New debt ceiling to be hit in Feb

[theeedude]

Borrow and spend to spur borrowing and spending to solve the problems brought on by too much borrowing and spending.

Sure sounds like a rational plan to me....

What's yours? Cut spending now and have the economy collapse?

 

[LumbergTech]

Perhaps one shouldn't be so quick to scream hypocrisy when they happen to live in a glass house.

Deficits were increasing bad under Bush and now increasing worse under Obama. Politics aside...bottomline you have to answer the fundamental question...are these current and projected deficits a concern or not? If so, maybe then we should be debating and demanding appropriate actions from our current elected government representatives instead of playing partisan blame games. No?

the problem is that neither side provides a real alternative and theyre both pointing fingers..so it is pointless discussion

 

[Modelworks]

Doy! Can you read? We are only talking about the one thing, government stimulus when the economy tanks. The wisdom of how to spend the money is a totally different question. The consensus was that government stimulus was necessary to avoid disaster. And that is still the consensus opinion among the economic community.

God help us if that community has any more brilliant ideas.

 

[drebo]

Republicans, Democrats...who cares who spends it, it's all bad.

$1.9 trillion dollars...that's enough to give EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY $45,000. The federal government certainly hasn't done $45,000 of good for me.

You know what would spur the economy a shit ton more than any government spending? GIVE THE $45,000 AWAY TO EVERYONE! There's your economic stimulus. Of course, that'll just create more bubbles...just like it will when the government does it.

Spending beyond your means is just as bad for the government as it is for private citizens. Fiscal responsibility is the ONLY way out of this mess. The recession wasn't created by a stale economy...it was created by an OVERACTIVE economy. And, of course Obama's advisors are going to tell him to spend money...that's why he chose them as advisors. There is no logical reason for this $1.9 trillion increase. None what so ever.

Yes, I'm mad. Yes, I may not be entirely rational. But, that's my fucking money and I don't agree with the government pissing it the fuck away.

 

[Moonbeam]

God help us if that community has any more brilliant ideas.

Like what the fuck do you know? These are some of the best minds on the planet. You are a nobody, like me. Try to understand that when your opinion, based on nothing much, conflicts with folk who have spent a lifetime studying economics, it is you who is the idiot, not them. How did you ever get to be such an arrogant prick?

 

[Modelworks]

Spending beyond your means is just as bad for the government as it is for private citizens. Fiscal responsibility is the ONLY way out of this mess. The recession wasn't created by a stale economy...it was created by an OVERACTIVE economy. And, of course Obama's advisors are going to tell him to spend money...that's why he chose them as advisors. There is no logical reason for this $1.9 trillion increase. None what so ever.

Yes, I'm mad. Yes, I may not be entirely rational. But, that's my fucking money and I don't agree with the government pissing it the fuck away.

Agree 100%. The government needs to learn a new word "NO"

 

[Moonbeam]

What's yours? Cut spending now and have the economy collapse?

You are talking to a dunce. He can't figure out why coffee cools down when it sits and ice melts.

 

[Modelworks]

Like what the fuck do you know? These are some of the best minds on the planet. You are a nobody, like me. Try to understand that when your opinion, based on nothing much, conflicts with folk who have spent a lifetime studying economics, it is you who is the idiot, not them. How did you ever get to be such an arrogant prick?

I know that if I do not have money to pay for what I already owe I should not spend more money. Everything I have I own ,100% debt free with a home and lots of land , I must be doing something right.
Commons sense is not your forte, obviously.

 

[Moonbeam]

Republicans, Democrats...who cares who spends it, it's all bad.

$1.9 trillion dollars...that's enough to give EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY $45,000. The federal government certainly hasn't done $45,000 of good for me.

You know what would spur the economy a shit ton more than any government spending? GIVE THE $45,000 AWAY TO EVERYONE! There's your economic stimulus. Of course, that'll just create more bubbles...just like it will when the government does it.

Spending beyond your means is just as bad for the government as it is for private citizens. Fiscal responsibility is the ONLY way out of this mess. The recession wasn't created by a stale economy...it was created by an OVERACTIVE economy. And, of course Obama's advisors are going to tell him to spend money...that's why he chose them as advisors. There is no logical reason for this $1.9 trillion increase. None what so ever.

Yes, I'm mad. Yes, I may not be entirely rational. But, that's my fucking money and I don't agree with the government pissing it the fuck away.

