Never ever give them an inch.

[MadRat]

Boberfett is right, no powerful government tools have never been abused by the wrong people. Powerful government is a tool for evil.

 

[Darwin333]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Darwin333

There's nothing wrong with regulation to protect consumers.

One could argue that the camera's are the same thing. Just something to protect the consumer (people).

Out of curiousity (because I really don't know), does Israel use tons of cameras to monitor its citizens? Plenty of terrorist attacks there... maybe they're smart enough to realize that the cameras DON'T prevent attacks - they only solve the question of "who's responsible" after the attack occurs. (Of course, I suppose in that way, they may prevent a second attack.)

Cameras don't protect consumers. They solve the crime after the fact. Regulation is there so you won't get E-coli when you eat beef, so you won't have rats and fingers in your meats, so you can be confident that the drugs you are taking are drugs, not sugar pills.[/quote]

Regulation obviously does not prevent things like E-coli. The recent outbreaks of it in multiple foods proves that. Then we have the whole imported food issue and the recent pet food issue. Regulation acts as a deterrent. If a company does not control the safety of their product they will be faced with fines or sanctions but only AFTER they have broken the rules. Much the same as cameras.

In all reality, cameras will be used much more for crime than terrorism. A camera can deter some thug from robbing you at gunpoint. As well as help LEO get criminals off the street and therefor prevent them from committing more crimes.

My point is that their is not much difference between the two at face value. The problem is the potential abuse of the camera system. Especially when you consider where facial recognition software will be in the next few years.

 

[Drift3r]

Don't be afraid of your government folks. Turn in your guns and give up your rights including your right to privacy.

Big Brother will watch over you and protect you. Big brother only has your best interest in mind.

Some of you should know that in some states having a sex device like a dido is a felony. Maybe these cameras will help track all these people who buy and own these sexual devices. Maybe they can be used to monitor bedrooms to protect us against those who would use such devices during the act of sex and thus commit a felony. Or better yet it might help us track those who commit sodomy via oral or anal sex.

The more cameras the better I say !! How else are we going to enforce those laws that would other wise be almost enforceable and near impossible to police? Remember if you are not guilty of any crime you should not be worried about giving up your rights. If you are not doing anything wrong at home you shouldn't be afraid of having a government agent monitor you at home or your every move. It's not like there ever have been abuses of federal programs or institutions. Power does not corrupt and absolute power does not corrupt absolutely.

 

[Starbuck1975]

You're kidding, right? Checks and balances? Not lately. Or haven't you been watching the news?

Yes I have been watching the news, and I haven't noticed anything that even remotely mirrors the series of events resulting in the emergence of Stalin's regime.

What I do know is that the American people voted many Republicans out of Congress for blindly supporting Bush in the WoT and Iraq...since the American people failed to hold Bush accountable by voting him out of office in 2004, they did the next best thing by taking away Republican hegemony across both the Executive and Legislative branches...seems like the system is working just fine.

Similarly, the Judicial branch over the past two years has dealt Bush some serious blows, particularly in the detainment and treatment of suspected "terrorists."

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Darwin333
In all reality, cameras will be used much more for crime than terrorism. A camera can deter some thug from robbing you at gunpoint. As well as help LEO get criminals off the street and therefor prevent them from committing more crimes.

That's not a much better deterent than the existing justice system.

Now if you're a criminal, what sounds like more of a deterent:
A) Robbing someone and maybe getting caught by the police and put in jail, maybe 1 week after the crime, maybe never.
B) Robbing someone, getting shot and being DRT (dead right there.)

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Good for you. You might not care if your personal liberties are breached, but millions of Americans do care.

I fail to see how tracking vehicles for patterns of suspicious behavior is an invasion of personal liberty.

Until you are the one in an interrogation room with guys with guns wanting to know why your name is on a terror watch list along with an 8 yr old boy or 90 yr old woman. And why you went to Walmart 3 times in one hour, with no lawyer, no guns, no phone calls, no say, no rights, and with absolutely no recourse except to admit to what they said you did just to get it over with after you've gone insane from being interrogated for months non stop without seeing the light of day.

How do I know you were just buying cookies and forgot the milk, then got charged twice for the milk? You could have been buying small unnoticeable quantities of fertilizer or something to make a bomb with, or staking the place out. What do you do in the above situation when there is nobody to take your side, nobody to help you, nobody to speak for you?

I'd rather we not get there at all, than wait until we notice it to speak out against it when we see it. By that time, you'll be rounded up for noticing and speaking out about it, and nobody will even know you are missing.

re: how to boil a live frog in room temperature water: turn the heat up slowly.

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Triumph
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Since it's difficult to gain absolute power in one fell swoop, governments instead practice taking a little bit at a time, so that nobody notices. The slippery slope argument may be cliche, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

:beer:

 

[Atheus]

Get this. Here in London people use public transport a lot, we need a convenient way to pay, and this comes in the form of an RFID card which you wave at a reader device when you get on the subway. The use of this card is encouraged by making the cash fare around twice as expensive in comparison. This is notable because your name is associated with your card in most cases - they can track where you are on the public transport system at all times, and perhaps even track you locally by communicating with the card from range. Maybe it could prevent another bomb on the tube, just maybe, but how can we guarentee it won't be used for anything else? People tend to use all the resources they have to get what they want.

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: Atheus
Get this. Here in London people use public transport a lot, we need a convenient way to pay, and this comes in the form of an RFID card which you wave at a reader device when you get on the subway. The use of this card is encouraged by making the cash fare around twice as expensive in comparison. This is notable because your name is associated with your card in most cases - they can track where you are on the public transport system at all times, and perhaps even track you locally by communicating with the card from range. Maybe it could prevent another bomb on the tube, just maybe, but how can we guarentee it won't be used for anything else? People tend to use all the resources they have to get what they want.

