New computer for photo editing and gaming... Advice?

[fuzzy247]

Hello Anandtech forums,
I know it's not polite to ask for a favor in my first post without meeting anyone yet but I'm looking for some advice. My old HP pavilion is approaching 100 years old in computer years (6 or 7 in people years) and is on it's last leg. Now that windows 7 is out I want to buy a new computer. Someday I hope to build a system from scratch but currently that isn't an option due to not enough free time, not enough personal knowledge and extreme nervousness about not having a warranty or someone that I can call to fix something if it's not right.

What I need to do with this computer:
The number 1 priority is editing photos with Photoshop CS4, Canon DPP, Lightroom?, etc.
I also want to be able to play some games, specifically the newest Command & Conquer and Red Alert titles, recent SimCity games and other (mostly) RTS or strategy based games.
I need to do some basic video editing once in a while, mostly transferring video from a DV camcorder to DVDs.
I've also done some sound recording with a program called Cool Edit Pro (apparently now Adobe Audition)
And of course I need to do basic tasks such as surfing the net, playing music, Office programs, burning CDs/DVDs, maybe watching movies, etc.

Other features:
I would like to have built in wireless so I can put it on the wireless network at home.
I don't need Blue Ray or TV recording capabilities at this point.

My wife would like to keep everything under $800 but I would be willing to spend up to $1000 if the extra hardware is worth the extra cash. I could even justify $1100 - $1200 if I can get a good monitor and printer with it.

I would like it to last a few years and handle future software. I don't mind paying a little more now if I don't have to upgrade a bunch of stuff in the near future.
I have been happy with my HP 750n through the years. I've added an extra hard drive, USB 2.0, and a DVD RW drive myself but I'd like to start with a clean slate. Since my Pavilion was so reliable I started looking at the new HP models. Here's what I'm looking at so far:
HP Pavilion Elite e9260f Desktop PC $939.99

• • Intel Core i5-750 processor (2.66GHz)
• • 8GB PC3 8500 DDR3 SDRAM
• • 1.5GB Nvidia GeForce GT230 graphics
• • 1TB 7200 rpm hard drive
• • SuperMulti DVD burner with LightScribe
• • Wireless LAN 802.11a/b/g/n
• • 15-in-1 digital media card reader on front panel
• • HP MediaSmart software

I also customized an e9250 and came up with a model for $889 but less RAM, smaller HDD, and a cheaper? graphics card. Here are some of the options I could have chosen with additional cost:

Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-750 processor [2.66GHz, 1MB L2 + 8MB shared L3 cache]
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-860 processor [2.8GHz, 1MB L2 + 8MB shared L3 cache] + $150
Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-870 processor [2.93GHz, 1MB L2 + 8MB shared L3 cache] + $450

6GB DDR3-1333MHz SDRAM [3 DIMMs]
8GB DDR3-1333MHz SDRAM [4 DIMMs] + $50

512MB ATI Radeon HD 4350 [DVI, HDMI, VGA adapter]
1GB ATI Radeon HD 4650 [DVI, HDMI, VGA] +$50.00

1GB NVIDIA GeForce GT 220 [DVI, HDMI, VGA] +$80.00

1GB ATI Radeon HD 4850 [2 DVI, HDMI and VGA adapters] +$150.00

So here are my questions:
Should I go with HP to begin with? Are there better options for quality or value? or warranty?
How much better is i7 than i5? Would it be worth it to go with i7 for photo editing and the kind of games I want to play?
Do I need 8 GB of RAM? Will it come in handy later?
What kind of Graphics Card would you recommend for RTS games and Photoshop?
Is there a way to find out what motherboard and PSU HP uses? Are they decent?
Could I cut back a little and put money towards a good monitor? Maybe one of those fancy IPS panels?

If you've read this far you get a pat on the back. If you have any suggestions or experiences to share I would like to hear them. Sorry, I probably sound like such a rookie.... but it's been a while since I've been computer shopping. Thanks!

 

[elconejito]

In my book, all the OEMs are pretty much in the same boat. Most people have had good, bad, and neutral experiences with all the OEMs so you'll find some set of people that love or hate any particular OEM. Personally, I'd roll with Dell or HP.

