New developments on stalled peace talks?

[EagleKeeper]

If the Pals are awarded a state (by what ever method), they will also have to accept responsiblity of what goes on within their borders.

Will Hamas accept that.

Israel may not be so accomindating when they are attacked from with the State of Palestine.

and the UN/world may do nothing when it is shown that it is from those ares taht trouble started.

Look what happened with Georgia and the other ares of the Soviet Union.

 

[piasabird]

Just as there are Palestinian Terrorists, there are also Isreali Terrorists who think they have a Holy responsibility to claim and hold the Holy Land.

 

[Lemon law]

If the Pals are awarded a state (by what ever method), they will also have to accept responsiblity of what goes on within their borders.

Will Hamas accept that.

Israel may not be so accomindating when they are attacked from with the State of Palestine.

and the UN/world may do nothing when it is shown that it is from those ares taht trouble started.

Look what happened with Georgia and the other ares of the Soviet Union.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why, Common Courtesy are you so obsessed about Hamas? A group that only recently formed, and a group that only formed after Fatah failed to deliver a Palestinian State.

And given the fact the Hamas won a free and democratic election in Gaza only should tell us two things. (1) The Palestinian people are trying some violence as a tactic in Gaza and total non violence as a tactic in the West Bank. Neither tactic works with Israel. (2) Since Hamas won a democratic election in Gaza means the people of Gaza can pick and choose their leadership. And if some other group or some other tactic delivers the bacon for Gaza also, the people of Gaza are likely to give Hamas the old heave ho. In politics, any ruling group must deliver or risk being displaced by groups that offer a better future. Its just happened in the USA as the dems got creamed, and if the GOP does not deliver, the GOP will get creamed in 2012. Meanwhile Israel uses far more violence than Hamas does.

When the UN formed the State of Israel in 1948, a future Palestinian State was also promised.

I certainly do not believe it was unjust to form a State of Israel even if its conduct is questionable now, but the major injustice is now regarding a Palestinian State.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I have no problem with a Palestinian state.

I have a problem with a Palestinian state that has in it's charter(s) the stated intent of the destruction of Israel.

I have a problem where the leadership of the Palestinian groups choose to turn blind eyes toward violence and actively encourage it toward Israel.

I have a problem where the Palestinian leadership(s) choose to think that the UN will protect them from repercusuions when they choose to cause trouble time and time again even after stating that they will no longer do so.

What I desire is a Palestinian state that WANTS to coexist with Israel on all fronts and will publically renounce terrorism against Israel.

Can the Pals deliver such? Will they want to?

 

[JEDIYoda]

I have no problem with a Palestinian state.

I have a problem with a Palestinian state that has in it's charter(s) the stated intent of the destruction of Israel.

I have a problem where the leadership of the Palestinian groups choose to turn blind eyes toward violence and actively encourage it toward Israel.

I have a problem where the Palestinian leadership(s) choose to think that the UN will protect them from repercusuions when they choose to cause trouble time and time again even after stating that they will no longer do so.

What I desire is a Palestinian state that WANTS to coexist with Israel on all fronts and will publically renounce terrorism against Israel.

Can the Pals deliver such? Will they want to?

All excellent points!!
Yet the pin heads of this world will try to adress your questions by asking questions of their own instead of directly addressing your concerns.

The fact is all of us would like to see the Palestinians have their own state.
But you raise very valid points and questions concerning the leadership of the Palestinians who in their very charter have a stated goal of the destruction of Israel......

 

[Lemon law]

I have no problem with a Palestinian state.

I have a problem with a Palestinian state that has in it's charter(s) the stated intent of the destruction of Israel.

I have a problem where the leadership of the Palestinian groups choose to turn blind eyes toward violence and actively encourage it toward Israel.

I have a problem where the Palestinian leadership(s) choose to think that the UN will protect them from repercusuions when they choose to cause trouble time and time again even after stating that they will no longer do so.

