New GeForce GTX 260 to Feature 216 Shaders - Beats Radeon 4870

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Griswold
Nvidia still doesnt get it. But they will, eventually..

They get it

they were just blindsided by 4850 .. they have no real answer to it yet, so they go after the 4870/4870-1GB .. then the X2

4870 1GB will be easily eclipsed by the new GT260+
- that is beyond obvious as they have plenty of headroom in clocking it up; Nvidia evidently erred by setting the 260's clocks so conservatively

and the new 280 will be out shortly, so no worries about a 260+ stepping on its new toes

Nvidia is gearing up to take AMD on and i don't see much coming from AMD that can counter it - till their own transition to the smaller process

BtW, my new HW - including a GTX280 arrives Tomorrow!
[see i knew not to get the 260 ]
i am hoping i can disable a TMU to approximate a 260; i couldn't do it the other way 'round]

 

[nitromullet]

The part about this I don't get and annoys me is the name. Why does NV continue to reuse the same names for slightly different products? With a small increase is shaders and price that places it between the current GTX 260 and GTX 280, isn't the obvious name for this card "GTX 270"?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Cookie Monster
IMO having those extra shaders + TMUs and other units enabled due to the extra TPC is better off than a product that has been clock bumped by say ~50MHz with the tag "Platinum Edition" or "Ultra Extreme" on them.

I'd rather see IC differences that translate into speed bumps similar to the 4000-series rather than the artificial self-imposed neutering NV has done for generations. Better PWM ICs, different/better RAM, better board components, better coolers, higher voltages, speed bins etc. all allow for actual differences in performance while adding value, without resorting to self-crippling of perfectly good parts.

Originally posted by: nitromullet
The part about this I don't get and annoys me is the name. Why does NV continue to reuse the same names for slightly different products? With a small increase is shaders and price that places it between the current GTX 260 and GTX 280, isn't the obvious name for this card "GTX 270"?

Agreed, unless they already have those designations ear-marked for a 55nm refresh. It makes more sense for a new name with the difference in price, unless they're trying to beef up the 260 brand image as well. For instance, you could have the following in 2 reviews and the lasting impression on the uninformed would be very different:

1) The GTX 270 outperforms the 4870 by 10%.

2) The new GTX 260 outperforms the 4870 by 10%.

Somewhat deceptive I suppose, but NV would probably be criticized either way. Either they have too many parts out there or they have too confusing naming conventions.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nitromullet
The part about this I don't get and annoys me is the name. Why does NV continue to reuse the same names for slightly different products? With a small increase is shaders and price that places it between the current GTX 260 and GTX 280, isn't the obvious name for this card "GTX 270"?

that would be reserved for the 260+ on the 55nm process = 270 .. a real change

isn't this one just a slightly faster '+' on the 65 nm process?

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: apoppin
BtW, my new HW - including a GTX280 arrives Tomorrow!
[see i knew not to get the 260 ]
i am hoping i can disable a TMU to approximate a 260; i couldn't do it the other way 'round]

Nice! What else are you replacing on your current rig? Will be interesting to see more 4870X2 vs. GTX 280 observations. Also keep in mind the GTX 260 will still be short in a few areas even if you're able to disable TPC units on the GTX 280 (I don't think NVstrap options are enabled on RT 2.10 for GT200 yet...). There's still 1 less 64-bit memory controller and 4 ROPs (and all the other transistors associated with that cluster) along with the 128MB of RAM. Another way you could approximate performance would be to adjust clockspeed.

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: nitromullet
The part about this I don't get and annoys me is the name. Why does NV continue to reuse the same names for slightly different products? With a small increase is shaders and price that places it between the current GTX 260 and GTX 280, isn't the obvious name for this card "GTX 270"?

Agreed, unless they already have those designations ear-marked for a 55nm refresh. It makes more sense for a new name with the difference in price, unless they're trying to beef up the 260 brand image as well. For instance, you could have the following in 2 reviews and the lasting impression on the uninformed would be very different:

1) The GTX 270 outperforms the 4870 by 10%.

2) The new GTX 260 outperforms the 4870 by 10%.

Somewhat deceptive I suppose, but NV would probably be criticized either way. Either they have too many parts out there or they have too confusing naming conventions.