For the CPU, I'd look at either the i5 750 or i7 860 ONLY. The upgraded CPU options are overpriced and (for example) you will never notice the 0.13Ghz difference between the i7 860 and i7 870. Since you are not going to be overclocking (you can't since it's OEM) the better turbo on the i5 will be a little better in games, the i7 860 will be a little better in photoshop and video editing. Either one is a great choice, and almost a toss-up, so up to you if it's worth the extra $150. If you're wife is eye-balling an $800 budget, I'd say go with the i5.

The 8GB option over the 6GB you listed above sounds reasonable to me for $50. The only way to tell if it is enough is to open up all your apps and work for a little while on your current machine then check memory usage in Task Manager, and/or scratch sizes in Photoshop. The 6GB might be all you need and that will save you $50.

Do NOT get one of those upgraded video cards. I'd go with the base option 4350 and see how it works out for you. It will 100% be all you need for photoshop. Where it may be lacking is in gaming. If you feel like you need more (you probably will) then you can pick up a new video card (newegg.com has the 4650 priced from $45 to $70 and the 4850 priced from $110 to $140 right now) and sell off the 4350 (or put it in another machine). You might even be able to get a really nice video card like the new 5XXX series for same or similar cost, but you'd have to be on the lookout for the power requirements and make sure that OEM PSU is compatible.

I'd also just go with the stock 500GB hard drive. Odds are, thats way more than you have now. The WD 640GB drive is $70 and the WD 1TB is around $100 from newegg right now. Buy them from newegg and you'll have two drives, one for just storage and one for OS/apps, for less than if you'd purchased just the upgrade.

So, in summary.... you can get the base config for $850 and that will be a nice upgrade for you. If you need a little more gaming performance, get a 4650 or 4850 after the fact (possibly something more powerful, but you'd have to verify compatibility). If you need more hard drive space, get another drive after the fact.

Also, don't forget to budget for a backup drive!

 

[fuzzy247]

Hey elconejito, thanks for the input. I thought those processor upgrades were quite pricey when I first saw them too. I think I'll probably be fine with the i5 unless I can get a really good deal on the i7 somewhere.

I can't really get a good estimate for RAM usage right now because I don't have a lot of the programs I plan to use installed on my old machine. I'm using CS (as in the first CS) but plan to upgrade to CS4 when I get a new computer.

Thanks especially for the video card advice. As long as I can use photoshop I'll be okay without the games for a little while.
But what about the pre-built e9260f? It's only $50 more and it has the 8GB RAM, 1TB HDD, and most of the other features I need. But I'm not sure about the Nvidia GeForce GT230 card. From what I've read it's part of the motherboard but is decent. Does this mean I wouldn't be able to upgrade later?

I haven't found any info about what kind of PSU would be included but I'll keep looking.

And by "backup drive" do you mean an external drive or install another hard drive in the box. I've considered taking the Seagate 120GB drive I installed in my old machine and putting that in the new one but it's already close to being full...

Thanks again for the info. I'll keep researching. My birthday is coming up soon, not to mention Black Friday and Christmas. Hopefully I can get it all figured out by the end of the year.

 

[somethingsketchy]

CS4, to my knowledge, will benefit from as much RAM as you can give it. I'd go with 8GB of RAM if you can.

For the most part you can probably find a better deal online for a graphics card, rather than buying from an OEM. You'd save some extra money by installing the card yourself.

Other than that, an Core i5 processor will suit your fancy for some time to come.

 

[elconejito]

Hey elconejito, thanks for the input. I thought those processor upgrades were quite pricey when I first saw them too. I think I'll probably be fine with the i5 unless I can get a really good deal on the i7 somewhere.

I can't really get a good estimate for RAM usage right now because I don't have a lot of the programs I plan to use installed on my old machine. I'm using CS (as in the first CS) but plan to upgrade to CS4 when I get a new computer.

Thanks especially for the video card advice. As long as I can use photoshop I'll be okay without the games for a little while.
But what about the pre-built e9260f? It's only $50 more and it has the 8GB RAM, 1TB HDD, and most of the other features I need. But I'm not sure about the Nvidia GeForce GT230 card. From what I've read it's part of the motherboard but is decent. Does this mean I wouldn't be able to upgrade later?

I haven't found any info about what kind of PSU would be included but I'll keep looking.

And by "backup drive" do you mean an external drive or install another hard drive in the box. I've considered taking the Seagate 120GB drive I installed in my old machine and putting that in the new one but it's already close to being full...

