- Status
My son took cisco academy and earned his cisco certif out of high school, However, there is often a lot of resistance in IT to not hire anyone without a bachelor's Degree. He started going to school for Physics, but ended up working in IT. But he does not work on any one thing all the time. Him and his buddies started working on a project developing a flying web server. He also developed and sold for real money a website.
Most of those degrees are worthless on the job and teach you next to nothing. Then most of what you learn is outdated by the time you graduate. You can make more money a lot of the time just earning a nursing degree. Sometimes you do better by just moving. Some university areas are hot beds for computer jobs. Then a lot of the headquarters for some IT companies is over in Virginia across the river from D.C. My son on the other hands lives out by Provo Utah, which is the home of Brigham Young University (BYU).
Dont limit yourself to just one little micro-field. You have to be flexible. A lot of rich people started in one field and moved on to something else.
You could be scanning documents all day!
Most of those degrees are worthless on the job and teach you next to nothing. Then most of what you learn is outdated by the time you graduate. You can make more money a lot of the time just earning a nursing degree. Sometimes you do better by just moving. Some university areas are hot beds for computer jobs. Then a lot of the headquarters for some IT companies is over in Virginia across the river from D.C. My son on the other hands lives out by Provo Utah, which is the home of Brigham Young University (BYU).
Dont limit yourself to just one little micro-field. You have to be flexible. A lot of rich people started in one field and moved on to something else.
You could be scanning documents all day!
Last edited:
m1ldslide1
Platinum Member
- Feb 20, 2006
- 2,321
- 0
- 0
In my experience piasabird is exactly right about this. If your hiring manager doesn't have a degree, then maybe you're in luck. But otherwise, having no degree can profile you as a "career technician", which isn't where you want to be. An associates or a degree from a technical college like ITT or even a University of Phoenix bachelors won't always improve this perception. Probably depends on the hiring manager. But if you have a 4 year brick-and-mortar degree your are considered to have a higher pedigree and will have an easier time. Probably baseless, but most of our prejudices are. :/
Or...
You may be one of those kinds of people who don't let the limitations of others guide your own probability for chances of success in career or life.
I once sat in the room with a bunch of people who had their Masters/PHD's etc. and they were waiting for me the guy with and AA Degree to voice my opinion and expertise on a 4 billion dollar project.
It all depends.
I'm sure Bill Gates did not put too much credibility on the how others thought about his academic credentials on his way to the top of the food chain, and there are many other IT leaders to look at from various companies.
A degree is a better chance, but colleges are manufacturing plants paid for and influenced by commercial entities to produce a product that can be mass produced.
Their product is a person with a degree.
There are many people (called the masses) who need to be told exactly what to do to get ahead and some do that an excel and break the mold, most others fit nicely into the machine.
You can't go wrong by at least completing a degree, paying your student loans, and then getting a job, and paying your taxes. Don't step too far out of line.
Think about it.
Comblues
You may be one of those kinds of people who don't let the limitations of others guide your own probability for chances of success in career or life.
I once sat in the room with a bunch of people who had their Masters/PHD's etc. and they were waiting for me the guy with and AA Degree to voice my opinion and expertise on a 4 billion dollar project.
It all depends.
I'm sure Bill Gates did not put too much credibility on the how others thought about his academic credentials on his way to the top of the food chain, and there are many other IT leaders to look at from various companies.
A degree is a better chance, but colleges are manufacturing plants paid for and influenced by commercial entities to produce a product that can be mass produced.
Their product is a person with a degree.
There are many people (called the masses) who need to be told exactly what to do to get ahead and some do that an excel and break the mold, most others fit nicely into the machine.
You can't go wrong by at least completing a degree, paying your student loans, and then getting a job, and paying your taxes. Don't step too far out of line.
Think about it.
Comblues
- Oct 25, 1999
- 29,474
- 387
- 126
There is a Law firm in Atlanta that allegedly do not hire even Filing Clerks without a College Degree.
This shift in hiring practices is Not a matter in right or wrong, it is an indication of shifts in Hiring practices, if one does not want to shoot his/herself in the Foot it has to be taken into consideration.
IT is relatively new comer into the work market and long stories from people that got to Middle Management and above years ago are No indication of current and future work hiring practicies.
This shift in hiring practices is Not a matter in right or wrong, it is an indication of shifts in Hiring practices, if one does not want to shoot his/herself in the Foot it has to be taken into consideration.
IT is relatively new comer into the work market and long stories from people that got to Middle Management and above years ago are No indication of current and future work hiring practicies.
FWIW, my opinion is that "a degree is a degree" and it's better than a stack of most certs. In the event the holder decides to changed careers, the employer in the newly-chosen career will recognize that the candidate has SOME kind of degree.
Trying to explain to a non-network manager (pointy hair and all) exactly what a networking certification is, what it covers, why it's important to the new career, etc. is comedy right out of an Abbot & Costello routine.
In the broad range of potential careers, a degree ... almost any kind of degree will trump virtually all certs, even a CCIE in most cases (though why a CCIE would switch careers would puzzle me).
