New Build - VMWare

[Wiseman82]

Hi,

I work in IT as a DBA/System Admin and I'm looking to build a new home PC as my old PC is a few years old now. My current PC is a core2duo 6420 with 8GB ram - it's too slow and doesn't have enough memory.

What will it be used for?
Development, QA, self-training and general PC. Will be running VMWare Workstation, Visual Studio, SQL Server etc. I'm really struggling with 8GB of memory on my current PC - I want to be able to run more virtual machines and to be able to allocate more memory to each VM. I'm looking to buy 32GB of memory for my new build. It would be great to have the option to upgrade further, but I could probably live with 32GB for a while. I'm not bothered about games.
Budget
£1000-1200
Country
UK
Brand perference:
Whatever is going to be fastest/most reliable
Old parts:
Maybe 4/5 HDDs from my old PC, but I'm looking to purchase a SSD ~240GB for the new build. Will also be using existing monitors.
Overclocking
Yes if it's going to be safe/stable
Resolution
1 monitor @ 1920x1200, 1 monitor at 1600x1200
When I plan to build it?
In the next few weeks.

This is what I'm looking at so far:

Memory:
http://www.systo.co.uk/32gb-ddr3-1600-cl10-ripjawsz-f3-12800cl10q-32gbzl-1891739.html
(definitely compatible with P9x79 pro)
or
http://www.systo.co.uk/32gb-ddr3-2133-cl9-ripjawsz-f3-17000cl9q2-32gbzh.html
(faster but more expensive. Should work with P9x79 pro but isn't on the compatibility list)

MB:
http://www.systo.co.uk/p9x79-pro-p9x79-pro.html

Cooler:
http://www.systo.co.uk/nh-d14-se2011-nh-d14-se2011.html

CPU:
http://www.systo.co.uk/i7-3820-bx80619i73820.html

SSD
http://www.systo.co.uk/256gb-sata-iii-m4-7mm-kit-ct256m4ssd1cca.html
or
http://www.systo.co.uk/agility-3-240gb-agt3-25sat3-240g.html
or
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Stor...A-III+Solid+State+Hard+Drive+?productId=49034

Graphics:
http://www.systo.co.uk/radeon-hd-7750-1gb-11202-00-20g-1873561.html
or
http://www.systo.co.uk/eah6670-dc-sl-di-1gd3-eah6670-dc-sl-di-1gd3.html

Case:
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Comp...Midi+Tower+Chassis+w/+USB3.0+?productId=46520

PSU:
http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Comp...+Bronze+Modular+Power+Supply+?productId=47163
or similar.

I might also consider going for a Z77 + 3770K, but this will limit memory to 32GB. Also, not sure what compatibility is like with 4x8GB DIMMs on Z77. I could save some money by using the stock cooler and integrated graphics with IB over SB-E.

Any suggestions or opinions welcome.

 

[tynopik]

well if you want more than 32GB, you either need to go AMD or get one of the server-boards like this

It will take 64GB with unregistered or 256GB with registered (registered also supposedly gives you better stability)

the chip you really want with this is probably the E5-1620, but it's not available at retail yet, maybe it will be in a couple weeks

if you're not interested in games, there's no reason to spend that much on a graphics card.

if you don't have one you can cannibalize, you can get something like this or this

 

[mfenn]

Let's take a step back here. What does your typical workload look like such that you need 32GB of RAM?

 

[aaksheytalwar]

For a regular users 1-3 vms 16gb will be okay and turn out much cheaper. Anything more than 32gb isn't in your budget IMO

 

[Wiseman82]

Sandy bridge-E typically gives you 8 DIMM slots. I would start out with 8GBx4 to give me 32GB and maybe add another 8GBx4 later if required to take me to 64GB. I think this is likely to be a cheaper solution with better performance than going for a lower-end server based product as I don’t need ECC etc. The supermicro is about ~£100 more expensive than the P9x79 Pro. The components I listed should come in under £1200.

