New GWB thinking on the bombing of Iran

[Lemon law]

Ran across this on yahoo news and I must confess the Kyl Lieberman amendment flew under my Radar.

But serious dangerous thinking in MHO. And hands GWB and Cheney an almost blank check.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenat...OIRSg5B.cGSvNUhrr9wxIF

I can't see this as being possibly justified and anything else but a declaration of all out war. Nor can I see the rest of the world supporting this?

Does not our congress ever learn?

Update an modified amendment passed 70-22 with Reid, Shumer, and Hillary voting aye. Dodd and Biden voted no, Obama not present.

 

[ProfJohn]

Can we take anyone who quotes Sy Hersh seriously? "Sometimes I change events, dates, and places in a certain way to protect people... I can?t fudge what I write. But I can certainly fudge what I say."

This is the guy who claimed way back in April of 2006 that we were preparing to bomb Iran with nuclear buster bunkers.

BTW "The Nation" isn't exactly the most unbiased source either.

 

[Lemon law]

Sy Hersh still has some good sources one cannot entirely discount and he nailed the Israeli incursion into Lebanon last summer. Call it an opinion if you will, but I don't think the Senate should be running around giving GWB an inch of slack, in the case of GWB, give him any rope and he will hang us all.

My prediction is, if GWB bombs anywhere inside of Iran, the international community will go ballistic. And then simply take the USA down economically by calling in the debt.

 

[eits]

it doesn't surprise me...

my parents have already started preparations to bring some of our family members from iran to the united states... they also paid money to the iranian government to get our relatives out of the service. in iran, whenever a boy turns 18, they have to do like 4 years of military service, unless you pay your way out (because that's what terrorist organization members do... they get drafted unwillingly, right? iran's military = 18-22 year old kids who don't care about the government who got forced into service = terrorist organization? what the fuck?). we recently got one of our cousins over and he's in the process of learning more english and trying to find a job. we're trying to bring more of our relatives over so our military doesn't kill them.

anyone see the irony?

WE'RE calling IRAN'S military a terrorist organization... some of you might not get the irony or might not want to get it because it might be a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.

 

[ProfJohn]

Lemon, you?re an idiot and you just proved it with your ?call in the debt? comment.

Our debt can NOT be called in.

Plus why would the world want to take down the most powerful economy on the face of the planet? Our economy goes down and we take the rest of the world with us.

IF we attack Iran the world will do the same thing it did when we attacked Iraq, bitch, moan and groan.

Plus? all this bitchin about how Democrats don?t have the votes in congress to do anything, and then they pass this bill? WTF! Bitch bitch bitch about the war? hey I have an idea! Let?s give Bush a free pass to bomb Iran! Great idea? :roll:

 

[ProfJohn]

Eits? I think we are only calling a small part of their military a terrorist organization.

It was the same way with Saddam and the Republican Guard. We beat the hell out of the guard and then watched the rest of the army run for its life.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we went after their nuke sites, terrorist camps and government, but you have to wonder if the risks are worth the rewards.

BTW I take it your Persian?

 

[eits]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Eits? I think we are only calling a small part of their military a terrorist organization.

It was the same way with Saddam and the Republican Guard. We beat the hell out of the guard and then watched the rest of the army run for its life.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we went after their nuke sites, terrorist camps and government, but you have to wonder if the risks are worth the rewards.

BTW I take it your Persian?

yes, i'm persian.

you can't call the iranian army a terrorist organization and then say "well, we only mean that PART of the army is a terrorist organization"... that's absurd.

besides, it's coming from leiberman... do you honestly think he's saying that only PART of the iranian government is a terrorist organization? this whole thing is absolute bullshit and it makes me sick to be an american while so many americans stand idly by and either let this crap happen or embrace it...

not only that but a majority of our legislators are for it... what the hell kind of ignorant-ass people do we have calling our shots?


edit: wait, did you just say that iran has nuke sites and terrorist camps?

 

[Lemon law]

If you read the link you can see that GWB&co has rightly concluded that he can't sell a full scale Iranian war so he will settle for some limited bombing. Now if Iran shuts down the Persian gulf, it won't matter about preserving the US economy because then the world economy will be already taken down with just about every nation on earth seething mad at the USA.

And you may well see the rest of the world calling in the US debt in ways you can't even conceive of.

You may trust GWB&co PJ, I sure don't. I just hope it does not get put to the test. We don't need a wider war than the one we have.

 

[ProfJohn]

Ways I can?t conceive of or ways you can?t conceive of? And you passed on the why question.