A recent cartoon: The "Most Interesting Man in the World" in the classic pose in front of the fireplace. The caption is "I don't always speak to people with Liberal Arts degrees, but when I do, I order the extra-large frys ..."
I'm speaking broadly for brevity, of course there are always exceptions. I do not have a degree of any type. I do / did have a bunch of certs. I'm doing pretty well and very happy doing what I'm doing. I was all but hired at Motorola long ago when they found I had no degree, they apologized and retracted their offer. I'm sure it happens more these days, with "college being the new high-school."
Trying to explain to a non-network manager (pointy hair and all) exactly what a networking certification is, what it covers, why it's important to the new career, etc. is comedy right out of an Abbot & Costello routine.
In the broad range of potential careers, a degree ... almost any kind of degree will trump virtually all certs, even a CCIE in most cases (though why a CCIE would switch careers would puzzle me).
A recent cartoon: The "Most Interesting Man in the World" in the classic pose in front of the fireplace. The caption is "I don't always speak to people with Liberal Arts degrees, but when I do, I order the extra-large frys ..."
I'm speaking broadly for brevity, of course there are always exceptions. I do not have a degree of any type. I do / did have a bunch of certs. I'm doing pretty well and very happy doing what I'm doing. I was all but hired at Motorola long ago when they found I had no degree, they apologized and retracted their offer. I'm sure it happens more these days, with "college being the new high-school."
- Oct 25, 1999
- 29,474
- 387
- 126
So what you guys are basically saying is an associates degree is almost pointless, with the exception of comblues of course?
While I'm sure some employers trash my resume time after time due to no formal college degree (4 year or better).
However, I am repeatedly offered jobs that say they require a bachelors or even more often a masters degree and these come in the inbox day after day like there is no tomorrow.
If there is a requirement for a degree to be successful in IT, I don't think I've heard of it yet.
I know it helps ease the transition to management - no doubt.
However, in today's market it seems more and more people (hiring managers and even H.R. folks) seem to realize that in IT, certs and raw experience are the trump cards for folks in our professions.
Some may not hire. Ok.
If things change I'll let you know.
I do see jobs that absolutely require a security clearance or the ability to get one.
Here is an example from my inbox today:
We have the following opportunity in PA (northwest of Philly). It is a full-time position. If you'd like to pursue, please send me the following information and I'll submit you right away. Relocation assistance is available.
1) Resume
2) Employment Eligibility (Citizen, GC, TN, etc...)
3) Current salary and total comp plan
4) Salary expectations moving forward
5) How soon can you start
6) Certifications
7) Travel Tolerance
8) Please provide me with detailed summaries of 2 projects that you have been a part of that you are especially proud of. Be sure to state what your specific role was on these projects and what it all encompassed.
This position is for an experienced Network Engineer with Cisco & security expertise responsible for planning, implementation, enhancement, maintenance or operational support of simple and advanced complex data networks as well as the security aspects of such networks. Candidate must be able to hit the ground running as a long-term team-player with peers of the same skills but also able to independently and effectively manage time with a priority-shifting workload under minimal supervision. Must be able to learn new technologies quickly. Some road time, excellent customer interaction skills and occasional scheduled off-hours service for upgrades & maintenance will be required. Must be customer-service-minded and tactful when dealing with customers and all levels of management. Attention to detail is vitally necessary including the ability to independently follow-up on details until a problem is resolved or a project is completed.
Desired knowledge, skill, and abilities:
Sharp analytical skills to identify complex problems at the network, systems and application layers
Extensive knowledge and experience with the operation, troubleshooting and design of enterprise data networks
Working knowledge of data protocols, architectures, standards, addressing, routing, switching and data security
Must have an expert mastery of Cisco devices, specifically Cisco routers & switches and Cisco ASA firewall
Experience with Cisco implementations of LAN, WAN, VPN, firewall clusters, secure wireless, remote access
Experience with content filtering, email filtering, load balancing, traffic analysis, authentication technologies
Mastery of technologies including VLANs, RSTP, 802.1q, PoE, trunks, LAGs, T1/DS1, frame relay, MPLS, TLS, PPP
Mastery of routing & services including BGP, OSPF, EIGRP, GRE, PBR, NAT, DHCP, DNS, NTP, HSRP, QoS, multicast
A working knowledge with application protocols, IPv6, Linux, Windows, Mac and mobile devices would be helpful
Solid background with firewall security policies involving complex objects, rules, NATs, inspection policies, etc.
