Nevada Ranch Armed Standoff - Everyone vs The Feds

[fskimospy]

So you don't see any of the negatives associated with public housing as one of the clearest cut cases of institutional racism in the history of this country?

Interesting.

You have no idea what portions of his statement I found racist, nor did you decide to find out. Considering your history I'm not sure why I should have expected a cogent argument out of you at this point, however.

I for one think they had legitimate grievances.

Thinking a group had a legitimate grievance does not translate into supporting that group.

I don't know why you would think that. I don't have to wonder much why you would provide me with an argument that was so easy to argue against though.

Just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Every other explanation for why you were bringing it up was even worse. My apologies if I overestimated the quality of your argument.

I don't know who you think I'm attacking, but once again I do see you providing me with a motive for ill without clarifying that I had ill intentions.

Clearly.

 

[Olikan]

He has his justice. He took his case to court and lost.

So what's your point??

it was a joke about stereotypes....
old, white, angry and republican... like saying that black ppl love fryed chicken

one day, the justice system won't allow you call a republican white and angry...because they are a becoming a minority....hence the irony

 

[ivwshane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

"If we are to proceed toward true liberation, we must cut ourselves off from white people..... [otherwise] we will find ourselves entwined in the tentacles of the white power complex that controls this country.”



I don't care about that, at all.



What kind of group?



You're begging the question, so expect a considerable wait.



Ah yes, I misspelled something - release the hounds! Well done, grammar Nazi.

Yeah I don't see your point. Racism is a symptom of ignorance and this guy is truely ignorant.

What was your point exactly?

 

[Knowing]

You have no idea what portions of his statement I found racist, nor did you decide to find out.

So what did you find racist about it?

Thinking a group had a legitimate grievance does not translate into supporting that group.

Except that I never suggested that anyone supported them. My logic is that if they raise "legitimate grievances" and those same grievances are cited by another person the second person isn't a racist just because you don't agree with something else that he's done.

Just trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm sure you were, from the sub cockle region of my heart I am certain that your motives were as pure as the driven snow from the highest peaks of the inaccessible mountains untouched by the hand of mankind.

 

[Stewox]

.... but I can think of several perfectly valid reasons why the cattle quota would be dropped to a small fraction or even reduced to zero ?

maybe ... Agenda 21 - Totalitarianism posing as Envronmentalism. ... "valid" ... oh it's funny how a bunch of natural resources were recently discovered there.

The trutles not having habitat, all the rest, it's all a joke, they would have killed all those cattle which is his property so they were doing many things the fake court order didn't say, and if you paid attention from the real accounts from the guys there, the water facilities built by the bundies actually supported the whole ecosystem of turtles and other species who came to the waterpumping stations, the cattle were not doing anything to the turtles, 900 cattle on such a huge area, which I don't think you've have correctly calculated the proportions in you head in order to properly. imagine them.

Not that he's not a lying, racist, welfare queen, hypocrite, but all that is another story standing right beside and possibly obscuring whether or not the BLM acted fairly or judiciously.

Unsurprisingly he's none of the above, and the BLM acted way over the court order's approval, that's why the protest mainly started, the protest is not about grazing fees, it's hard to swallow, but I'm not forcing anyone to take my word for it.

I have forgot to mention that, BLM doesn't have the authority to make law, the BLM's PR campaign came from "code violations" - the agency is designed to create and change code however they please, they designed it so bundy would have to downsize his cattles to almost nothing, something he believes he will not do because he does not agree that the code and regulations the BLM has proclaimed to be constitutional, that's why he won't pay them the grazing fee to "manage" the land into

It's also good to mention now that I see the big picture more clearer, is that most of the facilities, structures, water pumping stations, water tanks, are bundy's private property because it's been all built by his ancestors. Why the protest, because the people also don't recognize the authority of the court order BLM obtained, as the constitution is the highest law.



The full clip of bundy's "racist" speech is now on youtube for everyone to see.

http://www.infowars.com/unedited-video-shows-bundy-making-pro-black-pro-mexican-comments/

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agXns-W60MI

And on a silver plate, the transcript:

Bundy’s full comments are reprinted below, with the parts not printed by the New York Times and other media outlets highlighted in bold.​

…” and so what I’ve testified to ya’, I was in the WATTS riot, I seen the beginning fire and I seen the last fire. What I seen is civil disturbance. People are not happy, people is thinking they did not have their freedom; they didn’t have these things, and they didn’t have them.

​

We’ve progressed quite a bit from that day until now, and sure don’t want to go back; we sure don’t want the colored people to go back to that point; we sure don’t want the Mexican people to go back to that point; and we can make a difference right now by taking care of some of these bureaucracies, and do it in a peaceful way.