"GTX 266" or "GTX 260+" then... whatever. They should just call it something different than "GTX 260". If not only for helping people differentiate products within their product line, but to help existing customers with resale. Ask a previous 8800GTS 320/640 owner how easy it is to sell the "old" version of a card.

Originally posted by: apoppin
that would be reserved for the 260+ on the 55nm process = 270 .. a real change

isn't this one just a slightly faster '+' on the 65 nm process?

The GTX 270 moniker is reserved for 55nm? Based on what precedence? The G92 core move to 55nm...? For the 9800GTX, they just added a "+". For the 8800GT, they made the 9800GT at 65mn, and now it looks like they are also making a 9800GT at 55nm with no change in name. NVIDIA's naming "convention" (and I use the term loosely) doesn't make any sense whatsoever. What's the benefit of them saving a name for a product that succeeds another in the market whose naming convention already doesn't make sense? It would make mores sense for them just call this card "GT200b 216SP 65nm", at least we'd know wtf they were talking about.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: apoppin
BtW, my new HW - including a GTX280 arrives Tomorrow!
[see i knew not to get the 260 ]
i am hoping i can disable a TMU to approximate a 260; i couldn't do it the other way 'round]

Nice! What else are you replacing on your current rig? Will be interesting to see more 4870X2 vs. GTX 280 observations. Also keep in mind the GTX 260 will still be short in a few areas even if you're able to disable TPC units on the GTX 280 (I don't think NVstrap options are enabled on RT 2.10 for GT200 yet...). There's still 1 less 64-bit memory controller and 4 ROPs (and all the other transistors associated with that cluster) along with the 128MB of RAM. Another way you could approximate performance would be to adjust clockspeed.

everything!

Asus x48 P5e Deluxe [flash to rampage]
2x2GB PC 8500
e8500 [not going with QC until Neha]

i am off to work .. but i am SO looking forward to reviewing them .. tomorrow =)

 

[nitromullet]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: apoppin
BtW, my new HW - including a GTX280 arrives Tomorrow!
[see i knew not to get the 260 ]
i am hoping i can disable a TMU to approximate a 260; i couldn't do it the other way 'round]

Nice! What else are you replacing on your current rig? Will be interesting to see more 4870X2 vs. GTX 280 observations. Also keep in mind the GTX 260 will still be short in a few areas even if you're able to disable TPC units on the GTX 280 (I don't think NVstrap options are enabled on RT 2.10 for GT200 yet...). There's still 1 less 64-bit memory controller and 4 ROPs (and all the other transistors associated with that cluster) along with the 128MB of RAM. Another way you could approximate performance would be to adjust clockspeed.

everything!

Asus x48 P5e Deluxe [flash to rampage]
2x2GB PC 8500
e8500 [not going with QC until Neha]

i am off to work .. but i am SO looking forward to reviewing them .. tomorrow =)

whoa! You gonna do a 4870 X2 / GTX 280 comparison, or did you just decide to go for the GTX 280 instead?

 

[rogue1979]

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: rogue1979

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Why did this: "New GeForce GTX 260 to Feature 216 Shaders - Beats Radeon 4870"

turn into this:

price fixing, anti-trust, sue, moral limits, cheating, tweaking not moral, US Law ???????

Aberforth, just don't post anymore. OMFG.

At the risk of being banned.... That's not a post becoming of a moderator.

That is why you should really learn to distinguish between a moderator post, and a member post. Either way, there was nothing wrong with it. If this is what he wants to turn threads into, then he shouldn't post. Period.

I think you need to distinguish between disagreeing and being downright rude.

The content of your response to Aberforth is fine, the way you said it definately leaves room for improvement. Same with your response to me.

If you wanna ban me for my post, that's fine, but I want to point out that it is no more rude than anything you have posted in this thread.

Moderators are for keeping the peace and enforcing rules, they should not be above them.

I am not here for argument, done with this thread. I have to take part of the blame for even saying anything, justified as it was, in retrospect it seemed destined to become unpleasant.

Sorry OP for getting off topic.

 

[blackangst1]

eh...MSRP combines with additional products in response to competition in a market where you have 25% share is now...price fixing anti trust? muahahahaha Better go after auto makers next.

Oh I know. Offer you product to retailers for a minimum price so you make a profit then lets retailers charge what they want. Oh wait...