Experience with various Cisco products such as WCS, WLC, ACE, WAAS, NAC, IPS, ACS and Nexus would be helpful
Experience with Juniper, F5, IronPort, Riverbed, WebSense or Packeteer would also be helpful but not required
Experience with Cisco UC/IPT/VoIP including phone systems, vmail, phones, voice gateways, etc. would be a plus
Experience with penetration testing, ethical hacking, performing security assessments, Nessus, Metasploit a plus
Familiar with wireless security, WEP vs. WPA vs. WPA2, PEAP/EAP, rogue mitigation, AirMagnet, NetStumbler
Experience documenting including configurations, Visio maps, operational procedures and manuals
Experience with diagnostic and NMS applications such as sniffers and NetFlow or SNMP-based monitoring tools
Understanding and working knowledge of cryptographic standards such as IPSEC, PKI and certificates is a plus
Ability to establish and maintain effective working relationships with customers, vendors and coworkers
Ability to communicate clearly and concisely both verbally and in writing with good spelling and grammar
Education and experience required:
Proven track record showing ten or more years full-time hands-on networking experience
Network or security certifications CCNP and/or CCSP are preferred, or equivalent skills & experience
Other network or security certifications such as CCIE, CCDP, CCVP or CISSP would be a plus
Candidate should be willing to pursue CCIE level expertise if not there already
Full flex benefits package including:
Competitive salary for the local market
Medical insurance with prescription coverage
IRA with a portion of company matching
Option to buy/sell time off
Various other benefits
Or like this one from today also:
Please see the Job Description given below..
This email is in reference to your resume that I came across on an online job board. Given below is the job description for a CCIE Engineer with our direct client to be based in TX:
• Network Engineering Specialist –
• CCIE This position will perform systems/network engineering tasks pertaining to development/sustainment program activities.
• Tasks include architect, design, document, build, configure, integrate, test, troubleshoot and install large scale LAN/WAN environments.
• Individual should possess knowledge and experience with network technologies, services, operations and understand associated security practices.
• Qualified applicants will be subject to a security investigation and must meet minimum requirements for access to classified information.
*******Need U.S. Citizenship and ability to obtain TS with SSBI security clearance required.
Required Skills:
Network Certifications at CCIE Level At least 10 years experience in Systems or IT engineering, Integration and Test, or related engineering disciplines In-depth understanding of network technologies and associated services, management, and security practices/techniques.
Experience with Data Center LAN design, implementation , diagnostics, performance and management Must be able to communicate effectively both in writing and verbally
Desired Skills:
• Experience with Cisco, Juniper and Brocade switching/routing equipment Knowledge/experience with SAN and WAN implementations Network Certifications such as CCNP Knowledge of ISP/ASP model and related SLAs.
• ITIL knowledge/certification
• TS/SCI access desired
• Required Education (including Major): Bachelor of Science in Engineering, Computer Science, IT, Math, Physics or related Engineering field or equivalent work experience
Or equivalent experience comes up a lot and is the modern day buzzword that is a million dollar wildcard.
One more:
My name is Mr. C and I work with FL. I came across your resume and wanted to reach out to you and introduce myself. I’m not sure what your current job situation is but I wanted to see if you were open to new opportunities at this point in your career. I have a great opportunity within the Health Care industry as a Senior Cisco Network Engineer that matches up well with your background.
The position pays competitively and offers growth, stability, and longevity. The Healthcare industry is booming right now and there is so much money being poured into technology. My client is going through rapid expansion and the next few years is going to be exciting for them.
I’ve attached a brief job description for you to review. Either way, I appreciate your time and I look forward to hearing back from you.
[FONT="]Senior Cisco Network Engineer – Healthcare[/FONT][FONT="], [/FONT][FONT="]FL[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Tech USA is currently seeking a Senior Cisco Network Engineer to be a part of a dynamic and diverse team, with a large local Healthcare organization. We are looking for a seasoned, team oriented, quality minded, and motivated individual to join this growing organization. Don’t miss this great opportunity and apply today.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Responsibilities[/FONT]
· [FONT="]This Position reports to the Director of Network Services.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Responsibilities include:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco ASA configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco Routers configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Checkpoint Firewall configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco Switch, Layer 3 and Layer 2 configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]F5 Load Balancer[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco NAC / ISE[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Nexus Switches
Disaster Recovery – Networking[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Bandwidth monitoring and capacity planning[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]RSA configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]IOS upgrades[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Remote Worker VPN deployment and support[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]MPLS networks[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Expertise[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Certified Security Professional or higher preferred[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Extensive knowledge of Internet Protocols, communication protocols, data and network security [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Network Monitoring Tools[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Experience with using packet analyzers such as WireShark [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Switch Configuration and Troubleshooting [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Router Configuration and Troubleshooting [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Network Performance Monitoring and Troubleshooting [/FONT]
· [FONT="]IP routing skills (BGP, Route filtering) [/FONT]
· [FONT="]GRE and VPN experience[/FONT]
· [FONT="]MPLS experience[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Hands-on experience of network encryption techniques (IPSEC) [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Experience with configuration and troubleshooting of Cisco Quality of Service [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Systematically troubleshoot difficult and/or complex application, system, and/or network issues as they arise [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Define and document a process to ensure that the components that make up a production service have adequate capacity and scalability to handle anticipated traffic volumes [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Responsible for defining, designing and implementing highly available, fault tolerant network solutions[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Perform quarterly firewall reviews and rule consolidation[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Perform risk assessments on networking infrastructure[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Minimum Education & Experience [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Professional Certification or higher (CCSP)[/FONT]
· [FONT="]5 years or proven experience with Cisco products[/FONT]
This is just three from my inbox that came up asap.