​

Let me tell.. talk to you about the Mexicans, and these are just things I know about the negroes. I want to tell you one more thing I know about the negro.
​

When I go, went, go to Las Vegas, North Las Vegas; and I would see these little government houses, and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids…. and there was always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch. They didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for the kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for the young girls to do.

​

And because they were basically on government subsidy – so now what do they do? They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never, they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered are they were better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things? Or are they better off under government subsidy?

​

You know they didn’t get more freedom, uh they got less freedom – they got less family life, and their happiness -you could see it in their faces- they were not happy sitting on that concrete sidewalk. Down there they was probably growing their turnips – so that’s all government, that’s not freedom.

​

Now, let me talk about the Spanish people. You know I understand that they come over here against our constitution and cross our borders. But they’re here and they’re people – and I’ve worked side-by-side a lot of them.

​

Don’t tell me they don’t work, and don’t tell me they don’t pay taxes. And don’t tell me they don’t have better family structure than most of us white people. When you see those Mexican families, they’re together, they picnic together, they’re spending their time together, and I’ll tell you in my way of thinking they’re awful nice people.

​

And we need to have those people join us and be with us…. not, not come to our party.​

While Bundy’s use of terms such as “negro,” “colored people” and references to picking cotton are undoubtedly politically incorrect (though not unsurprising for an 80-year-old farmer), when taken in its full context, his argument is actually anti-racist in that it laments the plight of black families who have been caught in the trap of dependency on government.​

I'm just not going to argue with the thread, take it or leave it, because I knew from the beginning it was a soundbite it was too obvious, just make sure you're not falsely accusing someone you have never met, and he's far from any big city to speak in a language style compatible with the politically correct rules, and about the term negro, that's just a defacto race bait term been used for years and they used the same tactic on him.


People don't want to believe the alternative media, people who were there on the ground, fine, but maybe you should see one example of someone who worked and knew how the government works, realized the truth and did what a real man should suppose to do, his name is Joe Banister, a former IRS agent in the Criminal Investigation Division (the one that comes to knock on your door)
http://youtu.be/mf5IK1eR7JI?t=7s

And the stuff you see on wikipedia about him is laughable, all of those lawsuits are because he exposed the IRS so they had to attack him back and they always do it with the judiciary, but sometimes if it's critical they just plant some explosives and blow your car up.

 

[Knowing]

Yeah I don't see your point. Racism is a symptom of ignorance and this guy is truely ignorant.

Since all grammar infractions should be punished swiftly and impartially my first act will be to notify you that the correct nomenclature is "truly."

Honestly, I shouldn't have expected anyone to see my point that things said by people don't become racist when other people say them. Identity politics are insufferably self defeating and I just can't manage the logical gymnastics that make them work.

Along with this line of logic, I shouldn't have expected people who subscribe to the same to be upset about being lied to by their own media outlets.

 

[Perknose]

Ah yes, I misspelled something - release the hounds! Well done, grammar Nazi.

You didn't misspell anything. You just posted the idiot equivalence of attacking the war crimes of Arnold Hitler. And you still don't seem to realize that, which doesn't say much for either your political erudition (not knowing the name of Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor) or your mental agility (not picking up on your glaring mistake even after being pointedly reminded of it more than once.)

Finally, spelling isn't grammar. Can you grasp the difference? It's a big one. You may just have to trust me on that.

Do you even lift, bro?

😉

 

[fskimospy]

Since all grammar infractions should be punished swiftly and impartially my first act will be to notify you that the correct nomenclature is "truly."

Honestly, I shouldn't have expected anyone to see my point that things said by people don't become racist when other people say them. Identity politics are insufferably self defeating and I just can't manage the logical gymnastics that make them work.

Along with this line of logic, I shouldn't have expected people who subscribe to the same to be upset about being lied to by their own media outlets.

Friend, you are the very type of person that "physician, heal thyself" was coined for. You also shouldn't sell yourself short; you've proven yourself amazingly capable of mental gymnastics.

The idea that whether or not a statement should be construed as racist is divorced from context is ridiculous and basically ignores one of the fundamental bases of human communication.

 

[Knowing]

You didn't misspell anything.

Yes, I did. I put Sabrina instead of Sonia. In my defense they both begin with S and end with a and have an i in the middle. I could have just as easily written Sofia.

This might be interesting to you.

You just posted the idiot equivalence of attacking the war crimes of Arnold Hitler.

I didn't attack her. I said she could be quoted (talking about the Hispanic family).