 

[bamacre]

Damn, the Republicans are screwing us, and the Democrats are doing nothing but handing out condoms. These two parties have ruined America more than any terrorist organization could have ever dreamed.

 

[theeedude]

These are neocons we are talking about. If reality flies in the face of their ideology, they stick by the ideology at all cost.

 

[NoStateofMind]

You know thats the biggest problem we have in America. The ones that believe we can do whatever we want to any country we want. This type of thinking disgusts me.:| Our executive branch, congress and a many of the citizens of this country have lost and forgotten to behold common human morals as paramount in decision making.

How can this be? What happened to the America that was the darling of the world after WWII? Has the power gone to our heads? How do we change the current immoral thinking back to moral?

I only hope its not too late....

 

[spittledip]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Damn, the Republicans are screwing us, and the Democrats are doing nothing but handing out condoms. These two parties have ruined America more than any terrorist organization could have ever dreamed.

Amen. This is some crazy shite. Is there really some plan to totally devastate the middle east? We are digging a hole for ourselves.. we are going to pay for all this crap we are causing.. scary stuff.

 

[GrGr]

The Knesset Democrats love war. Lieberman pushed hard for the Iraqi disaster too.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Plus why would the world want to take down the most powerful economy on the face of the planet? Our economy goes down and we take the rest of the world with us.

Maybe the world doesn't like PNAC or Neocons as much as you do?


Afghanistan
Iraq
Iran

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
You know thats the biggest problem we have in America. The ones that believe we can do whatever we want to any country we want. This type of thinking disgusts me.:| Our executive branch, congress and a many of the citizens of this country have lost and forgotten to behold common human morals as paramount in decision making.

How can this be? What happened to the America that was the darling of the world after WWII? Has the power gone to our heads? How do we change the current immoral thinking back to moral?

I only hope its not too late....

Not only are you right, but IMO, it's going to get far worse if the US (or in theory any nation) is actually able to shift the power more in its favor from where the US is now.

The US already has its power abused to use economic carrots to get small European nations to say what a wonderful idea they think it is for the US to invade so and so somewhere, in exchange for access to US markets and such; when the world shifts so that the US or any nation is 'the' broad global authority, and anyone else is an easily demonized group if they don't do as they're told, we have the future tyranny of the human race at hand.

When I oppose the US's (and other major powers') aggressions abroad, it's not just about those aggressions, it's a view that we need distributed power, not a 'global power'.

You hope it's not too late, but I can't offer you reassurance, especially based on the US public's level of discourse on these issues.

Even today, the opposition to the Iraq war seems over 90% based on the costs to us in troops and money, and less than 10% on any other concerns about Iraqis, law, peace, etc.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: eits
edit: wait, did you just say that iran has nuke sites and terrorist camps?

Nuke sites as in places they are working on the nuke weapons? if you believe that is what they are doing.

Terrorist camps as in places where the Islamic guard or whatever they call it work and make their IEDs etc etc.

Of course this is only if you believe what the western news says is going on in Iran.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: eits
edit: wait, did you just say that iran has nuke sites and terrorist camps?

Nuke sites as in places they are working on the nuke weapons? if you believe that is what they are doing.

Terrorist camps as in places where the Islamic guard or whatever they call it work and make their IEDs etc etc.

Of course this is only if you believe what the western news says is going on in Iran.

We have no reason to believe it. The old "wool over our eyes" trick worked the first time in Iraq. Not this time. <waives finger back and forth>

 

[trenchfoot]

Originally posted by: senseamp
These are neocons we are talking about. If reality flies in the face of their ideology, they stick by the ideology at all cost.

the neocons remind me of a rabid wandering lynch mob looking for victims that they can hang and confiscate property from.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: tweaker2

Originally posted by: senseamp
These are neocons we are talking about. If reality flies in the face of their ideology, they stick by the ideology at all cost.

the neocons remind me of a rabid wandering lynch mob looking for victims that they can hang and confiscate property from.

And the Democrats are in cahoots. They aren?t as leftist as P&N?s Dems. If being left somehow signifies that you support nuclear proliferation and state sponsored acts of war against our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

[Lemon law]

The equally disturbing news is the shifting of everyone in the CIA to the Iranian desks. Even Neocons can't go into war without some pre planned bungling.

Who is the new Chalabi they are listening to? And when are they going to start the PR campaign?

I do have some possibly mis placed optimism that people of good sense can stop the war drums. But we can now remove Hillary from the people of good sense list. And look for a no show like Obama to continue to straddle the fence until its too late.