FYI - $140k to $200k is not a bad investment for a guy with an A.A. Degree and few certifications along the way.
I imagine folks with a 4 or 6 year degree or better are doing a lot better but I can pay my bills based on these wages.
Another thing is these folks come looking for guys like me - highly certified and somewhat experienced. They check my profile on whatever job board and seek me out time and time again, day after day.
I'm sure they do the same for everyone else too, perhaps more so for the folks who have degrees. I wouldn't know really. I know what I see in my inbox and what they tell me when I tell them my rates and see if they are willing to offer what I need based on the particular job in question.
Ultimately its not what you are worth... it's what you earn and take home - hopefully save.
Comblues
However, I am repeatedly offered jobs that say they require a bachelors or even more often a masters degree and these come in the inbox day after day like there is no tomorrow.
If there is a requirement for a degree to be successful in IT, I don't think I've heard of it yet.
I know it helps ease the transition to management - no doubt.
However, in today's market it seems more and more people (hiring managers and even H.R. folks) seem to realize that in IT, certs and raw experience are the trump cards for folks in our professions.
Some may not hire. Ok.
If things change I'll let you know.
I do see jobs that absolutely require a security clearance or the ability to get one.
Here is an example from my inbox today:
We have the following opportunity in PA (northwest of Philly). It is a full-time position. If you'd like to pursue, please send me the following information and I'll submit you right away. Relocation assistance is available.
1) Resume
2) Employment Eligibility (Citizen, GC, TN, etc...)
3) Current salary and total comp plan
4) Salary expectations moving forward
5) How soon can you start
6) Certifications
7) Travel Tolerance
8) Please provide me with detailed summaries of 2 projects that you have been a part of that you are especially proud of. Be sure to state what your specific role was on these projects and what it all encompassed.
This position is for an experienced Network Engineer with Cisco & security expertise responsible for planning, implementation, enhancement, maintenance or operational support of simple and advanced complex data networks as well as the security aspects of such networks. Candidate must be able to hit the ground running as a long-term team-player with peers of the same skills but also able to independently and effectively manage time with a priority-shifting workload under minimal supervision. Must be able to learn new technologies quickly. Some road time, excellent customer interaction skills and occasional scheduled off-hours service for upgrades & maintenance will be required. Must be customer-service-minded and tactful when dealing with customers and all levels of management. Attention to detail is vitally necessary including the ability to independently follow-up on details until a problem is resolved or a project is completed.
Desired knowledge, skill, and abilities:
Sharp analytical skills to identify complex problems at the network, systems and application layers
Extensive knowledge and experience with the operation, troubleshooting and design of enterprise data networks
Working knowledge of data protocols, architectures, standards, addressing, routing, switching and data security
Must have an expert mastery of Cisco devices, specifically Cisco routers & switches and Cisco ASA firewall
Experience with Cisco implementations of LAN, WAN, VPN, firewall clusters, secure wireless, remote access
Experience with content filtering, email filtering, load balancing, traffic analysis, authentication technologies
Mastery of technologies including VLANs, RSTP, 802.1q, PoE, trunks, LAGs, T1/DS1, frame relay, MPLS, TLS, PPP
Mastery of routing & services including BGP, OSPF, EIGRP, GRE, PBR, NAT, DHCP, DNS, NTP, HSRP, QoS, multicast
A working knowledge with application protocols, IPv6, Linux, Windows, Mac and mobile devices would be helpful
Solid background with firewall security policies involving complex objects, rules, NATs, inspection policies, etc.
Experience with various Cisco products such as WCS, WLC, ACE, WAAS, NAC, IPS, ACS and Nexus would be helpful
Experience with Juniper, F5, IronPort, Riverbed, WebSense or Packeteer would also be helpful but not required
Experience with Cisco UC/IPT/VoIP including phone systems, vmail, phones, voice gateways, etc. would be a plus
Experience with penetration testing, ethical hacking, performing security assessments, Nessus, Metasploit a plus
Familiar with wireless security, WEP vs. WPA vs. WPA2, PEAP/EAP, rogue mitigation, AirMagnet, NetStumbler
Experience documenting including configurations, Visio maps, operational procedures and manuals
Experience with diagnostic and NMS applications such as sniffers and NetFlow or SNMP-based monitoring tools
Understanding and working knowledge of cryptographic standards such as IPSEC, PKI and certificates is a plus
Ability to establish and maintain effective working relationships with customers, vendors and coworkers
Ability to communicate clearly and concisely both verbally and in writing with good spelling and grammar
Education and experience required:
Proven track record showing ten or more years full-time hands-on networking experience
Network or security certifications CCNP and/or CCSP are preferred, or equivalent skills & experience
Other network or security certifications such as CCIE, CCDP, CCVP or CISSP would be a plus
Candidate should be willing to pursue CCIE level expertise if not there already
Full flex benefits package including:
Competitive salary for the local market
Medical insurance with prescription coverage
IRA with a portion of company matching
Option to buy/sell time off
Various other benefits
Or like this one from today also:
Please see the Job Description given below..