What I desire is a Palestinian state that WANTS to coexist with Israel on all fronts and will publically renounce terrorism against Israel.

Can the Pals deliver such? Will they want to?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't be a kook Common Courtesy, when a newly minted State us formed, there is and should not be a Lithmus test that that State will not in future go to war with its neighbors
or engage in certain behaviors. Its just assumed that rational states behave rationally or they suffer the consequences.

But to further reassure you Common Courtesy, part of the formation of a Palestinian State negotiations are now centering on forming an international peacekeeping force on the Palestinian Jordanian border.

In the event of the formation of a Palestinian State may also come problems with Israeli settlers left on the Palestinian side of the border. Will Israeli terrorists continue to engage in acts of terrorism? Will they want to stop trying to drag Israel into another war with a Palestinian State?

And we will also have to deal with Stateless terrorists who will continue to operate in the mid-east and all over the world. All we can do is assume, if the injustices are reduced, the motivation for terrorism is reduced.

 

[Zebo]

And given the fact the Hamas won a free and democratic election in Gaza only should tell us two things.

Tells me again how stupid Bush was with his view that democratic elections are, by definition, a good thing. Hamas, a terrorist org best known for blowing up civilian buses, won but without fundamental or human basic rights, something like a Constitution provides, it's two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. That's why you get machine gunning of Fatah in the streets after, why gays and Christians and alcohol sellers are slaughtered in post Saddam Iraq.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL
What about Gaza. who is going to protect that area and why should they.
What a country does down the road is inthe future and for the crystal ball/looney predictors.
What a proposed country states in the process of being accepted as a country says a lot.
At present, the Palestinians have not shown the capacity to be rational.

There should be no need for UN troops if the Palestinians are serious about peace.
As a state, they should be able to secure their borders IF THEY CHOOSE TO.

While there are some Israeli settleres that do not like to prospect of giving up land to the Pals; you have the Pal leadership itself (via elections and extermination) that is against the very existance of Israel.

If you have a Palestinian state, then Egypt has no need for an embargo. Hamas can get all the advance weaponry that Iran is willing to provide for use against Israel. And you really think that such would be used for defensive purposes only?

When Israel was formed; she was attacked immediately by her Arab neighbors to "protect" the Palestinians. The world did not lift a finger in protest.
Maybe, Israel should then attack the Palestinian State to "protect" the settlers the first time she gets attacked or even before hand.

 

[Lemon law]

Again Common Courtesy you have zero understanding of the issues here as you assume everything must be measured by what is best for Israel.

Rather than what is most FAIR to all parties concerned.

Even before Hitler rose to power in 1933, Israeli terrorists were the dominant terrorist actor in the former British Mandate. While the Palestinians were basically content to live in a land where they had rights and property as they had for hundreds of years.

Meanwhile Hitler started WW2, and one of its daughter products was the systematic arrest and captivity of Jews in Europe. As they were deprived of Human rights, property, and in the case of many, their lives as well.

After WW2 Europe had a problem, millions of penny less Jewish refugees no one wanted.
But still, the Jews were victims of WW2 and deserved to be made whole.

But in a wonderful example of NIMBY, they decided the British Mandate of Palestine was the place to solve the Jewish refugee problem. And if Israel had done what it promised and gave Palestinian equal rights in the newly formed 1948 State of Israel, we would not be in this mid-east mess now.

Because the newly freed Jews did exactly what Hitler did to them, except it was Palestinians that were the victims being robbed of their property and human rights, and often their lives also.

Gee its just so hard to understand, the Palestinians do not recognize the legitimacy of a
an Israeli State that robbed them of their property, liberty, and human rights.

That 1948 day of UN recognition may be cerebrated in Israel, but it day of national disaster for Palestinians.

So in solving the Jewish refugee problem in 1948, we create an even bigger Palestinian refugee problem. And the madness of Hitler lasted only 12 years, yet Israeli hereditary discrimination against Palestinians has lasted 62 years and counting.