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Genx87

This is completely laughable. Cheating because they revise their product line to better line up with the competition?

That depends on frequency of your product line- there is no uniformity and will confuse the stock holders. Like for example: Apple brings new products every year or so, they didn't release iPhone 2g and 3g in just two quarters. Now with nv, if this graphics card turns out to be true- what part of it will be competitive? only 24 extra shader processors? If that isn't competitive, how about the price or dx 10.1 support etc? So this makes everyone question the intentions of the company. And about price fixing, I think nv and it's partners work together more closely when it comes to price.

Apple developed the iPhone. The two pieces of hardware are not the same. This requires R&D costs which need to be recouped over the lifetime of the product. Nvidia has already paid the R&D on their piece of silicon. Adding and subtracting features\resources can be easily done because the chip is already designed and paid for. It is an apples and oranges comparison.

i dont understand the rest of your post. It doesnt make any sense what so ever.

Your last line isnt price fixing. Nvidia works with partners to give a level playing field for their entire list of vendors. They give vendors suggest ASP's and they may even have a contractual obligation to stay within guidelines. That isnt price fixing. Price fixing is when NV and AMD get together and predetermine a pricing structure to maximize the profits for both, while at the same eliminating competition.

 

[unr3al]

I am always one for competition, but this is really stupid. Looking at the GTX260 and GTX280 prices here in SA, I don't think we could survive any more price hikes. At least the ATi pricing is in line with what people pay overseas. I mean, $450 for a GTX260 is the best I've seen, vs $375 for an HD4870. C'mon, thats $75! Where will that go when the new ones are released?! If, with the new cards, I have to pay a $125 premium just to have a card that (at stock) SOMETIMES beats the cheaper option, I'll be needing a shrink. Or some useful way to spend my surplus money... And knowing SA, I think it would be closer to a $150 difference. So what if it can be overclocked to equal a GTX280? For the price premium I could add another gig of RAM plus some decent aftermarket cooling solution for an HD4870 and get similar overclocking results!

 

[Cheex]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: apoppin
BtW, my new HW - including a GTX280 arrives Tomorrow!
[see i knew not to get the 260 ]
i am hoping i can disable a TMU to approximate a 260; i couldn't do it the other way 'round]

Nice! What else are you replacing on your current rig? Will be interesting to see more 4870X2 vs. GTX 280 observations. Also keep in mind the GTX 260 will still be short in a few areas even if you're able to disable TPC units on the GTX 280 (I don't think NVstrap options are enabled on RT 2.10 for GT200 yet...). There's still 1 less 64-bit memory controller and 4 ROPs (and all the other transistors associated with that cluster) along with the 128MB of RAM. Another way you could approximate performance would be to adjust clockspeed.

everything!

Asus x48 P5e Deluxe [flash to rampage]
2x2GB PC 8500
e8500 [not going with QC until Neha]

i am off to work .. but i am SO looking forward to reviewing them .. tomorrow =)

whoa! You gonna do a 4870 X2 / GTX 280 comparison, or did you just decide to go for the GTX 280 instead?

He's gonna do a 4870 X2 vs GTX 280 comparison. We're also gonna review the ASUS P5E Deluxe X48.

 

[RussianSensation]

From a business perspective I don't see any problems with NV raising the price while improving performance on the 260. If they want to raise the price by $50, $75 or $90, that's up to them. Also, we can't estimate what the street price will be so it's hard to conclude what will be more attractive to consumers.

ATI can just as easily bring out 1GB 4870s for $$299-329 and lower the price of 512mb models to $279. For the average consumer the 4870 might be more enticing still. To dismiss that NV is just going to take away ATI's position without ATI responding is a bit premature imo.

Finally we haven't even touched on availability. 9800GTX+ was announced and I dont think anyone really paid any attention to it since it took so long to arrive into the channel despite roughly similar performance to 4850s. Hardly anyone recommends 9800GTX+ on these boards.

 

[Wreckage]

The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

As for "price fixing" ATI was the only company that got in trouble for this, so the blame lies there I would think.

 

[Mem]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

As for "price fixing" ATI was the only company that got in trouble for this, so the blame lies there I would think.