Thanks again for the info. I'll keep researching. My birthday is coming up soon, not to mention Black Friday and Christmas. Hopefully I can get it all figured out by the end of the year.

Even the older CS can check scratch sizes. In the document window, click on the little triangle flyout next to the zoom in the lower left corner. Choose "Scratch sizes" from the flyout. The number on the left is how much memory you're using (RAM and Hard drive combined) the number on the right is how much RAM you have available for photoshop. If the number on the left is bigger than the number on the right, your work will be sloooow since you'd be working off of the hard drive. This will at least give you an idea of how much RAM you "need". I'm fairly certain that either 6GB or 8GB will be fine for you. You can never have too much RAM, IMO, so if the price is right go for it.

I had forgotten about the pre-built. Looks like a good deal. I googled that GT230 and I see conflicting bits of information. Some sites say its an integrated GPU, other sites say its a new discreet card based off of a 9600 or 9800. The former "might" be good for gaming, the latter is definitely decent for games as long as you dont max out all the eye-candy or have some huge monitor. Either way will be good for CS4. And you should still be able to upgrade as long as the PSU is sufficient (see below).

You will be hard pressed to find info about the PSU online anywhere, unless someone has posted that info on a forum or something. You'll likely find out when you get the computer and open it up. At that time, just post back here in a new thread with the info on the PSU (wattage, amps, available connectors, etc) and somebody will be able to let you know what will work with it. Generally speaking, the OEMs match the PSU to be adequate for whatever they ship so you have to get a card that draws similar power or you might have to replace the PSU (assuming it's a stock size) in addition to the video card. BUT... I wouldn't worry about that right now 🙂

Yes, for backup I generally mean "another copy somewhere else". Usually, I recommend people just get an external USB since thats the easiest simplest thing to do. It just has to be big enough to hold your data, so you don't need a huge 2TB if you've only got a 100GB of data. You could probably put your old 120GB in a USB enclosure and use that. Optionally, you can use an online backup service like Carbonite ($50/year), JungleDisk (pay per GB), or Mozy (pay per GB). I don't like having the backup "in" the machine your backing up just in case (for example) the power supply explodes and takes out all the hardware inside. Also, in case of fire, it's easier to grab an external and run 🙂 More and more of our valuable stuff (photos, documents, etc) is digital and it becomes easier to lose all that stuff when a hard drive crashes.

 

[mmntech]

CS4, to my knowledge, will benefit from as much RAM as you can give it. I'd go with 8GB of RAM if you can.

For the most part you can probably find a better deal online for a graphics card, rather than buying from an OEM. You'd save some extra money by installing the card yourself.

Other than that, an Core i5 processor will suit your fancy for some time to come.

Yep, it's 64-bit now as of cs4. It also supports a form of gpgpu through OpenGL.
8gb does seem a touch exessive to me since a lot of people seem to get by fine with the 32-bit version. Go with it though if the price difference over 6gb is negligable. If you do go with 8gb, just make sure you get Windows 7 pro. Home Premium has an 8gb cap, which I assume includes graphics ram as well.

To the second part, I don't know if building/buying parts separately is really more economical anymore. You do have better control of what goes into your system.

 

[elconejito]

...Home Premium has an 8gb cap, which I assume includes graphics ram as well....

say whuh? This is the first i've heard of this. Or are you referring to the 32-bit version? But that doesn't make sense either sicne it would be limited at 4GB. Links?

To the second part, I don't know if building/buying parts separately is really more economical anymore. You do have better control of what goes into your system.

At the low-end there is no way to compete with an OEM price-wise. At the high-end, it's always cheaper to DIY. A mid-range system like this one can go either way.

 

[fuzzy247]

Even the older CS can check scratch sizes. In the document window, click on the little triangle flyout next to the zoom in the lower left corner. Choose "Scratch sizes" from the flyout. The number on the left is how much memory you're using (RAM and Hard drive combined) the number on the right is how much RAM you have available for photoshop.

I googled that GT230 and I see conflicting bits of information. Some sites say its an integrated GPU, other sites say its a new discreet card based off of a 9600 or 9800.

You will be hard pressed to find info about the PSU online anywhere, unless someone has posted that info on a forum or something. You'll likely find out when you get the computer and open it up.