Common Courtesy, I have watched you try everything to defend Israeli behavior, but right now its like defending Hitler, it simply can't be done in any rational way.

That does not mean we must demonize Israel, it means we have to solve the Palestinian refugee problem now. And since Israel has been the biggest beneficiaries of stealing Palestinian land, they must pay the biggest price.

 

[EagleKeeper]

The problem was not Jews, nor was it the local Palestinians - it was the Arab nations that wanted to destroy Israel and those Palestinians that sided with the Arabs.
There were problems on boths sides prior to the birth of Israel - the British also did not help. But those things could have been worked out based on state boundaries - it was solved after the end of the first war. You had the Palestinians under Egypt and Trans-Jordan control and the Jews under Israeli control.

Had the Arabs left the new state of Israel alone; there would not have been such a Paletinian issue.

But, no; the Arabs & Palestinians wanted it all for themselves. Every time they tried to fix "their" problem, they made it worse.

And those two groups have been the biggest obstacle toward the elusive peace that you desire. Until they are willing to accept that Israel should be allowed to exist there will be no true peace. Only mistrust.

You talk about FAIR now for the Palestinians. They did not seem to be concerned about FAIR for 30+ years. It was all for ME

 

[dali71]

/anti-Semitic drivel

 

[JEDIYoda]

Again Common Courtesy you have zero understanding of the issues here as you assume everything must be measured by what is best for Israel.

Rather than what is most FAIR to all parties concerned.

Even before Hitler rose to power in 1933, Israeli terrorists were the dominant terrorist actor in the former British Mandate. While the Palestinians were basically content to live in a land where they had rights and property as they had for hundreds of years.

Meanwhile Hitler started WW2, and one of its daughter products was the systematic arrest and captivity of Jews in Europe. As they were deprived of Human rights, property, and in the case of many, their lives as well.

After WW2 Europe had a problem, millions of penny less Jewish refugees no one wanted.
But still, the Jews were victims of WW2 and deserved to be made whole.

But in a wonderful example of NIMBY, they decided the British Mandate of Palestine was the place to solve the Jewish refugee problem. And if Israel had done what it promised and gave Palestinian equal rights in the newly formed 1948 State of Israel, we would not be in this mid-east mess now.

Because the newly freed Jews did exactly what Hitler did to them, except it was Palestinians that were the victims being robbed of their property and human rights, and often their lives also.

Gee its just so hard to understand, the Palestinians do not recognize the legitimacy of a
an Israeli State that robbed them of their property, liberty, and human rights.

That 1948 day of UN recognition may be cerebrated in Israel, but it day of national disaster for Palestinians.

So in solving the Jewish refugee problem in 1948, we create an even bigger Palestinian refugee problem. And the madness of Hitler lasted only 12 years, yet Israeli hereditary discrimination against Palestinians has lasted 62 years and counting.

Common Courtesy, I have watched you try everything to defend Israeli behavior, but right now its like defending Hitler, it simply can't be done in any rational way.

That does not mean we must demonize Israel, it means we have to solve the Palestinian refugee problem now. And since Israel has been the biggest beneficiaries of stealing Palestinian land, they must pay the biggest price.

Again state the obvious...your pro-Palestinian. You believe Israel should be like the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving.....

Also who supplies you your mushrooms???

 

[Lemon law]

Again state the obvious...your pro-Palestinian. You believe Israel should be like the gift that keeps on giving and giving and giving.....

Also who supplies you your mushrooms???

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well this is indeed a bit of progress by JediYoda, at least he is not maintaining I must be Palestinian by birth.

As for my mushroom supplier, its my American values, you all know the drill, separation of church and State, equal rights for all native born citizens, and especially on NO heritary discrimination based by birth on race, religion, or creed? Something we could all support in an Israeli state if Israel subscribed to those values, but sadly Israeli now more resembles Nazi Germany values.