You may not be entirely rational? Hehehehehehe

 

[xj0hnx]

You are in denial or have no clue if you don't realize it would have been a lot worse without this deficit spending. If anything he's not spending enough.

Really? Let me ask you this. you owe $100 for a bill, you borrow $200, pay your bill and buy some new shoes, now that bill comes due again, as well as the bill for the money you borrowed to pay it the first time, so hey borrow $400 this time, pay you $100 bill, buy even more new shoes, and a little bit towards the first debt, rinse, repeat for years ... You'll NEVER get out of debt this way ...never. Stop buying the new shoes, yea, your feet might hurt, and you won't look as stylist, but it just has to be done. Teh problem is that no one in Washington is accountable for the money they borrow and spend, dem's, rep's, they just spend and spend because 1) it is't their money, 2) There's nothing to stop them, especially if they can get their special interest to justify it. It's the very definition of stupidity.

 

[woolfe9999]

Republicans, Democrats...who cares who spends it, it's all bad.

$1.9 trillion dollars...that's enough to give EVERYONE IN THE COUNTRY $45,000. The federal government certainly hasn't done $45,000 of good for me.

You know what would spur the economy a shit ton more than any government spending? GIVE THE $45,000 AWAY TO EVERYONE! There's your economic stimulus. Of course, that'll just create more bubbles...just like it will when the government does it.

Spending beyond your means is just as bad for the government as it is for private citizens. Fiscal responsibility is the ONLY way out of this mess. The recession wasn't created by a stale economy...it was created by an OVERACTIVE economy. And, of course Obama's advisors are going to tell him to spend money...that's why he chose them as advisors. There is no logical reason for this $1.9 trillion increase. None what so ever.

Yes, I'm mad. Yes, I may not be entirely rational. But, that's my fucking money and I don't agree with the government pissing it the fuck away.

There is no logical reason for it, except for the logical reasons given by the people who know a thousand fold more about economics than you do. Incidentally, if you let a recession persist for years and years on end, it does more to expand the deficit than spending your way out of it, because recessions shrink the revenue base.

Other than that, I share your general populist rage about deficit spending. Huge efforts will need to be made to curb spending in the very near future, and probably before we are totally out of the woods with the recession. However, this year is a tad premature.

- wolf

 

[Triumph]

You are in denial or have no clue if you don't realize it would have been a lot worse without this deficit spending. If anything he's not spending enough.

Look, I'm not against deficit spending, as a generalized idea, an entity can go into debt to spur wealth when they have a solid economic basis to fall back on. IE buying a house, getting a student loan (at least for a degree in something worthwhile, not a degree in drinking or finding yourself), etc. But there HAS TO BE A LIMIT. Where is it to you? To me it is somewhere short of, oh I don't know, 1.56 trillion dollars.

Deficit spending like this is akin to a crack whore getting her fix. Sure it may make you feel better, but it doesn't fix any fundamental problems. We need sustainable jobs and sustainable industries, not bubbles. You could take that $1.56 trillion and pay every person $45,000 to fold paper napkins for a year. Hurray, now you've got 0% unemployment! But what have you really fixed?

 

[Robor]

There is no logical reason for it, except for the logical reasons given by the people who know a thousand fold more about economics than you do. Incidentally, if you let a recession persist for years and years on end, it does more to expand the deficit than spending your way out of it, because recessions shrink the revenue base.

Other than that, I share your general populist rage about deficit spending. Huge efforts will need to be made to curb spending in the very near future, and probably before we are totally out of the woods with the recession. However, this year is a tad premature.

- wolf

This needs to be read by all of the armchair economists who think their Economics 101 class in college 20 years ago somehow makes them an expert.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Look, I'm not against deficit spending, as a generalized idea, an entity can go into debt to spur wealth when they have a solid economic basis to fall back on. IE buying a house, getting a student loan (at least for a degree in something worthwhile, not a degree in drinking or finding yourself), etc. But there HAS TO BE A LIMIT. Where is it to you? To me it is somewhere short of, oh I don't know, 1.56 trillion dollars.

Deficit spending like this is akin to a crack whore getting her fix. Sure it may make you feel better, but it doesn't fix any fundamental problems. We need sustainable jobs and sustainable industries, not bubbles. You could take that $1.56 trillion and pay every person $45,000 to fold paper napkins for a year. Hurray, now you've got 0% unemployment! But what have you really fixed?

