuse allegations hit US

Sultan

Banned
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4113679.stm

Fresh allegations have emerged of serious mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by US military personnel.
Memos between FBI officials detailing abuses, some dated after the Abu Ghraib jail scandal, were released as part of a lawsuit against the government.

Others allege serious abuse of inmates held at the Guantanamo Bay naval base, mostly captives from the Afghan war.

The American Civil Liberties Union brought the case to determine whether the US was mistreating prisoners.

ACLU executive director Anthony Romero said the documents raised grave questions about who was to blame for widespread detainee abuse.

"Top government officials can no longer hide from public scrutiny by pointing the finger at a few low-ranking soldiers," he said.

Last week documents released for the case threw up fresh revelations of abuse in Iraq by US marines, 13 of whom have been convicted and some jailed.

'Executive order'

The documents, which were obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, are mostly made up of communications between FBI agents concerned at seeing interrogation techniques they are prohibited from using in their own investigations.

One of the memorandums released on Monday provided the account of an agent who observed "serious physical abuses" in Iraq.

It was dated 24 June - two months after the extent of abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison was revealed - and was marked "urgent" and sent to FBI Director Robert Mueller.

It described strangulation, beatings and the placing of lit cigarettes into detainees' ears.

Another document said an executive order signed by President George W Bush had authorised techniques such as "sleep management", stress positions, use of military dogs and sensory deprivation.

The White House was quick to respond to this allegation, saying: "What the FBI agent wrote in the e-mail is wrong. There is no executive order on interrogation techniques."

Impersonation

A document relating to Guantanamo suggests that detainees - mostly suspected Taleban and al-Qaeda fighters captured during the war in Afghanistan - were shackled to the floor in foetal positions for more than 24 hours at a time, left without food and water and allowed to defecate on themselves.

One detainee's air conditioning was turned off in an unventilated room, making it unbearably hot, it was reported.

"The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor with a pile of hair next to him," the memo said. "He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night."

Other allegations contained in the e-mails include:


That military interrogators impersonated FBI agents, apparently to avoid possible blame in subsequent inquiries

That this method was approved by Deputy Defence Secretary Paul Wolfowitz

The rape of a juvenile male detainee at Abu Ghraib prison, currently under investigation

That one Guantanamo detainee was wrapped in an Israeli flag and bombarded with loud music in an apparent attempt to soften his resistance to interrogation.
The Pentagon has not commented on the latest allegations of abuse, but spokesman Bryan Whitman denied that Mr Wolfowitz had approved impersonation techniques.
The department has also said in relation to previous cases that it did not tolerate abusive tactics.

Some allegations in the documents are under investigation, the Pentagon added.

 
That one Guantanamo detainee was wrapped in an Israeli flag and bombarded with loud music in an apparent attempt to soften his resistance to interrogation.

The horror..... the horror...
 
Originally posted by: rudder
That one Guantanamo detainee was wrapped in an Israeli flag and bombarded with loud music in an apparent attempt to soften his resistance to interrogation.

The horror..... the horror...

Some other abuses:

Marked "Urgent report"
Dated 24 June 2004
Addressed to "The Director" (FBI chief Robert Mueller) and other senior officials
From Sacramento Division

The account of "an individual" who allegedly witnessed serious physical abuses of prisoners in Iraq, including strangulation, beatings, placing of lit cigarettes in detainees' ears and unauthorised interrogations.

Marked "sensitive but unclassified"
Dated 2 August 2004
Name of sender blanked out

The writer claims to have witnessed abuses at Guantanamo Bay, including seeing an inmate chained hand a foot in a foetal position to the floor, with no chair, food, or water. They often urinated or defecated on themselves and had been left for over 24 hours.

On one occasion a detainee appeared to have pulled his hair out after having to spend the night in a room without ventilation or air conditioning.

Very nice of you to miss those 🙂
 
Originally posted by: rudder
That one Guantanamo detainee was wrapped in an Israeli flag and bombarded with loud music in an apparent attempt to soften his resistance to interrogation.

The horror..... the horror...

can i stick lit cigarettes in your ears while you're in a 100+ degree room with no AC?
 
funny that none of this was being reported regarding Iraq over the last 20+ years.
 