I agree the graphics is probably overkill for what I’ll be using the system for 99% of the time. I’m just thinking if I’m spending ~£1000 on a PC, I might as well spend another £30/40 to get a half-decent graphics card. It’s going to be my main desktop PC, so I’ll probably make use out of it at some point. The cards I was looking at are probably good value from a price/performance/power perspective.

I’m going to be using the PC for a home lab environment where I’ll be running several VMs simultaneously. If I allocate 4GB of memory to each VM and leave 4GB for the host (Note: The 4GB is an average. I’ll allocate more/less memory depending on the role of the VM):

16GB = 3 VMs + Host.
32GB = 7VMs + Host

I need to be able to run more than 3 VMs so 16GB isn’t going to be enough memory. I could allocate less memory to be able to run more hosts, but this will cause performance issues if the VMs don’t have the memory they need. I don’t think I’ll need more than 32GB for a while so I could maybe consider maxing out the memory of an IB system, but having the option to upgrade later might be useful (I’ll probably keep the PC for at least 3 years).

 

[Viper GTS]

I've been through a few iterations of home labs, my advice is this:

Separate your lab and your daily use machine.

It is really annoying having to shut down all your VMs to run updates on your host, replace hardware, etc.

Split your budget and build a single socket ESXi machine with 32 GB (the limit for the free version). Use a cheap Xeon so you can have ECC. RAM is the big limiting factor for this so don't go out of control on the CPU - Just make sure you have 32 GB (or a path to get there if you think you only need 16 today). You can do this on a cheap desktop board.

Spend the rest of your budget on your desktop and enjoy having separate environments. You could also likely use your old PC for ESX and put more money into your desktop.

As a side bonus ESXi performs much better than Workstation and is far more relevant to employment opportunities.

Viper GTS

 

[sourceninja]

At 32gig of ram, I'd just buy a cheap supermicro server and run my vm's in esxi.

 

[mfenn]

I’m going to be using the PC for a home lab environment where I’ll be running several VMs simultaneously. If I allocate 4GB of memory to each VM and leave 4GB for the host (Note: The 4GB is an average. I’ll allocate more/less memory depending on the role of the VM):

It doesn't actually work like that on any modern version of VMware Workstation or ESX(i). The hypervisor doesn't go out and allocate the entire VM's memory as soon as you power it on. Instead, it waits until the VM actually writes to the memory page. This lowers your memory usage significantly, especially since a lightly loaded Windows VM in a lab environment won't be using much memory anyway (Linux VMs much much less).

Additionally, the hypervisor also does page sharing causes identical virtual pages to be mapped to the same physical page. When you're running a bunch of VMs with the same OS, you can see a significant reduction in overall memory footprint.

At any rate, I agree with Viper that you should build a separate machine and run ESXi rather than using Workstation. ESXi is the "grown up" virtualization platform with a lot more features and more applicability to the job market. You can build a 16GB quad-core ESXi box for about $500-600.

If you really want to learn about virtualization, what you would do is build two of the boxes that I describe above and then buy a VMware Essentials kit for another ~$500. That'll give you a more powerful and useful virtual infrastructure at home than the majority of businesses out there for about the same cost as a monster machine.

 

[Viper GTS]

Will Workstation now allow overcommit? I haven't really used Workstation since ESXi became free, but I did get a copy of Workstation 8 when I passed the VCP. It didn't do overcommit back then, if it does now that's a nice improvement.

Viper GTS

 

[mfenn]

Will Workstation now allow overcommit? I haven't really used Workstation since ESXi became free, but I did get a copy of Workstation 8 when I passed the VCP. It didn't do overcommit back then, if it does now that's a nice improvement.

Viper GTS

It has since at least 7, maybe even before that.

 

[Wiseman82]

I wasn't aware of the over commit and page sharing features. Does this work automatically on VMWAre Workstation 8? I don't feel the benefit of them on my current machine, but that's probably because I'm only able to allocate the minimum amount of memory to each VM so they are starved of memory.

