New cretive drivers and drm..the final straw

[Adrian Tung]

Originally posted by: Linux23
I think this issue is similar to what i was experiencing.

I decided to download the new SB Live XP drivers from Creative's website last week. I installed the new drivers, rebooted, and decided to play a DVD and hookup the SPDIF out to my 5.1 Sony Receiver. Turned on PowerDVD and put in a DVD and all of a sudden, no Dolby Digital 5.1 sound. I booted into Win2K which had the old SB Live drivers, turned on PowerDVD, and sure enough it was sending the 5.1 bit stream to my receiver.

Booted back into XP and uninstalled the XP Live drivers, and after the reboot, opened PowerDVD again, and voila, i got sound. It had to have been those new drivers that was shutting down the SPDIF port when playing a DVD movie with 5.1 sound.

If that is the case, my next Sound card will not be from Creative. Has anyone here experienced this issue?

Man, that sux! I too use optical SPDIF output when watching DVDs, it's a good thing that I'm not as update-crazy as I used to be otherwise I'd have this kind of sh1t affecting me as well.

You said it man, my next sound card will not be from Creative too. :|


🙂atwl

 

[ripthesystem]

DRM can't be implemented into any currently available format like a standard CD because it would render every player obsolete.

And so when that comes around what will we have to do? Buy a DRM compatible player/hardware.. which is what they are pushing for- hardware and media that must be in compliance with the software, thus eliminating user choice and fair use.

The original intention of DRM was to create a secure standard that could be used for online sales/transmission. As of this point I haven't seen anyone using it. I think this whole DRM thing is being blown way out of proportion due to the fact I don't see where the market is for it or how they plan on creating one. Without a market it will disappear like Divx (not the codec).

I don't see how you cannot see anyone starting to use it. Isn't this what this thread is about? They are slowly implementing pieces of the puzzle that only affect a small portion of the users (see the original poster) and eventually every thing else will follow suit. The market for it isn't for us- it's for the corporations. As soon as you start calling off the big names (Intel, AMD, Microsoft, Creative, 3com, et. al) you have the whole market right there. This isn't some marketing ploy that they have to convince us to buy into.. though do any reading on Palladium and they're talking about it like an average users dream come true and the average Joe doesn't have a clue what the dream even is..

Just my 2 cents
ripthesystem

 

[Tanked]

All copy protection measures are destined to fail. Media companies should be finding ways to make people want to buy their media, not restricting its use. Almost all (if not all) copy-preventive measures in the past have been foiled.

Remember when VCRs came out? Media companies were complaining that "Nobody will go to a theater or buy movies when you can just copy them!" Look how wrong they were.

I am going to resist this restriction software as long as I possibly can - I legitimately buy almost all of my games and music anyway, but I don't want an overseer telling me what I can and can't do with my own computer. It is this reason I have not upgraded to Windows XP...I'm still using good ol' Windows 98SE.

 

[Accord99]

Originally posted by: Linux23
I think this issue is similar to what i was experiencing.

I decided to download the new SB Live XP drivers from Creative's website last week. I installed the new drivers, rebooted, and decided to play a DVD and hookup the SPDIF out to my 5.1 Sony Receiver. Turned on PowerDVD and put in a DVD and all of a sudden, no Dolby Digital 5.1 sound. I booted into Win2K which had the old SB Live drivers, turned on PowerDVD, and sure enough it was sending the 5.1 bit stream to my receiver.

Booted back into XP and uninstalled the XP Live drivers, and after the reboot, opened PowerDVD again, and voila, i got sound. It had to have been those new drivers that was shutting down the SPDIF port when playing a DVD movie with 5.1 sound.

If that is the case, my next Sound card will not be from Creative. Has anyone here experienced this issue?

No problems here, with a SBLive Value and the latest XP drivers from Creative and using WinDVD.

 

[Pariah]

"And so when that comes around what will we have to do? Buy a DRM compatible player/hardware.. which is what they are pushing for- hardware and media that must be in compliance with the software, thus eliminating user choice and fair use."

Eliminating what choice? We don't have a choice now. Let's see, we can buy the CD, or... ummm...hmmm, guess that's the only legal way.

"I don't see how you cannot see anyone starting to use it."

Because we already know what the successor to the CD will be, and it already has digital copy limitiations, and we already know it won't be DRM. Both DVD-A and SuperCD have their own form of copy protection and disallow digital output, and neither uses DRM.

"They are slowly implementing pieces of the puzzle that only affect a small portion of the users (see the original poster) and eventually every thing else will follow suit."