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
funny that none of this was being reported regarding Iraq over the last 20+ years.

is that your justification for what our "liberating" troops are doing in Iraq right now?
 
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
funny that none of this was being reported regarding Iraq over the last 20+ years.

is that your justification for what our "liberating" troops are doing in Iraq right now?

No - it is not justification. Just an example of how rose colored glasses are used.

Some of the items being done are unacceptable, others are acceptable in terms of the context of war and intterogation. If infomration is able to be obtained to save lives, then get it at the expese of jhumiliating and making the prisoner feel uncomfortable.

The rape and stangulation are the only ones listed that I would take exception to.

I feel that providing pork products for food and clothing/sleep wear should have been started immediately along with most of the reported techniques.

 
I just love how the US is held to higher standards than the rest of the world.

Rape, pillage, torture? Sure! as long as you arent the US.

Not making excuses for the US by any means....wrong is wrong. However for those that criticize the US, they need to take a long, hard look at their own societies and governments.
 
We should just cut off their heads with a rusty knife instead. That seems acceptable. At least, all the Islamofascist apologists would seem to think so.
 
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
funny that none of this was being reported regarding Iraq over the last 20+ years.

is that your justification for what our "liberating" troops are doing in Iraq right now?

No - it is not justification. Just an example of how rose colored glasses are used.

Some of the items being done are unacceptable, others are acceptable in terms of the context of war and intterogation. If infomration is able to be obtained to save lives, then get it at the expese of jhumiliating and making the prisoner feel uncomfortable.

The rape and stangulation are the only ones listed that I would take exception to.

I feel that providing pork products for food and clothing/sleep wear should have been started immediately along with most of the reported techniques.

We would have saved a lot more lives if we hadnt embarked on this misadventure. And if you think providing pork product for food - a forbidden diet - among the other means of torture by the "liberators" will not enrage civilians and insurgents alike in Iraq, you're lost in your own world.
 
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
funny that none of this was being reported regarding Iraq over the last 20+ years.

is that your justification for what our "liberating" troops are doing in Iraq right now?

No - it is not justification. Just an example of how rose colored glasses are used.

Some of the items being done are unacceptable, others are acceptable in terms of the context of war and intterogation. If infomration is able to be obtained to save lives, then get it at the expese of jhumiliating and making the prisoner feel uncomfortable.

The rape and stangulation are the only ones listed that I would take exception to.

I feel that providing pork products for food and clothing/sleep wear should have been started immediately along with most of the reported techniques.

We would have saved a lot more lives if we hadnt embarked on this misadventure. And if you think providing pork product for food - a forbidden diet - among the other means of torture by the "liberators" will not enrage civilians and insurgents alike in Iraq, you're lost in your own world.

Whether it enrages the civilian and insurgents is a moot point. IF it gets the information to save lives, that is what counts.
I would expect that the civilians have enough sense to understand what is going on. They went through it for 20+ years.
The die-hgard insurgents will not make any difference to/ Maybe some-one who has stronger religious beliefs than just following the crowd may have second thoughts if they knew that they would become unclean if captured while supporting the insurrgents.

 
Originally posted by: Centinel
I just love how the US is held to higher standards than the rest of the world.

Rape, pillage, torture? Sure! as long as you arent the US.

Not making excuses for the US by any means....wrong is wrong. However for those that criticize the US, they need to take a long, hard look at their own societies and governments.

The US IS held to a higher standard than the rest of the world, or are you trying to say we should be judged at the same standards as people from Somalia or Rwanda?
 
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Sultan
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
funny that none of this was being reported regarding Iraq over the last 20+ years.

is that your justification for what our "liberating" troops are doing in Iraq right now?

No - it is not justification. Just an example of how rose colored glasses are used.

Some of the items being done are unacceptable, others are acceptable in terms of the context of war and intterogation. If infomration is able to be obtained to save lives, then get it at the expese of jhumiliating and making the prisoner feel uncomfortable.

The rape and stangulation are the only ones listed that I would take exception to.

I feel that providing pork products for food and clothing/sleep wear should have been started immediately along with most of the reported techniques.

We would have saved a lot more lives if we hadnt embarked on this misadventure. And if you think providing pork product for food - a forbidden diet - among the other means of torture by the "liberators" will not enrage civilians and insurgents alike in Iraq, you're lost in your own world.