That's a personal opinion only,just like what I'm going to say which I think the 4870 is a better card then the 260.

 

[Pugnate]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
man, there is something seriously wrong with this company. They came up with GTX+ to beat 4850 and now this? In other words, bring two new tweaked cards just to destroy the competition and what about the existing customers? I hope someone files a anti-trust suit against them, they are making too many changes in each quarter.

Wow, what you said is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: Pugnate

Originally posted by: Aberforth
man, there is something seriously wrong with this company. They came up with GTX+ to beat 4850 and now this? In other words, bring two new tweaked cards just to destroy the competition and what about the existing customers? I hope someone files a anti-trust suit against them, they are making too many changes in each quarter.

Wow, what you said is absolutely ridiculous.

yes, as you can see others have said it. All nv users defend their investment so does the ati users. But in the end they fail to talk about the hard hitting truths making them ordinary customers who don't mind getting ripped.

 

[Creig]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

Better? Because it can do PhysX? The 4870 is definitely FASTER than a GTX260. And that is the most important criteria when comparing enthusiast caliber video cards.

 

[sourthings]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: keysplayr2003

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Aberforth
man, there is something seriously wrong with this company. They came up with GTX+ to beat 4850 and now this? In other words, bring two new tweaked cards just to destroy the competition and what about the existing customers? I hope someone files a anti-trust suit against them, they are making too many changes in each quarter.

A company improves their line to beat the competition and you are complaining? Anti-trust? I am assuming that was sarcasm. Nvidia owns about 25% of the market. Anti-trust is designed to break up companies with near 100% of the market.

not really, frequent price fixing, limited consumer protection will be called anti-trust in US and NV definitely qualifies for it. However, they won't get sued just for this- i mean there are many companies with this attitude. It only happens if they push everyones moral limits.

And finally, this isn't competition. This is almost cheating, a competitive product has more features at a reasonable price - so the customer will be the one to decide which ones the best not the company. Frequent price fixing or tweaking existing products to stay ahead with limited or no innovation or without proprietary logistics is definitely not moral according to US Law.

Why did this: "New GeForce GTX 260 to Feature 216 Shaders - Beats Radeon 4870"

turn into this:

price fixing, anti-trust, sue, moral limits, cheating, tweaking not moral, US Law ???????

Aberforth, just don't post anymore. OMFG.

I have every right to post and my first post wasn't off-topic. Maybe you shouldn't post, as a focus group member you definitely shouldn't post any marketing material.

Yeah, pretty much this. Since he's part of an nvidia marketing tactic, he really should be disallowed from offering opinions on video cards.

 

[sourthings]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

Better? Because it can do PhysX? The 4870 is definitely FASTER than a GTX260. And that is the most important criteria when comparing enthusiast caliber video cards.

But he can have fancy snowballs when he plays UT3, so clearly the 4870 beating the 260 in most every benchmark is unimportant ...

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

Better? Because it can do PhysX? The 4870 is definitely FASTER than a GTX260. And that is the most important criteria when comparing enthusiast caliber video cards.

PhysX and CUDA sure, but it's also better because it has more memory and overclocks better, thus giving it better performance.

http://www.hardocp.com/article...3KJpqJ/3W6YaXKJpqJ6WrY

 

[RussianSensation]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

Better? Because it can do PhysX? The 4870 is definitely FASTER than a GTX260. And that is the most important criteria when comparing enthusiast caliber video cards.

Creig, why do you even bother?

 

[WelshBloke]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

Better? Because it can do PhysX? The 4870 is definitely FASTER than a GTX260. And that is the most important criteria when comparing enthusiast caliber video cards.

PhysX and CUDA sure, but it's also better because it has more memory and overclocks better, thus giving it better performance.

http://www.hardocp.com/article...UzOSwsLGhlbnRodXNpYXN0

Why did you link to an overclocked GTX280 review?

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Wreckage
The 260 was already a better card than the 4870, this just makes it a true slam dunk.

Better? Because it can do PhysX? The 4870 is definitely FASTER than a GTX260. And that is the most important criteria when comparing enthusiast caliber video cards.

I sorta agree. I mean, when I don't have physx capability I don't feel I'm missing anything. No physx enabled game has made me feel that I am playing an inferior version at all.

Until then...well you know. Not spending more for less IMO.