This email is in reference to your resume that I came across on an online job board. Given below is the job description for a CCIE Engineer with our direct client to be based in TX:
• Network Engineering Specialist –
• CCIE This position will perform systems/network engineering tasks pertaining to development/sustainment program activities.
• Tasks include architect, design, document, build, configure, integrate, test, troubleshoot and install large scale LAN/WAN environments.
• Individual should possess knowledge and experience with network technologies, services, operations and understand associated security practices.
• Qualified applicants will be subject to a security investigation and must meet minimum requirements for access to classified information.
*******Need U.S. Citizenship and ability to obtain TS with SSBI security clearance required.
Required Skills:
Network Certifications at CCIE Level At least 10 years experience in Systems or IT engineering, Integration and Test, or related engineering disciplines In-depth understanding of network technologies and associated services, management, and security practices/techniques.
Experience with Data Center LAN design, implementation , diagnostics, performance and management Must be able to communicate effectively both in writing and verbally
Desired Skills:
• Experience with Cisco, Juniper and Brocade switching/routing equipment Knowledge/experience with SAN and WAN implementations Network Certifications such as CCNP Knowledge of ISP/ASP model and related SLAs.
• ITIL knowledge/certification
• TS/SCI access desired
• Required Education (including Major): Bachelor of Science in Engineering, Computer Science, IT, Math, Physics or related Engineering field or equivalent work experience
Or equivalent experience comes up a lot and is the modern day buzzword that is a million dollar wildcard.
One more:
My name is Mr. C and I work with FL. I came across your resume and wanted to reach out to you and introduce myself. I’m not sure what your current job situation is but I wanted to see if you were open to new opportunities at this point in your career. I have a great opportunity within the Health Care industry as a Senior Cisco Network Engineer that matches up well with your background.
The position pays competitively and offers growth, stability, and longevity. The Healthcare industry is booming right now and there is so much money being poured into technology. My client is going through rapid expansion and the next few years is going to be exciting for them.
I’ve attached a brief job description for you to review. Either way, I appreciate your time and I look forward to hearing back from you.
[FONT="]Senior Cisco Network Engineer – Healthcare[/FONT][FONT="], [/FONT][FONT="]FL[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="]Tech USA is currently seeking a Senior Cisco Network Engineer to be a part of a dynamic and diverse team, with a large local Healthcare organization. We are looking for a seasoned, team oriented, quality minded, and motivated individual to join this growing organization. Don’t miss this great opportunity and apply today.[/FONT][FONT="][/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Responsibilities[/FONT]
· [FONT="]This Position reports to the Director of Network Services.[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Responsibilities include:[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco ASA configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco Routers configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Checkpoint Firewall configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco Switch, Layer 3 and Layer 2 configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]F5 Load Balancer[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Cisco NAC / ISE[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Nexus Switches
Disaster Recovery – Networking[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Bandwidth monitoring and capacity planning[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]RSA configuration and management[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]IOS upgrades[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]Remote Worker VPN deployment and support[/FONT]
[FONT="]o [/FONT][FONT="]MPLS networks[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Expertise[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Certified Security Professional or higher preferred[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Extensive knowledge of Internet Protocols, communication protocols, data and network security [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Network Monitoring Tools[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Experience with using packet analyzers such as WireShark [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Switch Configuration and Troubleshooting [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Router Configuration and Troubleshooting [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Network Performance Monitoring and Troubleshooting [/FONT]
· [FONT="]IP routing skills (BGP, Route filtering) [/FONT]
· [FONT="]GRE and VPN experience[/FONT]
· [FONT="]MPLS experience[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Hands-on experience of network encryption techniques (IPSEC) [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Experience with configuration and troubleshooting of Cisco Quality of Service [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Systematically troubleshoot difficult and/or complex application, system, and/or network issues as they arise [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Define and document a process to ensure that the components that make up a production service have adequate capacity and scalability to handle anticipated traffic volumes [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Responsible for defining, designing and implementing highly available, fault tolerant network solutions[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Perform quarterly firewall reviews and rule consolidation[/FONT]
· [FONT="]Perform risk assessments on networking infrastructure[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="]Minimum Education & Experience [/FONT]
· [FONT="]Cisco Professional Certification or higher (CCSP)[/FONT]
· [FONT="]5 years or proven experience with Cisco products[/FONT]
This is just three from my inbox that came up asap.
FYI - $140k to $200k is not a bad investment for a guy with an A.A. Degree and few certifications along the way.
I imagine folks with a 4 or 6 year degree or better are doing a lot better but I can pay my bills based on these wages.
Another thing is these folks come looking for guys like me - highly certified and somewhat experienced. They check my profile on whatever job board and seek me out time and time again, day after day.
I'm sure they do the same for everyone else too, perhaps more so for the folks who have degrees. I wouldn't know really. I know what I see in my inbox and what they tell me when I tell them my rates and see if they are willing to offer what I need based on the particular job in question.
Ultimately its not what you are worth... it's what you earn and take home - hopefully save.