It doesn't matter if every company and their grandma is using it, how are they going to deliver it when the next generation media is already set and doesn't use it? You keep bringing up how it's slowly creeping in everywhere, but you don't seem to have any theory on how it is going to make its way on to any media that is delivered to the consumer.

I believe MS is going to require DRM support, if they don't already, in drivers in order to become WHQL certified, so as much as you think eliminating supporting hardware from your buying list is going to change anything, it won't. Everyone will be using it eventually, whether you and your best friend buy a Creative Labs card or not.

 

[ripthesystem]

Originally posted by: Pariah
"Eliminating what choice? We don't have a choice now. Let's see, we can buy the CD, or... ummm...hmmm, guess that's the only legal way."

Right now we have the choice between hardware from companies that are choosing to empliment DRM (like Creative) or those who as of now have refrained (like Turtle Beach).. I do concede your points on the fact that there are certain types of media and hardware that we are already using. Therefore we seemably don't have a choice in that matter. But I do feel that supporting certain companies/technologies over others can take a stance on what we want as far as future technologies and restrictions on that technology.

"I don't see how you cannot see anyone starting to use it."

Because we already know what the successor to the CD will be, and it already has digital copy limitiations, and we already know it won't be DRM. Both DVD-A and SuperCD have their own form of copy protection and disallow digital output, and neither uses DRM.

I'm not sayting that you are wrong but several people touted the minidisc as the successor to the CD and something tells me that's not going to happen.. What I'd like to mention is that the principles behind DRM are far more vast reaching than the CD or how music in the next few years will reach the masses.

I believe MS is going to require DRM support, if they don't already, in drivers in order to become WHQL certified, so as much as you think eliminating supporting hardware from your buying list is going to change anything, it won't. Everyone will be using it eventually, whether you and your best friend buy a Creative Labs card or not.

Obviously we should just give up. I mean why bother even trying to dissent... Give in. Conform. Everyone else is doing it...

 

[rbV5]

DVDs are already that way with WinXP. Can't output to an analogue source.

Bull $hit, I can output DVD via TV-out with my AIW 7500 using s-video...my 3yr old is watching Disney's "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" on the 32" right now, looks great/sounds great as always...get your facts straight.

btw, I'm using WMP 9, Creative SB Live in XP SP1. All the latest drivers...blah,blah,blah.

 

[Pink0]

Windows media player 8 will not let you output DVDs over S-video. It says that it can't display DVD content over let me check...."an unprotected medium." Lose the attitude, guy.

 

[AmdInside]

Originally posted by: Pink0
Windows media player 8 will not let you output DVDs over S-video. It says that it can't display DVD content over let me check...."an unprotected medium." Lose the attitude, guy.

WMP will not allow you to display DVD on your tv over a tv out that does not have Macrovision encryption enabled.

 

[rbV5]

Windows media player 8 will not let you output DVDs over S-video. It says that it can't display DVD content over let me check...."an unprotected medium." Lose the attitude, guy.

What attitude, you're just wrong is all, I'm watching it right now....and why wouldn't you have a macrovision protection enabled, record a DVD to VHS? Seems dorky to me. As usuall, the chicken littles are spreading it thick, have you actually tried what you claim cannot be done? Yea, Thought so

 

[Pink0]

What attitude, you're just wrong is all, I'm watching it right now....and why wouldn't you have a macrovision protection enabled, record a DVD to VHS? Seems dorky to me. As usuall, the chicken littles are spreading it thick, have you actually tried what you claim cannot be done? Yea, Thought so

First of all, yes I have tried it. It doesn't work. Secondly, you're watching it? That's great. As you said, you're using a different version of media player. I'm talking about 8.

 

[Pink0]

so...you have to have macrovision protection enabled so that you can't back up a DVD. You can only watch it but can't make a backup. I see. And this is technology present in T.V.s and a VCRs, right?
Thanks for proving my point!

 

[rbV5]

That's great. As you said, you're using a different version of media player. I'm talking about 8.

It worked fine with WMP8 also.

so...you have to have macrovision protection enabled so that you can't back up a DVD.

And niether can you, or anybody else for that matter, and never could. DVD's are multi layered media, DVD burners cannot burn multi-layered media..you cannot have a 1to1 copy of a DVD with existing technology, sorry. If you are squawking about making a VHS copy of a DVD, please...that just being whiny, why would you want to?.

If you somehow have circumvented macrovision on your TV-out to somehow beat the MPAA, how's that working for you? LOL, just rip it like everybody else and quite making up issues that don't exist....

Thanks for proving my point!