Yes, for backup I generally mean "another copy somewhere else". Usually, I recommend people just get an external USB since thats the easiest simplest thing to do. It just has to be big enough to hold your data, so you don't need a huge 2TB if you've only got a 100GB of data. You could probably put your old 120GB in a USB enclosure and use that. Optionally, you can use an online backup service like Carbonite ($50/year), JungleDisk (pay per GB), or Mozy (pay per GB). I don't like having the backup "in" the machine your backing up just in case (for example) the power supply explodes and takes out all the hardware inside. Also, in case of fire, it's easier to grab an external and run 🙂 More and more of our valuable stuff (photos, documents, etc) is digital and it becomes easier to lose all that stuff when a hard drive crashes.

Thanks for the tip about the scratch sizes. I've never used that little feature before. But will testing it on my old computer (with CS1, Windows XP, and only 512 MB RAM) give me a good estimate of what I need (for CS4, Windows 7 and 6-8 GB RAM)? It said that I had over 220 MB of RAM available with Photoshop open by itself. I started to go to scratch disk usage (if I understand the concept right) after opening 4 or 5 photos. I assumed that Windows 7 and CS4 would require more RAM to begin with, even more than the 512 MB in my old system. It sounds like 8GB should be plenty for my needs.

Okay, so I'm not the only one that feels there is some mystery to the GT230. I tried to find some reviews or tests but couldn't find a lot of definitive info. Maybe I'll search through the Video Card forum or start a new post there. I was hoping that HP had some info about what PSU they included just to see what my future options might be but as you say, I can worry about that later.

Good tips about backup. I need to look into those online backup sites. Right now I burn photos to DVD every so often and keep those in a fire safe box. Maybe I should upgrade my backup method along with my computer though....

say whuh? This is the first i've heard of this. Or are you referring to the 32-bit version? But that doesn't make sense either sicne it would be limited at 4GB. Links?

I hadn't heard this either. Does that mean that if I got a computer with 1GB graphic card and 8GB RAM then Home Premium would only let me use the 1GB from the video card and only 7 GB of the RAM? I see stores selling desktops with Home Premium and 8 GB RAM all the time. I would feel cheated if I couldn't make use of it all. But thanks for the warning. I'll have to look into it.

Thanks for all the advice in general. I'm already feeling a little better about spending a big chunk of cash. And I even tried a "multi quote". I learn so much here!

 

[mmntech]

say whuh? This is the first i've heard of this. Or are you referring to the 32-bit version? But that doesn't make sense either sicne it would be limited at 4GB. Links?



At the low-end there is no way to compete with an OEM price-wise. At the high-end, it's always cheaper to DIY. A mid-range system like this one can go either way.

Yep, sorry. I was mixing it up with Home Basic. Hence the disclaimer in my signature. lol. It's 16gb. Wikipedia has a huge chart comparing the editions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_7_editions

 

[elconejito]

Thanks for the tip about the scratch sizes. I've never used that little feature before. But will testing it on my old computer (with CS1, Windows XP, and only 512 MB RAM) give me a good estimate of what I need (for CS4, Windows 7 and 6-8 GB RAM)? It said that I had over 220 MB of RAM available with Photoshop open by itself. I started to go to scratch disk usage (if I understand the concept right) after opening 4 or 5 photos. I assumed that Windows 7 and CS4 would require more RAM to begin with, even more than the 512 MB in my old system. It sounds like 8GB should be plenty for my needs.

The number on the left of the scratch size is only related to photoshop. It is everything photoshop is using which includes the actual document, undos, history, and a bunch of other stuff i can't recall. The longer you use photoshop, the bigger this gets (probly due to history and caches building up) which is why to get the best estimate, it's good to just watch this size over time while you work on a typical project. 6GB or 8GB will be plenty unless you are doing something out of the ordinary.

The number on the right is how much you have available and that would be affected by the old computer. In your case, you start with 512mb of RAM, windows takes up some amount, other programs take up their share and photoshop is left with 220mb. For the new system, I think photoshop by default takes up 50% of available RAM and lets you allocate up to 75% (or something like that). So you'd end up with a right-side number of between 3-6GB. I'd think that should be plenty.

Yes Win7 and CS4 will take up more RAM, but you will have so much available it won't matter.