 

[StageLeft]

my parents have already started preparations to bring some of our family members from iran to the united states

Screw that, the US should not be allowing your relatives from Iran, who are obviously and undeniably terrorists (or certainly sympathetic to them) into this country! *

this whole thing is absolute bullshit and it makes me sick to be an american while so many americans stand idly by and either let this crap happen or embrace it...

I agree, it's terrible. The ignorant-ass people calling the shots are supported by the ignorant-ass populous. It's freaking terrible is what it is. This country is a chicken with its head cut off running around like a nitwit.

Damn, the Republicans are screwing us, and the Democrats are doing nothing but handing out condoms. These two parties have ruined America more than any terrorist organization could have ever dreamed.

Good post!

Has the power gone to our heads?

Yes, it has.

The US has interests and is trying to project them upon the world. It's powerful enough for the arrogant to think they can do it, but it's not powerful enough to actually do it. It's a strong nation but in the end still only 1/20th the population of the world and lacks the power to project enough to shape things as desired. The last half century is a tale of the US trying this and the record is definitely mixed. Gulf War I was a success. Everything worked out nicely. GWII, pretty horrific. Vietnam also terrible. Supporting Saddam in the 80's, not so good, dito on Osama Bin Laden. The US seems to bring up spoiled kids that then bite the hand that fed them.

Have there been any poll numbers? I've not seen them. I would love to know what the proles think about a limited strike against Iran right now. I don't even know if a limited strike is possible. Will the Iranian people and government stand by while their country is attacked? The gov still maintains they are building peaceable power plants (which may or may not be the case). If the US gov with its theoretical freedom of press can sell anything to its people, how easy do you think it will be for the Iranians to sell to their people that the country's energy-only nuclear facilities are being attacked? They will be PISSED. They will want blood and that blood can be had right next door. No navy or air force needed! You think the iranians are supporting insurgents in iraq now, wait until the US has just sent bombers into Iran.

* That was a joke!

 

[TheNewbie]

I find it hard to believe, but the fact is that too many of our people are idiots who cannot understand the threats from a nuclear Iran. luckily for them (and the rest of us) they don't call the shots.

Pathetic claims like "oh noes they're gonna bring down our economy blah blah blah..." WTF are you talking about? Who's going to bring down our economy?! Other than no one really wanting or being able to do anything like that, there's no "serious" country that even if it could who would risk its own stability just to get back at us, so STFU with that BS.

Learn some economics (and/or open history books), war is usually if anything, good for the economy (unless you lose, but its not really an issue in this case...).

 

[StageLeft]

Who's going to bring down our economy?! Other than no one really wanting or being able to do anything like that, there's no "serious" country that even if it could who would risk its own stability just to get back at us, so STFU with that BS.

Sorry, you fail the history course. You will have to take it up next semester.

Nobody is able or willing? Uh, why don't you google "oil embargo", for starters. Have you not noticed that when there is increased friction with oil-selling nations (Venezuela, Iran, etc.) the price of oil immediately goes up?

It's funny you scold and encourage others to read economic or history books, but hubris has a tendency to blind its projector, so not surprising.

 

[TheNewbie]

Originally posted by: eits
it doesn't surprise me...

my parents have already started preparations to bring some of our family members from iran to the united states... they also paid money to the iranian government to get our relatives out of the service. in iran, whenever a boy turns 18, they have to do like 4 years of military service, unless you pay your way out (because that's what terrorist organization members do... they get drafted unwillingly, right? iran's military = 18-22 year old kids who don't care about the government who got forced into service = terrorist organization? what the fuck?). we recently got one of our cousins over and he's in the process of learning more english and trying to find a job. we're trying to bring more of our relatives over so our military doesn't kill them.

anyone see the irony?

WE'RE calling IRAN'S military a terrorist organization... some of you might not get the irony or might not want to get it because it might be a bit of a bitter pill to swallow.

It's post like this that I can sympathize with.
The guy is Iranian, and he loves his country like most people would like their countries. I can understand his pain and fear for his family and seeing what that fanatic regime of Iran is driving his beloved country into.

I also don't blame him for hating the U.S. we are a part of the problem for his people, and I think we should do as much as possible to make sure people like him (or his family in this case) don't get hurt as a result of what we need to do.

Eventually, once we get rid of that threat, Iran will be a better place for Iranians, not only for the rest of the world.

IIRC Iran used to be a thriving modern country under the Sha'a (if that's how it's spelled) until mid 70's when the Muslim revolution devastated that country.
I really hope Iran can become a normal country again once this is over.