Keep talking, I think you are doing a pretty good job of that yourself..LOL😀

 

[Pink0]

If you are squawking about making a VHS copy of a DVD, please...that just being whiny, why would you want to?.

If you somehow have circumvented macrovision on your TV-out to somehow beat the MPAA, how's that working for you? LOL, just rip it like everybody else and quite making up issues that don't exist....

No, see, you obviously just don't get it. It's really pretty simple. People are talking about how you can't output DRM to digital speakers. It's the same with DVDs and existing home entertainment units. Think about it. Can you patch a DVD player though a VCR and watch it? No. You should be able to back up any media that you have. It's fair use. Not Dvds though. And no, I haven't disabled this protection you're talking about. It just won't work. Media player tells me that DVDs are protected and can't be displayed over the analogue out. The TV that I have (rather had) it hooked directly to was a Panasonic Tau CT-27SX32. You cannot also back up VHS to VHS with modern decks. This is exactly the same thing as what we're talking about. You can't even use your VCR as a hub to hook all of your gear together because of the built in protection. You wouldn't be able to view it. It's the same principle as what we're talking about here.

 

[rbV5]

People are talking about how you can't output DRM to digital speakers. It's the same with DVDs and existing home entertainment units.

No its not. Nobody with any concept of Fidelity would hook a DVD player to a VCR and then into your TV, be it a standalone set top box, or your PC. It doesn't take 6th grade education to figure that allowing that would just enable blatant and rampant copying of video material, you can't do it with DVD's just like you can't do it with VHS tapes(copywrited). Nothing new there, its been that way for quite some time now...and probably the reason we are even able to purchase DVD players for the PC to begin with.

It just won't work. Media player tells me that DVDs are protected and can't be displayed over the analogue out. The TV that I have (rather had) it hooked directly to was a Panasonic Tau CT-27SX32.

It works fine for me, and always has, I take it "had" means you can't literally try it...sounds a lot like "somebody told me....." which is typicall for folks spreading the FUD, you know, you take some misinformation, sprinkle in a little hearsay and bake it at 350 F for 45 minutes...presto "conspiracy" "fair use" "my rights" violated" "listen to me!"
Give it a rest.

 

[Pink0]

It works fine for me, and always has, I take it "had" means you can't literally try it...sounds a lot like "somebody told me....." which is typicall for folks spreading the FUD, you know, you take some misinformation, sprinkle in a little hearsay and bake it at 350 F for 45 minutes...presto "conspiracy" "fair use" "my rights" violated" "listen to me!"
Give it a rest.

First of all I've already told you two times that I've tried it. If you don't believe me and want to call me a liar that's fine but you're a moron. The reason I say the TV I HAD it hooked up to is because I was living with cameron at the time and it was his TV. Since I don't live with him I can't do it now. Dumbass. Some people don't have multiple inputs on their TVs and need to use their VCR as a hub for consoles, DVD players etc and this copy protection prohibits that. It's exactly the same thing. As you said, it can promote piracy but then so can a digital out port. That's a really easy way to copy digital music. In fact, it's a much better way than copying a DVD with VHS is.

presto "conspiracy" "fair use" "my rights" violated" "listen to me!"

Okay moron, I'm not saying there's a conspiracy or my rights have been violated. That's what you guys are saying. I'm defending DRM saying that it's the same as the stuff we've had for years and no one's been complaining about. Good reading skills you have there.

 

[rbV5]

You said:

Sure, why aren't you making a big deal out of windows XP not allowed the output of a DVD across and analogue out like s-video or composite? Try it some time. It's not allowed.

That is wrong..period, end of story, incorrect, not true. That my friend is called "Mis-information", you mention it more than once, and it is false..period, got it?

Some people don't have multiple inputs on their TVs and need to use their VCR as a hub for consoles, DVD players etc and this copy protection prohibits that.

No you don't, you simply have to get an RF adaptor from Radio Shack for about $20, it will not interfere with macrovision and enables you to hook your PC, DVD player ect into ANY old TV. Using a VCR in the way you want, doesn't work, and shouldn't work and is exactly why they have macrovision protection.

I especially like the way you use insults, misinformation and a nice story to "prove" your point...Classic!

Bottom line, DVD's play fine via TV-out on an analog connection with XP, despite your claims that they don't. Thats what I replied to and I know you're wrong simply because I'm doing it now, and have for quite some time now.......I don't necissarily think you're a liar or whatever, I just know you are wrong..simple as that.

 

[Pariah]

Originally posted by: Pink0
Windows media player 8 will not let you output DVDs over S-video. It says that it can't display DVD content over let me check...."an unprotected medium." Lose the attitude, guy.