And you still don't seem to realize that, which doesn't say much for either your political erudition (not knowing the name of Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor)

Why would I realize that a typo is an attack if it isn't?

or your mental agility (not picking up on your glaring mistake even after being pointedly reminded of it more than once.)

You mean how I had the gall to reply to a post before editing an earlier post?

 

[Knowing]

The idea that whether or not a statement should be construed as racist is divorced from context is ridiculous and basically ignores one of the fundamental bases of human communication.

So when are you going to get back to me on that racist remark? Because I believe the context was: compared to slavery, living in public housing is not a net increase in freedom. Also, he made reference to putting young black men in prisons and abortion. I'm pretty sure we're all familiar with racial incarceration rates, but did you know that abortion is a pretty big deal in black communities? They call it the black genocide. True fax.

 

[Victorian Gray]

LOL

yeah and you have all those eco-terrorists and pseudo-anarchy groups that are all extreme left wing


they aren't violent at aaaaaaaaallllllllllllllll

How many armed standoffs have there between "eco-terrorists and pseudo-anarchy groups" and government forces in the U.S. in, say, the last 30 years?

 

[Perknose]

Yes, I did. I put Sabrina instead of Sonia.

Sabrina is NOT a misspelling of Sonia, just as Donald is not a misspelling of David, despite both having a 'd' at the beginning and end, together with an interior 'a.'

It (Sabrina) is an entirely different name, no matter how much you smugly and stupidly claim otherwise.

or your mental agility (not picking up on your glaring mistake even after being pointedly reminded of it more than once.)

You mean how I had the gall to reply to a post before editing an earlier post?

FFS no. I mean how at least twice you had your mistake very publicly pointed out to you, and yet you never had the mental acuity to pick up on it.

 

[brycejones]

How many armed standoffs have there between "eco-terrorists and pseudo-anarchy groups" and government forces in the U.S. in, say, the last 30 years?

That isn't a fair question, they end to quickly when they get to stoned to respond.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Lol, talk about your low information voter. He's conflating the YELLOW STAR jews had to wear on their lapels with nazi armbands.

Let me hip you to nazi armbands, sm625: Yellow was not a color Nazi brass favored. 😎

I suspect that this is what he was referring to:

Jews were forced to wear these as either a badge or on an armband.

 

[brycejones]

maybe ... Agenda 21 - Totalitarianism posing as Envronmentalism..

Keep a sharp lookout for chemtrails and black helicopters. They are after you man....

 

[Victorian Gray]

lol Clearly he's referencing the Jewish Nazis. 😉

or this which Jews were forced to wear as either a badge or on an armband:

 

[zinfamous]

So when are you going to get back to me on that racist remark? Because I believe the context was: compared to slavery, living in public housing is not a net increase in freedom. Also, he made reference to putting young black men in prisons and abortion. I'm pretty sure we're all familiar with racial incarceration rates, but did you know that abortion is a pretty big deal in black communities? They call it the black genocide. True fax.

well, that's obviously an absurd and woefully ignorant statement to make. Do you think such a statement is worthy of legitimate discussion?

 

[Knowing]

Sabrina is NOT a misspelling of Sonia, just as Donald is not a misspelling of David, despite both having a 'd' at the beginning and end, together with an interior 'a.'

It (Sabrina) is an entirely different name, no matter how much you smugly and stupidly claim otherwise.

It was an error. The name I had in my head was not the correct name although it is similar. I'm really not understanding how that constitutes an attack, or how you could possibly have access to the contents of my mind in order to determine my intentions.

FFS no. I mean how at least twice you had your mistake very publicly pointed out to you, and yet you never had the mental acuity to pick up on it.

But I did, as you can see I edited the post. I'm also digging the personal attacks and how this whole line of inquiry is taking us off the subject at hand.

 

[Victorian Gray]

That isn't a fair question, they end to quickly when they get to stoned to respond.

Rofl

 

[Knowing]

well, that's obviously an absurd and woefully ignorant statement to make. Do you think such a statement is worthy of legitimate discussion?

"Well" yes, I do think it's a legitimate comparison. Having the product of your labor taken from you in exchange for meager rations and a roof over your head I think is similar enough to being collected in ghettos and provided a bare minimum of income, food assistance, and a roof over your head to have a discussion about it.

I believe the terms are... structural or environmental racism?

 

[ivwshane]

Since all grammar infractions should be punished swiftly and impartially my first act will be to notify you that the correct nomenclature is "truly."

Honestly, I shouldn't have expected anyone to see my point that things said by people don't become racist when other people say them. Identity politics are insufferably self defeating and I just can't manage the logical gymnastics that make them work.

