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New air conditioner tech could cut power usage by 50-90%
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CycloWizard
Lifer
This isn't exactly a new idea. Liquid dessicant cooling systems are already commercially available.
http://www.munters.us/upload/Related%20product files/DryCool HD Residential Product Guide.pdf
The NREL work might improve the efficiency somewhat, but it's not exactly revolutionary work.
http://www.munters.us/upload/Related%20product files/DryCool HD Residential Product Guide.pdf
The NREL work might improve the efficiency somewhat, but it's not exactly revolutionary work.
CycloWizard
Lifer
Don't let reality rain on your we-need-government parade.
techs
Lifer
Exactly. And while we're at it, lets leave BP alone. They are doing the best they can. And besides, no one could have prevented what happened. And, also, we just need the oil, so just avoid the oily parts of the beach.
BurnItDwn
Lifer
I dunno if the other replies answered your question or not (bbzzdd is blocked here at work.)
But ... the humidity as told by weather stations, etc is "relative" humidity.
Relative humidity is the ratio of the current humidity vs full saturation point of the air at it's given temperature.
100% humidity doesn't mean you are swimming, it means the air can not hold any more water unless the temperature increases.
It's not exaggerated.
It sucks ass.
when it's like 65 and I'm working in the yard splitting logs or whatever with my axe .... I work up a sweat, and the sweat doesn't evaporate, so even though it's only 65, it feels like it's 100... ugh!
Amused
Elite Member
Yep. 100% humidity is also called the "dew point."
From wiki: Relative humidity of 100% indicates the dew point is equal to the current temperature and the air is maximally saturated with water.
There is a great chart here too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dew_point
What is not made clear in the hype is: where do you get the energy to dry the dessicant? Using a dessicant is a valid way to remove water vapor from air. And yes, you could find a way to spray water into dry air. The water liquid must absorb heat energy from the air to convert to water vapor mixed into the air, and the result is cooler air. But it also has more moisture in it, and hence is less able to absorb even more (your sweat) to cool you down. So, using a dessicant can remove the water vapor and restore the dry air condition, AND that air is still cool.
HOWEVER, the fact that the dessicant has absorbed water vapor from the air means that it now has less capacity to absorb more from the next passing batch of damp air. At some point the dessicant ability to do its job in this scheme is all used up and it stops working. The solution is simple - you use heat to warm the dessicant and force it to release the water vapor back into the surrounding air. Of course, when you do this, you arrange that this released water vapor (in very damp air) is blown out of your house.
BUT I repeat, where do you get the heat energy from? Some simpler systems use electric heaters for this, but obviously that defeats the purpose of the system outlined here. The article mentions maybe using natural gas (burn it) for heat. That usually is less expensive than electrical energy at your home, so a system that does that could be designed in a way that has you spending less $ in total than if you were using only a standard air conditioner. However, that means that, although you might save over 80% of the electricity use, a big bunch of the money saved on electricity will be spent instead on gas, and your savings will NOT be anything like 80%! Another option suggested is solar energy. By that I presume they mean, trap some heat from the sun and use it for heat to warm up the dessicant. Now we're getting into a more complex machine design. There needs to be a circulating loop of liquid dessicant so that, inside your house, it is cool and absorbs water vapor from the air, and then it is pumped somewhere else and heated with sunlight or heat coils fed from a solar collector and pump system so that it can be dried out and returned inside the house. I remains to be seen whether such a system can be built and installed at a reasonable initial capital cost, and operate reliably with minimal maintenance costs. That part really is virtually ignored in the original article. It is full of potential and promises, with no details of actual proof of function and cost.
HOWEVER, the fact that the dessicant has absorbed water vapor from the air means that it now has less capacity to absorb more from the next passing batch of damp air. At some point the dessicant ability to do its job in this scheme is all used up and it stops working. The solution is simple - you use heat to warm the dessicant and force it to release the water vapor back into the surrounding air. Of course, when you do this, you arrange that this released water vapor (in very damp air) is blown out of your house.