Comblues
What Comblues is saying is if you need help getting a job and finding a lucrative career, just ask and I can share what I know works for me.
It works everyday, day after day.
I know plenty of people with degrees in IT, and a lot of them like what they see when I show it to them.
Maybe I'm slow at finishing my degree... but its been mostly because I've been paid very very well to divert my attention from the old brick and mortar schools.
I study every day just about.
I help others somehow mostly every day.
I'm rewarded by it accordingly.
Friday, I go to Cisco to be a Subject Matter Expert for the CCNP/CCIE Program.
No degree.
My resume and my certifications bought the ticket.
I get paid for the trip + expenses for my troubles.
Just another example.
I guess I could just be getting lucky or am maybe the exception to the rule but it is working for me in spades.
I'm MCSE+Everything from back in the day too, but I moved over from Microsoft. I was well compensated for my MS skills too.
Comblues
I've been watching some videos on a few terms and man am I glad I am a video game playing musician. I have no issues understanding spanning trees or the OSI model. I'm gonna attack switches and subnet masking after I get back from connecting my mom's computer to the router. Her wireless card went out and I have some ethernet cable so she can play candy crush saga on facebook. :facepalm:
I should mention that I worked for Higher Education and my role was "Network Manager" with people titled "Technical Directors" being more or less equal to me or following my lead.
I've worked for a city government, a school district, and even a college directly and not needed a degree to do so.
I've worked with "scientists" and not needed a degree.
I've worked for the Fortune 500 and still no degree required.
Cisco Partners and no degree.
Cisco and several Gold Partners have interviewed me several times and offered the job and still I don't have that golden degree.
I've worked for a hospital and no degree required.
The list goes on and on and on.
A government contractor offered their top job to me and no degree.
Got the opportunity to run two who hospitals nearly single-handed and no degree required.
Citrix, Cisco, Juniper, Dell, etc. Name brand vendors... none cared about the degree.
AT&T didn't either.
I've worked for a lot of companies, governments, schools, hospitals, entertainment venues and the list goes on.
The largest project was $4 Billion Dollars and my part was directly about $30 Million of that not counting ongoing telecommunications investments...
Still no degree needed yet.
In fact, while I've known a lot of people with degrees in the field, I'd have to say most don't have them or have them in another field of study.
I'm sure there are jobs that absolutely require a degree.
Wait... the Orange County Library did require a college degree back in the late 90's one time. I think I interviewed to be their Security Manager or something along those lines. Got to the job offer and they told they couldn't give me the job over a degree.
So I do have one direct experience with a degree being absolutely required.
Comblues
Well my friend - I started out by simply repairing computers, one by one, and making my cash that way.
I got work also by volunteering too and getting the contract that way.
The list goes on.
You need to get a hold of me offline sometime and I can explain it better and in more detail.
I helped at least three of my students break into the field over a 6 month period and all I did was offer a free CCNA training class 2 evening a week.
I paid for everything to get them going and gave them all at least 2-3 Cisco 1600 series routers to work with.
I even spotted the exams and paid for them too. I wanted to know how effective my assistance was to them when it came time for the exam.
Then I brought in a guy from Delaware named Eman Conde (The CCIE Agent) to offer them some career advice (We were in Florida). He flew down for the evening to meet my study group.
At least 2 of the team went from being security guards to network admins.
1 Network Admin went from about $50k to $80k.
One intern got a job at my company.
One intern got more experience at my company.
Two of my other friends got employed with a Cisco Gold Partner.
They all needed to get their foot in the door, break into Cisco, or get a better Cisco job, etc.
Those are some rock solid examples of what I am saying.
Start with practicing doing what it is you want to do.
Quantify it and then do it.
Document it.
That's all experience.
Comblues
I was trying to write about just what you are asking about how it applies to Network Professionals to get into the field.
My latest experiment is taking a person who doing a MB from a Mb and making her not only job ready but also a full scale network engineer over a certain period of time.
My thread got bashed quite a bit. One deleted from the forum. I understand that network engineering is probably not the thing to speak of in "how-to" terms. It's not technical enough.
However, how to get into the technical field can be "very technical".
Tomorrow for example - My apprentice will go to a job interview and at the very least be given a tour of the facilities for a Net Tech role. Not bad for a field trip. As an example.
Maybe I need to record how interviews go and see if that can help people a little.
Contact me via PM and I can give an email of phone number to speak person to person.
Some people tire of reading long-winded posts.
I can tell you my techniques may sound boring to those who know them or could care less but if a person needs a job or needs to break into the industry - priceless.
And I don't charge a thing or even ask anything in return. Don't need to.
I love to see and hear about people reaching their maximum potential and enjoying the associated lifestyle that this affords them.
Comblues
My latest experiment is taking a person who doing a MB from a Mb and making her not only job ready but also a full scale network engineer over a certain period of time.
My thread got bashed quite a bit. One deleted from the forum. I understand that network engineering is probably not the thing to speak of in "how-to" terms. It's not technical enough.
However, how to get into the technical field can be "very technical".