Similar systems exist in the US but the fare disparity is not really significant (like 10%). I pay a flat monthly fee for unlimited usage of the system which can automatically be charged to your credit acct vs the disposable pay per use cards or 7/30 day cards (which are still readily obtainable). It is more helpful for agencies here for revenue and usage analysis. The only readers in place are on the fare collection turnstiles.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Until you are the one in an interrogation room with guys with guns wanting to know why your name is on a terror watch list along with an 8 yr old boy or 90 yr old woman. And why you went to Walmart 3 times in one hour, with no lawyer, no guns, no phone calls, no say, no rights, and with absolutely no recourse except to admit to what they said you did just to get it over with after you've gone insane from being interrogated for months non stop without seeing the light of day.

Your scenario plays on emotional fears but has no basis in reality.

How do I know you were just buying cookies and forgot the milk, then got charged twice for the milk? You could have been buying small unnoticeable quantities of fertilizer or something to make a bomb with, or staking the place out. What do you do in the above situation when there is nobody to take your side, nobody to help you, nobody to speak for you?

I don't shop at Wallmart, but I may stop at Target on the way home from work to pick up some tin foil...maybe then your theory will make some sense to me.

Let's take your Wallmart scenario for a walk. Assume for a moment that I do frequent a Wallmart several times in one day...or perhaps loiter outside the entrance, walking back and forth without entering...there are security cameras covering the entrances to most large retail chain stores...let's say that security notices the suspicious patterns in my behavior, and contact authorities...I'll even shoot for the stars, and assume that they contact the FBI because they think I am a terrorist.

The FBI pays me a visit, interrogates me, and comes to the very quick conclusion that I simply like spending time at Wallmart...what incentive do they have to keep me under their control or supervision...given my associations, job and normal routine, why would they continue to harass me if it garners them nothing???

 

[exdeath]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Until you are the one in an interrogation room with guys with guns wanting to know why your name is on a terror watch list along with an 8 yr old boy or 90 yr old woman. And why you went to Walmart 3 times in one hour, with no lawyer, no guns, no phone calls, no say, no rights, and with absolutely no recourse except to admit to what they said you did just to get it over with after you've gone insane from being interrogated for months non stop without seeing the light of day.

Your scenario plays on emotional fears but has no basis in reality.

How do I know you were just buying cookies and forgot the milk, then got charged twice for the milk? You could have been buying small unnoticeable quantities of fertilizer or something to make a bomb with, or staking the place out. What do you do in the above situation when there is nobody to take your side, nobody to help you, nobody to speak for you?

I don't shop at Wallmart, but I may stop at Target on the way home from work to pick up some tin foil...maybe then your theory will make some sense to me.

Let's take your Wallmart scenario for a walk. Assume for a moment that I do frequent a Wallmart several times in one day...or perhaps loiter outside the entrance, walking back and forth without entering...there are security cameras covering the entrances to most large retail chain stores...let's say that security notices the suspicious patterns in my behavior, and contact authorities...I'll even shoot for the stars, and assume that they contact the FBI because they think I am a terrorist.

The FBI pays me a visit, interrogates me, and comes to the very quick conclusion that I simply like spending time at Wallmart...what incentive do they have to keep me under their control or supervision...given my associations, job and normal routine, why would they continue to harass me if it garners them nothing???

Hear that flying over your head? That was the point and you entirely missed it. While my scenario is a bit exaggerated (or maybe not), the point is you think it's ok until *you* become an innocent caught up in something by mistake and treated like a criminal.

In a more likely scenario, wait until you are detained at an airport for hours, miss your flight, and lose a day or more of your vacation or have to fight off false charges because your name happened to be on a government surveillance list of 'known terrorists'.

Or until your house is raided and completely trashed by a police sting operation resulting from 'careful surveillance' and they got the wrong house and you are entitled to receiving absolutely zero restitution for their mistake. And if you defend yourself or your property from unlawful search and seizure, you get shot or arrested. This does in fact happen quite often.

Still trust your government?

 

[StageLeft]

This is the future for all of us. More surveillance, automation, etc. we will all be like minority report so that a criminal can't even walk around without his retina being scanned and come up on a grid somewhere to be picked up. There are big benefits to this as it gets down the line. I feel a great deal less crimes will be unsolved, which means less repeat offenses (less first times too), etc. the only drawback is that I won't be able to go 60 in a 50 when I'm in a hurry because I know that in the mail a couple of days later an automatic ticket will come up.

 

[RU482]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

Once you get mistakenly "convicted" of a crime, your opinion will change

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Shivetya
The leaked document also reveals the scale of possible national surveillance with ANPR. The police can compare details of vehicles entering the London congestion charge zone against a hotlist of target vehicles, and identify cars that have been at several sites at key times. The police say this could help pinpoint finds of terrorist material. At present the police can apply for the London congestion zone records only on a case by case basis. The new power will give police live access to all the data.


What people passed off as small invasion of their privacy has now expanded into the Government knowing where they drive nearly all the time. Of course its all in the name of terror... but with cameras popping up in major US cities how long before the Feds step in and get access to the footage in real time?

This irrational fear of government amazes me...

People agreed with you when Hitler and Stalin killed millions. If you want millions to die once more just keep it up.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: sirjonk
are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party?

When someone places a smiley face on communism we call it socialism. Many MANY people subscribe to the big-government ideology these days. It?s the self proclaimed agenda on one of our political parties, while the other has betrayed its base by supporting many big-government ideals.