Along with this line of logic, I shouldn't have expected people who subscribe to the same to be upset about being lied to by their own media outlets.

Are you racist because you don't see how comments made by other people could be racist or are you a racist because you believe one mans experience allows him to stereotype all men of a certain race?

If people don't understand your point, maybe your point was poorly made😉

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error! I make a lot of them😉


Btw what do black people have to do with this situation? It looks like a deflection to me.

 

[Thebobo]

I'll repeat what I said early on, after gathering the facts, and what is still my judgement.

1: Nevada should own the land.
2: State should let things quiet down and then demand payment.
3: If he refuses, arrest him.
4: If still afraid of violence, you declare him a fugitive.
5: Anyone who goes to the ranch is aiding and abetting a fugitive / should be arrested.

Nevada or any other state should not own these land, these are public lands "ours" just like National Parks, National Forest, recreation area etc are.

 

[Knowing]

Are you racist because you don't see how comments made by other people could be racist or are you a racist because you believe one mans experience allows him to stereotype all men of a certain race?

I don't believe I am racist. I am fully content to judge people based on other characteristics than the color of their skin, which absent all other indicators is a poor predictor of most things.

If people don't understand your point, maybe your point was poorly made

That's a possibility. Another possibility is that they provided me with arguments I never made because they elected to assume that I was using "dog whistle" language in order to satiate my inner kkk grand dragon's need to express itself.

Thanks for pointing out my spelling error! I make a lot of them

So do I, usually it's not a crisis and a mea culpa suffices.

Btw what do black people have to do with this situation? It looks like a deflection to me.

Mr. Bundy mentioned their plight in public housing and compared it to slavery.

 

[McLovin]

My Dad is a very big conservationist and even ran for the open seat on the Arizona Game & Fish Commission on that platform (even though he had 50+ Letters of Recommendation from Mayors of different cities in the state, business owners, former Game & Fish officers, and even a state senator, he lost to a guy who had 5 recommendations and no background in Wildlife other than being President of a Gun Club in Yuma). He also the Outdoor writer for the local paper and runs a Hunting & Fishing Guide business.

He wrote an article on this very issue and I felt I'd share it with you.

http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&SubSectionID=604&ArticleID=60884&TM=61673.19

/16/2014 6:00:00 AM
Mr. Bundy is just wrong

Don Martin
The Great Outdoors


I have been watching with great interest and even keeping a scrapbook about the situation in Nevada regarding Mr. Cliven Bundy and his ongoing battle with the federal government and specifically the Bureau of Land Management over grazing fees and trespass cattle.

At the risk of disagreeing with some of my fellow sportsmen here, I'm going to share my opinion about this entire fiasco and why I think that the blame goes squarely to Mr. Bundy!

But before I go into that, let me say a couple of things.

First of all, I fully agree that our federal systems, especially when it comes to land management issues, are sometimes way out of line, with too many rules and regulations.

Next, I am a strong advocate of multiple use on public lands, including grazing! I support the use, but not abuse, of those lands by anyone.

I call a number of livestock operators in this area friends, and have in the past been instrumental in improving the public lands they operate on by obtaining financial help for dirt tank cleanouts, water improvements, vegetation manipulations, and theft prevention/detection by providing them with cameras to catch vandals and thieves on their ranches.

So I don't care to hear the "anti-cowboy" rhetoric, for I have a long record that definitely shows that I am not.

Finally, never forget we are a nation of laws. Just because you don't like them does not mean you are exempt from them!

That said, let me offer up my thoughts on the situation.

In 1993, Mr. Bundy stopped paying his fees for grazing his cattle on public land. He said he didn't like the way that the BLM was using the fees he had paid, and was "Firing" them and would pay no more.

Really?

Since then he has pleaded his case twice in federal court and lost both times. His bill now including penalties, is somewhere in the area of $1 million, and yet he has continued to thumb his nose at the federal government and their repeated attempts to have him comply with the law.

Over this same period of time, Mr. Bundy has continued to run cattle out there, and I presume that it has been profitable, as he continues to this day to operate his ranch. He was even quoted as saying that if they took his cattle, there would be less beef to eat!

I listened on Monday to a radio show where Mr. Bundy and his sons were interviewed. Cliven stated the land belonged to him, that this was a states' rights issue, and that he did not recognize the federal government's authority when it came to him operating his ranch.

How ridiculous is that.

He has talked about only paying fees to the state of Nevada, who he sees as the true owner of the land.

Maybe he should read Nevada's Constitution again. Article 1, Section 2 says that Nevada recognizes federal government authority.