Tomorrow for example - My apprentice will go to a job interview and at the very least be given a tour of the facilities for a Net Tech role. Not bad for a field trip. As an example.
Maybe I need to record how interviews go and see if that can help people a little.
Contact me via PM and I can give an email of phone number to speak person to person.
Some people tire of reading long-winded posts.
I can tell you my techniques may sound boring to those who know them or could care less but if a person needs a job or needs to break into the industry - priceless.
And I don't charge a thing or even ask anything in return. Don't need to.
I love to see and hear about people reaching their maximum potential and enjoying the associated lifestyle that this affords them.
Comblues
That's called experience and becoming or already being the "go-to guy".
Comblues
Gryz
Golden Member
- Aug 28, 2010
- 1,551
- 203
- 106
I don't understand how we can be discussing "being a network expert" and "understanding subnetting" in the same thread ? Those are light-years away from each other.
About those job requirements.
How much of all those topics do employers really want you to understand ?
I can believe someone can configure a whole bunch of those devices. But then also being able to troubleshoot problems ? And do performance monitoring ? To be an expert in firewalls, l2-switches, MPLS, encryption, BGP and many more widely different subjects, at the same time, is that possible ? I'm not talking about minimal knowledge to configure a basic feature. But to be an expert. To claim you really understand it.
Or is it just a matter of: understanding enough to keep the network up. And whenever there is a problem, you call the TAC ?
I consider myself a "network guy" And even an expert in something. In routing protocols. One routing protocol in particular. Other routing protocols a bit less. And TCP/IP in general. But I wouldn't feel confident to actually claim I have all great understanding of all topics on those checklists.
Or are we supposed to brag and exaggerate ?
Or am I really old, my knowlegde old, my learning speed slow, and are all the young kids true experts at everything ?
About those job requirements.
How much of all those topics do employers really want you to understand ?
I can believe someone can configure a whole bunch of those devices. But then also being able to troubleshoot problems ? And do performance monitoring ? To be an expert in firewalls, l2-switches, MPLS, encryption, BGP and many more widely different subjects, at the same time, is that possible ? I'm not talking about minimal knowledge to configure a basic feature. But to be an expert. To claim you really understand it.
Or is it just a matter of: understanding enough to keep the network up. And whenever there is a problem, you call the TAC ?
I consider myself a "network guy" And even an expert in something. In routing protocols. One routing protocol in particular. Other routing protocols a bit less. And TCP/IP in general. But I wouldn't feel confident to actually claim I have all great understanding of all topics on those checklists.
Or are we supposed to brag and exaggerate ?
Or am I really old, my knowlegde old, my learning speed slow, and are all the young kids true experts at everything ?
Last edited:
The point is how do you get from point a to point b and what different routes are possible. I'm just starting out so the point of this thread is what are my options and what should I work on before I'm paying 3-400 dollars on something that will not help me complete my goal or its completely over my head.
As for the network issue last night my biggest problem was I was told the holes were drilled so I could route the wire and they weren't. Layer 8 problem, user.
Gryz
Golden Member
- Aug 28, 2010
- 1,551
- 203
- 106
Conblues seems to suggest you don't need a degree, only a little self-training and a bit of hands-on experience. And that should be enough to check off those large checklists. And land you a $120k-$200k job soon.
I am surprised.
I'd like to know if my understanding of the word "expert" is wrong. Or maybe Conblues has rose-tinted glasses.
Comblues is spot on. These are exactly the type of qualifications (with emphasis on experience) we look for candidates at our organization.
It seems to me we are taking a simple question and beating it to death.
College versus Formal Education or Degree versus Certification.
Hmm...
Ok - So you go to school for 4+ years at a state university and owe about $60,000.00 in debt. Spend your time studying and doing the college thing and maybe a nice internship for 3-6 or even up to 12 months at the end of it.
You are worth about $30 to maybe 40k in the job market if you are very lucky.
Now if you take a $1000.00 and buy either a Microsoft Server/Workstation Lab with say Wireless and a Firewall (I say Cisco since I know you can do everything and the PIX 501 for $10.00 will do a lot of what the latest ASA can do for $100,000.00 it is a bargain on ebay).
Or if you buy the Cisco Press Books with a Network Simulator for a couple of hundred books sparkling new from the bookstore for say $200 or and maybe a cheap Cisco Lab CCIE Lab of 2600XM Routers, 3550 Switches, 2 PIX 515 Firewalls, and maybe an older Airespace/Cisco Wireless LAN Controller and at least 2 APs... of the same generation for maybe $1000.00
You can work on this for about 6-12 or maybe 18 months or so get a CCNA certification and even a CCNP certification and possibly a CCNA Voice/Security/Wireless certification - education at least.
Go out and start at $40-$50k on that 1st job as a simple network technician break-fix person.
Terminate a few cables, patch a few workstations, learn what a patch panel is, help some wi-fi users, and write a few access-lists, assign a few ports to some switches in a vlan, and fix DHCP and DNS problems when the systems people or users think the Internet is broke...