How does the page sharing work? Do you need to use linked clones? I'm guessing there might be some overhead involved in de-duplicating memory if there isn't an efficient way to identify pages that can be shared.

I agree there is going to be some benefit in having a separate physical machine to run my VMs. The main benefit is the isolation from my desktop which would allow me to run tests on the VM and continue working on my desktop without interfering with the test. I won't need to do this that often though. I also need to consider space/heat/power/noise of an additional machine and it will be more difficult to make my budget stretch to two PCs. It's given me an alternative to think about though.

I'm more interested in using the virtualization s/w as a tool to allow me to run multiple VMs than training to become a VMWare specialist (although it might be a bonus). I don't know much about ESXi if I'm honest, but I'll do some research. VMWare seem to have a confusing array of virtualization products now.

 

[theevilsharpie]

I wasn't aware of the over commit and page sharing features. Does this work automatically on VMWAre Workstation 8? I don't feel the benefit of them on my current machine, but that's probably because I'm only able to allocate the minimum amount of memory to each VM so they are starved of memory.

VMware Workstation has always been able to overcommit memory, if not through VMware Workstation itself, then via the host OS's virtual memory functionality.

 

[mfenn]

I wasn't aware of the over commit and page sharing features. Does this work automatically on VMWAre Workstation 8? I don't feel the benefit of them on my current machine, but that's probably because I'm only able to allocate the minimum amount of memory to each VM so they are starved of memory.

Yes, the overcomming and page sharing work automatically unless you explicitly disable them. There is also another memory-saving feature called ballooning that is automatically in effect if you have the VMware tools installed. Basically, VMware forces the guest to believe that it is under memory pressure so it doesn't keep a bunch of memory tied up in disk caches, etc. Without that in effect, you will see the VM's "using" their full memory allocation even though most of it is redundant caches and the actual running programs are using much less memory.

How does the page sharing work? Do you need to use linked clones? I'm guessing there might be some overhead involved in de-duplicating memory if there isn't an efficient way to identify pages that can be shared.

You don't need to tell VMWare that the VMs are related in any way. Basically all it does it scans the memory periodically and merges pages that are the same. It's pretty efficient about doing it (at least on ESXi).

 

[Wiseman82]

Thanks to everyone for the advice/info - it's been useful. I should probably invest some more time learning about the various virtualization technologies from the main vendors.

I'm probably still going to invest in a higher spec desktop/workstation instead of splitting the budget between a desktop and a bare metal hypervisor. Despite the advantages of this approach, I think VMWare workstation is still going to be a more convenient solution. It's given me some food for thought though.

I'm hoping my old desktop will allow me to play about with ESXi/Hyper-V/XenServer. Hyper-V should be ok, but I'm not sure about driver compatibility with ESXi/XenServer.

 

[mfenn]

ESXi 5.0 is a lot better about drivers than the older versions. It even has drivers for Realtek NICs now!

As for building a monster machine, I hope you now understand that 32GB of RAM is really not necessary as long as you take some steps to optimize your VMs memory usage. It's not that 32GB of RAM in and of itself is that expensive when you're talking about 4GB DIMMs, it's that the X79 platform is really expensive. IMHO you would be able to save a lot of money by going with 1155 and 16GB and not really feel any worse off.

 

[Wiseman82]

It's good to know that drivers are less of an issue in newer versions of ESXi.

I'm still considering my options for the new build. Some of the memory saving features will make it possible to run more VMs, but ideally I want to avoid paging memory to disk and causing additional I/O pressure. I can see the affect of this on my current system and disabling some of the memory saving features appears to help. The situation will be better with a SSD drive and the increase to 16GB will help a lot. I still think I'm going to be a lot better off with 32GB though - if nothing else, SQL Server will use the memory for it's buffer pool when I'm working with larger databases.