Quote: "All political power is inherent in the people. Government is instituted for the protection, security and benefit of the people; and they have the right to alter or reform the same whenever the public good may require it. But the Paramount Allegiance of every citizen is due to the Federal Government in the exercise of all its Constitutional powers as the same have been or may be defined by the Supreme Court of the United States; and no power exists in the people of this or any other State of the Federal Union to dissolve their connection therewith or perform any act tending to impair, subvert, or resist the Supreme Authority of the government of the United States. The Constitution of the United States confers full power on the Federal Government to maintain and Perpetuate its existence, and whensoever any portion of the States, or people thereof attempt to secede from the Federal Union, or forcibly resist the Execution of its laws, the Federal Government may, by warrant of the Constitution, employ armed force in compelling obedience to its Authority."

It seems that Mr. Bundy's claim of "sovereignty" based upon the Nevada Constitution is a little off the mark!

Also, if this is such a righteous cause, why has the Nevada Cattlemen's Association, representing over 700 ranchers in Nevada, walked away from this without supporting Mr. Bundy?

As quoted in the Las Vegas Review-Journal on April 8, the Nevada Cattlemen's Association released a statement that noted that it (NCA) "supports effective range management and cooperation among agencies to balance ranching and the conservation of wildlife."

NCA President Ron Torell said, "It is important for our permittees to work with the land management agencies. We want to be good stewards of the land to protect natural resources."

Hmmm, seems not ALL of the Nevada cowboys think Mr. Bundy is in the right on this issue.

I have watched and listened to Mr. Bundy proclaim on sound bites that the lands in question are "his land," which they are not.

This land and about 90 percent of land within the boundaries of Nevada are owned by the federal government. These lands are mostly under the management of the BLM.

So while Mr. Bundy continued to thumb his nose at the federal government, all efforts to work out a peaceful solution went for naught.

Bundy was determined to raise cattle and make money on public land. End of story.

But Uncle Sam wasn't about to give up.

The BLM had not one but TWO court orders that said they would remove the cows that were in trespass status.

And then many gun-toting Americans showed up from all over, ostensibly to support Mr. Bundy.

With visions of Ruby Ridge and Waco in their memory, they showed they were willing and able to start a gunfight with the federal agents. When watching the videos of the situation, one could just sense that at least some of those armed folks were hoping that a shot would be fired and the war they wanted would be on!

On one television clip, a self-styled militia guy said they were going to put the women there at the front, so if they got shot then America and the world could see that the federal agents were killing them!

Wow, that seems to me like the same military tactics used in the Middle East by our enemies.

That's when the leadership of the BLM folded up their tents and went home.

I suspect that with elections coming up, the Democrats sure don't want or need a mass killing of federal officers and armed citizens on their watch. So is this a politically charged issue? Sure it is.

The federal government pulled out their officers to avoid shedding American blood in the Nevada desert over a bunch of cows that are on public land illegally due to the stubbornness of their owner.

But I believe this situation isn't over.

I put my hopes in the representatives who need to clean up these onerous laws by changing them. I don't want a bunch of rag tag militants armed with guns to dictate what is right and wrong.

On a personal note, I have to purchase five federal special use permits each year to operate on public lands/waters. Do I like paying those fees? Not really, but I think they are warranted. Am I happy with the way they use the fees I pay? Generally, no.

I believe that since I am operating a commercial business on these lands/waters, it is fair to pay a reasonable fee.

So I ask you all, will you all come up and stand with me if I refuse to pay my fees to operate on Lake Mead to the National Park Service?

Or will you just stand and watch at a distance as the federal officials impound my boats and fishing gear and haul me off to jail for not paying?

Will you be there willing to sacrifice yourself, friends and neighbors to defend me as a sovereign citizen who does not accept that the federal government has authority over the businesses I operate on public lands/waters?

I doubt it, and I wouldn't expect you to be there because I would be in the wrong.

This entire matter started when Mr. Bundy decided to not obey the law of the land over two decades ago.

Sorry, but he will get no sympathy or support from me!

*edit*I should mention he was also a Police Officer for 20 years and served in the military as an MP before being discharged due to exposure of Agent Orange.

 

[VRAMdemon]

LOL! Bundy is quite the poster boy for freedom and rights. He has a point, you know. None of my black friends know how to pick cotton. What's up with that?

It isn't his fault, he is just carrying on the family tradition that goes back to the eighteenth century.

Fox news will awaken from its dogmatic slumber. Randomly sampled comment: "Amazing how the media has turned this into a racial issue!" lol

​