BUT I repeat, where do you get the heat energy from? Some simpler systems use electric heaters for this, but obviously that defeats the purpose of the system outlined here. The article mentions maybe using natural gas (burn it) for heat. That usually is less expensive than electrical energy at your home, so a system that does that could be designed in a way that has you spending less $ in total than if you were using only a standard air conditioner. However, that means that, although you might save over 80% of the electricity use, a big bunch of the money saved on electricity will be spent instead on gas, and your savings will NOT be anything like 80%! Another option suggested is solar energy. By that I presume they mean, trap some heat from the sun and use it for heat to warm up the dessicant. Now we're getting into a more complex machine design. There needs to be a circulating loop of liquid dessicant so that, inside your house, it is cool and absorbs water vapor from the air, and then it is pumped somewhere else and heated with sunlight or heat coils fed from a solar collector and pump system so that it can be dried out and returned inside the house. I remains to be seen whether such a system can be built and installed at a reasonable initial capital cost, and operate reliably with minimal maintenance costs. That part really is virtually ignored in the original article. It is full of potential and promises, with no details of actual proof of function and cost.
techs
Lifer
Uh, the real definition.
Relative Humidity: The amount of perspiration caused by your relatives.
Kanalua
Diamond Member
This is the real way to the United States green. Make it cheap for the consumer. If they came up with an alternative fuel to gasoline for cars that was cheaper than gasoline (and not an inflated price of gas through taxes, or a lower price on the alternative through government incentives) people would drop gas in a heartbeat. We switched all of our home lighting to Compact Florescent...not a care for their environmental impact, but for the savings in electricity bill (they are only marginally more expensive than incandescent, initially).
Amused
Elite Member
FelixDeCat
Lifer
Using dessicated remains? Count me in!
Actually relative humidity is defined as the sweat on your sack while you are screwing your sister.
Peace
Lounatik
Bignate603
Lifer
If they could come up with a viable alternative to gas that was cheaper than gas the problem would already be solved. If its cheaper then there's no problem to be solved, it will naturally solve itself. The reason that we haven't seen a solution is because coming up with an alternative is not that easy.
People always keep on saying "They should do something" and act like if they don't know to do it it must be easy.
Chaotic42
Lifer
The dew point is often from about 77-83F here in the summer. The heat index has been in the upper 110s to 120 or so here for the past several days. Usually something like 97-98F with a dew point of 81-82.
CycloWizard
Lifer
All this time, I thought you were just a partisan hack. Turns out the problem is that when you rub your two brain cells together, they output some idiotic garbage. I guess before you just got lucky and it had some relevance to what was going on in the thread, but now you've exposed yourself.
Fuck that. A nephew of mine who just turned 17 just went down for basic training for the National Guard in NC. Kind of a big move to do for a 17 year old, but to add to it, doing basic in the middle of the summer in NC. No freaking thanks!
I was applying to jobs earlier today, and while I'm pretty open to a lot of the US, I do have preferences.
One was a job in AL and another couple in AZ. Here I am and it's hot as shit (at times when humid, above 80° feels hot) in upstate NY at 8am. Started to think about jobs more up north then. 🙂
Chaotic42
Lifer
I thought you were an entertainer on a cruise ship?
Rubycon
Madame President
That was earlier in the 90s when I was working with marine life support systems.
I work in entertainment (stage/lighting/sound) although I still like to sing covers and backups on occasion. 😀
Modelworks
Lifer
The way the system works in more detail:
So once the dessicant is too 'wet' you can turn on a heating coil for a few minutes to remove the moisture and it is back to working again. Heat pumps already implement defrost heating for ice buildup so this wouldn't be anything new to implement.
Rubycon
Madame President
The watt density of the condenser is not very effective on the defrost cycle, however. The increased head pressure during the defrost cycle where the fan is turned off also increases compressor noise and pushes draw to FLA or up to 15% over that value where permitted by design. During this time cooling is suspended. A two stage system can operate in tandem for such a cycle or even use a hot gas bypass valve which is far cheaper than a heat pump and associated complexity of components including reversing valves, etc. Resistance coil recharge cycles make sense however either design presents the engineer with unforeseen complexity and expense which is questionable to the purchaser on actual recovery of extraordinary up front investment recovery over the life of the system through energy savings.
Uhm yes....
From the article you linked
article said:
It seems entirely different than the NREL process which appears to use evaporative cooling.
Cyclowizard's self description said:
agreed completely.
CycloWizard
Lifer
Based on the first link I found, you found one difference. There are plenty of others that use evaporative cooling as well. The only reason I know is that I've been working on a side project to develop one and we're using evaporative cooling. Pump it up in the attic and use solar heat if necessary. It is very cost effective, but hardly revolutionary. But I would never expect you to understand - you're a mechanical engineer.
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