That's my complaint. AIG just gave out another round of bonuses. There was talk of taxing banks, but at least as far as credit cards go, they aren't the ones who loan the money. They are a clearing house of sorts. Nothing done there.

Then we have a ton of mandated programs such as Medicaid which is broken.


So much needs to be fixed, yet the emphasis is to ignore the severe problems we have and institute new programs. Where is reform? The word is unknown in DC.

There's a difference between a responsible household borrowing in tough times and a drunken sailor spending his last several months pay on shore leave. Our government certainly is the latter.

We do not hold our representatives accountable to the degree which they ought to be.

 

[Mursilis]

Like what the fuck do you know? These are some of the best minds on the planet. You are a nobody, like me. Try to understand that when your opinion, based on nothing much, conflicts with folk who have spent a lifetime studying economics, it is you who is the idiot, not them. How did you ever get to be such an arrogant prick?

Great minds are still human minds, and still have weaknesses and blind spots. Most of the big banks that were near collapse in 2008 had great minds (according to the conventional wisdom) running them, and they still had to be bailed out by the government. Great minds fail every day; the only difference is, their failure tends to be more spectacular.

 

[Mursilis]

We do not hold our representatives accountable to the degree which they ought to be.

Exactly, and until we do, we can't blame the political class for doing what we elected them to do - focus on the short-term at the expense of the long-term.

 

[rudder]

Hey shit head, he went with the consensus opinion, and not with your fucking imagined revolutionary drivel.

Are all hippies this mean?

Note to self: start throwing the word fuck[/] around more.. especially when replying to stressed out moonbeams living in the far reaches of their fantasy universes.

You do realize it was the obama administration that said the consensus among economists was that there was a need for a stimulus package... even when the top economists in the country signed a petition against the stimulus package and financial bailout early on in his presidency.

If you are going to believe everything that comes out of the white house and spout it off as the gospel of truth... then it would be safe to say, I truly believe, that you are the shit headed one.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Doy! Can you read? We are only talking about the one thing, government stimulus when the economy tanks. The wisdom of how to spend the money is a totally different question. The consensus was that government stimulus was necessary to avoid disaster. And that is still the consensus opinion among the economic community.

I'm glad to see that you have no doubts that we're doing the right thing spending so much money on pork...err I mean 'stimulus'. After all...anybody who disagrees with today's consensus are "stupid brain-dead fucking assholes"....everybody knows this.

Tell me...what's the economic community's consensus on the downstream impact of historically unparalleled deficit spending on our children?

 

[QuantumPion]

I'm glad to see that you have no doubts that we're doing the right thing spending so much money on pork...err I mean 'stimulus'. After all...anybody who disagrees with today's consensus are "stupid brain-dead fucking assholes"....everybody knows this.

Tell me...what's the economic community's consensus on the downstream impact of historically unparalleled deficit spending on our children?

According to this guy, the complete collapse of the global economy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Great minds are still human minds, and still have weaknesses and blind spots. Most of the big banks that were near collapse in 2008 had great minds (according to the conventional wisdom) running them, and they still had to be bailed out by the government. Great minds fail every day; the only difference is, their failure tends to be more spectacular.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything. Nobody is going to listen to fools because great minds can err. Every sensible politician is going to listen to the authorities. Nothing is perfect. What was done was the best that could be conceived in the time available to do it. All you idiots with your 20 20 hindsight and alternate realities are bitching about the best execution that was available according to the pros. What we know is that we seem to be recovering and there was no depression. We will never know if another plan would have worked better but that won't prevent these morons from having their stupid opinions.

 

[theeedude]

Look, I'm not against deficit spending, as a generalized idea, an entity can go into debt to spur wealth when they have a solid economic basis to fall back on. IE buying a house, getting a student loan (at least for a degree in something worthwhile, not a degree in drinking or finding yourself), etc. But there HAS TO BE A LIMIT. Where is it to you? To me it is somewhere short of, oh I don't know, 1.56 trillion dollars.

Deficit spending like this is akin to a crack whore getting her fix. Sure it may make you feel better, but it doesn't fix any fundamental problems. We need sustainable jobs and sustainable industries, not bubbles. You could take that $1.56 trillion and pay every person $45,000 to fold paper napkins for a year. Hurray, now you've got 0% unemployment! But what have you really fixed?