It was wrong wrong wrong when Hitler discriminated against Jews on the basis of heritity, and its wrong wrong wrong when the nation of Israel does the same things to Palestinians.
How hard is that to understand JediYoda?

There is no shortage of my Mushrooms JediYoda, maybe you should eat a few of mine, you can find all you can eat in American constitutional values.

Tell me again why my Mushrooms are inferior to the Mushrooms of discrimination and hatred you eat. As your mentor says, come out from the dark side.

 

[dali71]

 

[Lemon law]

Quite a wonderous cartoon Dali, as the Palestinian children look on in wonder, but given the way Israeli treats those same Palestinian children of Gaza, there is zero chance Israel will sell its racial policies to the children of Gaza.

The larger world and much of Israel realizes that the Israeli blockade of Gaza has dome nothing but to insure the survival of the Hamas Government in Gaza. And the only reason Egypt helps the Israeli blockade is to prevent Gaza residents from fleeing in mass
to Egypt.

Meanwhile Israel hopes the Palestinian people will grow gills and swim away, while all surrounding Arab nations correctly maintain the Palestinian people and their plight is an Israeli responsibility. After all. Israel stole their land, tossed them into concentration camps, why should the Arabs be responsible for the Palestinian victims of Israeli thievery? Meanwhile there is that right to return issue that WILL NEVER GO AWAY.

And while Dali is busily demonizing Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah, all those organizations do a steller job of helping Palestinians and Lebanese to survive meanwhile. While Israel acts like aholes and pigs.

If Israel ever hopes to win acceptance in the mid-east, they have a 100% counterproductive way to achive that.

 

[dali71]

And while Dali is busily demonizing Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah, all those organizations do a steller job of helping Palestinians and Lebanese to survive meanwhile. While Israel acts like aholes and pigs.

Except for the women and children that they use as suicide bombers and human shields.

 

[Lemon law]

Except for the women and children that they use as suicide bombers and human shields.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly how many has that been lately? Now that Palestinians and stateless terrorist have rocket technology, they have ceased using those suicide bomber tactics years ago. But as we see, Israeli propaganda lines never die, and they don't even slowly fade away.

Meanwhile while Israeli propagandists decry the futility of Suicide bombing, the Israeli air force has compiled a long list of Israeli pilots willing to die in a one way trip to bomb Iran.

But surely the high point of Israeli civilization were those Israeli plane pilots who bombed helpless Lebanese civilians, men women, children, cars and bridges in the 2005 Israeli rape of Lebanon. And Israel still has numerous war crime charges pending over its 2008 rape of Gaza.

Get em clue Dali, the Israeli self portrait Israeli has been painting in the past decade is looking uglier by the minute. And the only nation Israel half way fools anymore is the USA.

Nor should we think Israel is a homogeneous nation, at least 40% of Israelis want a just peace, and soon, very soon, Israeli will have to choose supporting bat shit crazy Israeli settler parties or universal world condemnation.

As for Bozo Nertanyuhu and his government, the sooner his government falls, the better off the entire world will be.

 

[EagleKeeper]

You seem to conviently ignore why Israel went into Lebanon and Gaza.

It was not for the rape of innocent women and children.

It was to get rid of those that felt women and children would work well as a moral barrier against Israel when actions were taken against Israel.


Hezbollah and Hamas both hid out among the civilians and used civilian areas to store munitions and attack troops.

Both areas accepted those militants as a functioning part of their society and knew that they would be targets if Israel retaliated.

A calculated gamble and it was lost both times.

Maybe if Hezbollah and Hamas had left Israel alone, there would have been no "rape"

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

It's fascinating to see someone defending a national charter that mandates the destruction of a nation especially when that country must approve it. That's crazy talk.

 

[EagleKeeper]

LL

You have sidestepped AGAIN the questions raised in post #26

the gist is

The Pals want a state, but do not want the responsibility for a state and have not demonstrated the ability to be responsibile.
What should be done?