Works fine on my laptop using S-Video out to a TV using Windows XP and media player 8. Whatever is causing the problem in your system isn't universal, XP does not block you from using SVideo TV out for DVD's.

 

[db]

So where can I get WMP 6.4?

 

[ripthesystem]

WMP 6.4 came with my installation of Win2k...

 

[Grminalac]

Bascially getting back to the point of the post which is creative releasing new drivers that limit previously available features of the card IS B.S. The mere idea of a company changng a product for the worse and giving the consumer no rights to contest is ludicrous. i'm sure the creative drivers fix problems with the card drivers, BUT UNFORTUNETLY TO FIX THE DRIVER PROBLEMS ONE HAS TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT HIS PRODUCT WILL NOT WORK THE SAME.... Those fixes should be available without having to accept a PRODUCT CHANGE.

Thats is similar to ford saying well, we can certainly fix the defective muffler on your car, however to do so you also have to accept the the 65 mile per hour speed limiter that comes along with the muffler fix. Can't have anyone driving over the speed limit that would be illegal. Oh yeah were also going to paint your car red as well. Uhh, and you cannot do anything about it ... Except well live with the defective muffler that is.

Hmm i think when companies such as microsoft and creative basically change the product you are using and want you to accept a new license you should be able to return the product and get your money back...

 

[Accord99]

Originally posted by: Grminalac
Bascially getting back to the point of the post which is creative releasing new drivers that limit previously available features of the card IS B.S. The mere idea of a company changng a product for the worse and giving the consumer no rights to contest is ludicrous. i'm sure the creative drivers fix problems with the card drivers, BUT UNFORTUNETLY TO FIX THE DRIVER PROBLEMS ONE HAS TO ACCEPT THE FACT THAT HIS PRODUCT WILL NOT WORK THE SAME.... Those fixes should be available without having to accept a PRODUCT CHANGE.

But the point of the original post is wrong. Previous drivers did not allow you to play DRM media at all. With the latest drivers, you can but with the limitations imposed by DRM standards. You can still play all your MP3s, CDs, waves, movies etc. without worries and limitations.

Thats is similar to ford saying well, we can certainly fix the defective muffler on your car, however to do so you also have to accept the the 65 mile per hour speed limiter that comes along with the muffler fix. Can't have anyone driving over the speed limit that would be illegal. Oh yeah were also going to paint your car red as well. Uhh, and you cannot do anything about it ... Except well live with the defective muffler that is.

Wrong analogy. Its more like Ford saying, hey you can drive on this new highway thats been built and currently only you and Ford owners can drive there, however you must strictly follow the 65 mph speed limit. If you don't want to drive on the new highway, you don't and never be bothered by an enforced 65mph limit.

 

[db]

"EFF and the U.S. Copyright Office would like to hear from people who
are unable to use their digital media because of the Digital
Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA).

...From now until December 18, 2002, the Copyright Office is accepting
comments on the effects of the DMCA on access to specific types of
digital media. If you have difficulty making lawful use of your
digital media because of technological access controls, it is very
important to let the Copyright Office know by sending it comments
that specifically explain these problems. Also, please contact EFF
and let us know about your difficulties and we will try to
incorporate your concerns into the comments EFF is submitting to the
Copyright Office. It is vital that we provide the Copyright Office
with numerous concrete examples of individuals whose lawful use of
copyrighted works is impaired by access controls. Without concrete
examples, it will be very dfficult to craft these provisions in a
less restrictive way. For more information on the Copyright Office
Rulemaking proceeding under the DMCA, please see:

http://www.loc.gov/copyright/1201/

Contact Robin Gross with your stories:

robin@eff.org

 

[alkemyst]

What most of the idiots are not understanding is DRM will become a standard or something close to it.

It is doubtful this MS product will get tied up in court and so far that has been the only thing that has stopped any MS product from becoming a 'necessary feature'.

All you people complaining about it won't happen since it kills output are wrong....the majority of people now will never see these problems and won't vote against it. It's a small minority that will encounter this right now, those with digital components and PC/HT setups.

It sucks, I don't agree with it. I don't agree with you are only buying a license to something that's already overpriced.

A few things people don't consider. The price of software is created with piracy in mind....will it go down once piracy is limited...doubtful. Same thing with credit cards, the interest rate was designed to support the fraud encountered when they were created, yet still the majority of CC's have not lowered the rates now that fraud is more managable.

The corporations cry about how they are loosing all this money, yet every year the major 'players' get record bonuses and all this new intrastructure while able to show it as a loss on the bottom line.