Sure, there is a limit, but we have 10% unemployment, we are going to spend money either way. It's not like we are cutting taxes to create huge deficits in good times like Republicans like to do. We are creating deficits to keep economy from collapsing. 1.56 trillion is 10% of our GDP. If you are making 40K get laid off and rack up 4K worth of debt while looking for work, it's not the end of the world.

 

[Moonbeam]

Exactly, and until we do, we can't blame the political class for doing what we elected them to do - focus on the short-term at the expense of the long-term.

As you can plainly see in this thread, you can blame anybody for anything. What you mean is there can be no rational blame, just as there can be no rational blame to Obama for going with the experts.

 

[Moonbeam]

Exclusive: Obama stimulus reduced our pain, experts say
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By Paul Wiseman and Barbara Hansen, USA TODAY
President Obama's stimulus package saved jobs — but the government still needs to do more to breathe life into the economy, according to USA TODAY's quarterly survey of 50 economists.
Unemployment would have hit 10.8% — higher than December's 10% rate — without Obama's $787 billion stimulus program, according to the economists' median estimate. The difference would translate into another 1.2 million lost jobs.


BUSINESS SURVEY: Slow recovery continues
RECOVERY WATCH: Tracking the economy; see VIDEO
JOBS OUTLOOK: Latest data for all states, 384 metros

But almost two-thirds of the economists said the government should do more to spur job growth. Suggestions included suspending payroll taxes for Social Security and Medicare, increasing spending on infrastructure, enacting a flat tax on income and extending jobless benefits.

The economists expect the jobless rate to remain in double digits until the third quarter.

David Berson, chief economist at PMI Group, worries that the housing market and the economy will suffer when the government's tax credit to first-time home buyers expires in April and the Fed stops supporting the housing market by purchasing mortgage-backed securities by March 31.

Bill Cheney, chief economist at John Hancock Financial Services, is relatively optimistic. He sees unemployment falling to 8.9% by the fourth quarter of this year. Cheney says other economists are "nervous Nellies," shell-shocked by the length and depth of this downturn. They've forgotten that "the deeper the recession, the faster you come out of it."

But Diane Swonk, chief economist at Mesirow Financial, says creating jobs is tougher than it was the last time unemployment passed 10% in the early '80s. The reason: The 1981-82 recession was engineered by the Federal Reserve to tame inflation through high interest rates. The Fed brought the economy back simply by reversing course and cutting rates.

This time, the Fed has pushed short-term rates to near zero and has flooded markets with money. But the financial system is so damaged by the Wall Street meltdown that it isn't converting easy money into loans and economic growth: "It's like the Fed is dropping money from a helicopter and it's getting caught in the trees," Swonk says.

The economists don't expect Fed chief Ben Bernanke to take his foot off the accelerator — and push rates up — until the third quarter. So they don't expect any change in the Fed's zero-interest-rate policy when its Open Market Committee meets Tuesday and Wednesday.

"Bernanke and his colleagues are very committed to doing the right thing," Cheney says. They learned from Japan's long 1990s slump, during which policymakers kept declaring premature victory and raising rates and taxes: "It's really important not to snuff out a recovery before it gets going."

 

[Moonbeam]

According to this guy, the complete collapse of the global economy.

AN ECONOMIST known as the "Merchant of Gloom" will have to walk from Canberra to the top of Australia's highest mountain after losing a bet about the resiliency of Australian house prices.

Last November, University of Western Sydney associate professor of economics and finance Steve Keen made a high-profile bet with Macquarie Group interest rate strategist Rory Robertson.

The two parts of the bet were that house prices would tank by the end of 2009 and that house prices would fall 40 per cent from their all-time high within 15 years.

The loser of the bet would have to make the more than 200km trek from Canberra to the top of Mount Kosciuszko wearing a T-shirt that says "I was hopelessly wrong on house prices! Ask me how."

House prices are now at an all-time new high, Mr Robertson said in a statement.

"For fun, if Australian house prices ever fall by 40 per cent from any peak in my lifetime, I will follow in Dr Keen's footsteps," Mr Robertson said.

"Similarly, if Dr Keen proves the existence of the Loch Ness Monster, I will take the walk."

 

[Moonbeam]

Steve Keen: "Bernanke is a leading member of the "neoclassical" school of economic thought that dominates the academic economics profession........."

Well fuck, I guess Obama listened to the wrong people, the folk who dominate the profession. Shit, who would have thought.