Whether it enrages the civilian and insurgents is a moot point. IF it gets the information to save lives, that is what counts.
I would expect that the civilians have enough sense to understand what is going on. They went through it for 20+ years.
The die-hgard insurgents will not make any difference to/ Maybe some-one who has stronger religious beliefs than just following the crowd may have second thoughts if they knew that they would become unclean if captured while supporting the insurrgents.

I think you mooted your own point. If the Iraqis can wage war against the greatest military might in the world today, they could have done so in the last 20 years. That goes on to show they prefer what they went through in the last 20 years than US occupation. And if you suggest that these insurgents are a few in number as compared to the whole of Iraq, then these insurgents are pretty good in waging warfare, after having killed over 1300 of US troops.

In just what way will feeding people pig meat reveal any information whatsoever? Thats a really funny suggestion. It will only achieve further anger towards the occupation. That doesnt save lives, it puts more life into danger.
 
Originally posted by: Centinel
I just love how the US is held to higher standards than the rest of the world.

Rape, pillage, torture? Sure! as long as you arent the US.

Not making excuses for the US by any means....wrong is wrong. However for those that criticize the US, they need to take a long, hard look at their own societies and governments.


ummm *my* america will always be held to the highest standards. I am sorry, but saying that this is ok because others are doing worse is just not acceptable. We *ARE* morally superior than those "people" that do the beheadings or gas thousands of curds.

Great evils of the world have been done with the "well we're not as bad as ..." philosophy
 
The US should be and is held to the same standard as the rest of the western world not third world dictatorships like some people like to do.
 
Not surprising at all, stuff like this will alawys happen.

The US should be and is held to the same standard as the rest of the western world not third world dictatorships like some people like to do.

I agree with that! However we need to be consistent and apply the same standards to all of the western world and the UN.
 
If you think that "any" of this type of interrogation is a means to an end that is justifiable because it might save lives then you just pissed away the whole concept of being the "good guy". Everything that your family has ever fought for and died for is over and they have won.

You lost.

EDIT: spelling
 
Meh... personally anything is better than getting your head chopped off in a slow excruciating manner. However, we are the United States, the worlds superpower, we should adhere to higher standards... however I won't lose sleep over this.
 
Originally posted by: Czar
The US should be and is held to the same standard as the rest of the western world not third world dictatorships like some people like to do.

Some of the Western world wants to hold us to a higher standard than they want for themselves.
The same goes with the 2nd and 3rd world.

In otherwords, the attitude is "Do as I say, not as I do. But do not critize me for what I do."

 
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Not surprising at all, stuff like this will alawys happen.

The US should be and is held to the same standard as the rest of the western world not third world dictatorships like some people like to do.

I agree with that! However we need to be consistent and apply the same standards to all of the western world and the UN.

totaly agree, though the UN is way more complex than indevidual countries.... since it isnt a country and involves just about every country in the world
 
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: Czar
The US should be and is held to the same standard as the rest of the western world not third world dictatorships like some people like to do.

Some of the Western world wants to hold us to a higher standard than they want for themselves.
The same goes with the 2nd and 3rd world.

In otherwords, the attitude is "Do as I say, not as I do. But do not critize me for what I do."
does it make them right or does it make the US right?

got examples?
 
Originally posted by: Aelius
If you think that "any" of this type of interrogation is a means to an end that is justifiable because it might save lives then you just pissed away the whole concept of being the "good guy". Everything that your family has every fought for and died for is over and they have won.

You lost.

Not any type of interrogation is justified,

Those that will break a person's will and without destroying the body is valid.

Many feel that one should not subject a person to any type of hardship, let them volunteer information.
That does not work.

 
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Not surprising at all, stuff like this will alawys happen.

The US should be and is held to the same standard as the rest of the western world not third world dictatorships like some people like to do.

I agree with that! However we need to be consistent and apply the same standards to all of the western world and the UN.

totaly agree, though the UN is way more complex than indevidual countries.... since it isnt a country and involves just about every country in the world

It definitely is complex, but complexity is not an excuse to ignore these problems.

It would be very interesting to see what people say about the US troops in Iraqi prisons and about the UN scandals. I would imagine that it would be pretty funny to see such inconsistent behavior. Maybe I was involved in it, too.
 
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