Do this for 1-3 years and now you are a $60k-95k network professional fully capable of becoming a full scale network engineer.
May sound rose-colored but I've helped way too many people do just this to think it cannot be done by a person who is motivated to do the job and has the spirit to work like this.
I've got an apprentice today who has 1 year reading time and the biggest thing she did up to starting studying for the CCENT lately was help me configure a few Cisco 3745 Routers and 3550 PoE Switches with about 20 IP Phones from scratch.
Now she's taking up learning the CCENT seriously, has learned IP Subnetting, is comfortable with the CLI and is on her way to her first interview as Network Technician for a Distributed Network that serves this county and at least one more county in the state next door.
She's just getting started and I'm sure guidedbyechos can run rings around her when it comes to setting up PC's at the moment and quite a few other things, but she's working hard and doors are starting to open.
She may not get this job on this first interview but she got the interview. It's a start.
And mostly every organization I've seen loves a certified candidate and the degree is nice to see but a recruiter will be blinded by the certs... they shine brighter and they are what the recruiter is scrutinizing for on a person's resume.
CERTS and RELEVANT RECENT EXPERIENCE gets the interview and helps get the job every time.
My advice - go on linkedin and hook up with a few recruiters and ask them what they are looking for in a "perfect candidate for a network engineer or systems engineer" and wait to see how long it is before the question of a degree comes into the conversation if it comes at all.
That's today's reality.
Remember mention - Microsoft MCITP or MCSE and Cisco CCNA/CCNP
It's called research. Maybe they'll say they need that degree.
I'm betting they will not.
If you ask them for their advice... see what they say.
Call at least 3 and compare your notes on the subject.
It's free and does not cost anything. They are the head hunters - try them out.
They are the gate keepers to the jobs...
If you need a list of recruiters who pay the rates I speak of - talk to me via PM and look at my linkedin profile - it's a gold mine for people who do look for and pay the prevailing rates.
Everyone knows what their own situation is.
If some people here think $50,000.00 is a high paying job and requires 10 years of experience to earn it, that's what they will tell you.
If some people here earn $60-80,000.00 in 5 years that's what they talk about and be speaking truthfully.
If some earn $100k and it took them x years and a degree, that's what they know.
I once spoke to a Dr. at a State University who spoke 3 or 4 languages and only earned some $26,000.00 or so and told me not to expect to earn much more since it was "ONLY" Central Florida... The year was 1994.
Why do people leave countries, New York, and California to come there to take such a pitiful drop in pay and lifestyle? Hint: It was not for Disney World.
HR will only pay you what you are used to making and that's it.
The first question most recruiters and HR folks want to know - What are you making now? What is your salary history? They are not trained or cultured to pay you more than you are worth. Period.
That's the biggest secret in the industry.
One of my friends called me - He works for a Cisco Gold Partner. They bill him out at $175.00 per hour to perform Cisco VoIP Migrations.
He only earns $50,000.00 +/- $1-2k bonus and he's been stuck at the same rate for 3+ years now and almost 4.
He had is CCNA when he started on their NOC (Help Desk).
He now has is CCNA Voice.
I've been out of touch with him for over 2+ years now... I told him I'd help him out and probably at least double his salary.
I had no idea one of the people I know was suffering for working for a company and not receiving at least an annual pay increase.
The funny part is he called me from one of my previous employers who I know what we used to pay a CCNP and a CCIE to do the same work that he's doing now about 11 years ago or so...
The CCNP was doing some $70-80k and the CCIE was six-digits - We paid some $300.00 per hour for his services (cheaper since the other Gold Partner charged us for a team of 3-4 CCIE's and some extra grunt work which was a lot more than $300.00 per hour for the CCIE).
The CCNP did precisely what my CCNA Voice friend is doing now.
He was pretty desperate for a job doing Cisco when he took the job.
Don't be desperate - EVER! Recruiters and HR folks are very good profilers and I do tend to believe you are tagged and labeled on first contact.
Think about it.
Comblues
Comblues
College versus Formal Education or Degree versus Certification.
Hmm...
Ok - So you go to school for 4+ years at a state university and owe about $60,000.00 in debt. Spend your time studying and doing the college thing and maybe a nice internship for 3-6 or even up to 12 months at the end of it.
You are worth about $30 to maybe 40k in the job market if you are very lucky.
Now if you take a $1000.00 and buy either a Microsoft Server/Workstation Lab with say Wireless and a Firewall (I say Cisco since I know you can do everything and the PIX 501 for $10.00 will do a lot of what the latest ASA can do for $100,000.00 it is a bargain on ebay).
Or if you buy the Cisco Press Books with a Network Simulator for a couple of hundred books sparkling new from the bookstore for say $200 or and maybe a cheap Cisco Lab CCIE Lab of 2600XM Routers, 3550 Switches, 2 PIX 515 Firewalls, and maybe an older Airespace/Cisco Wireless LAN Controller and at least 2 APs... of the same generation for maybe $1000.00
You can work on this for about 6-12 or maybe 18 months or so get a CCNA certification and even a CCNP certification and possibly a CCNA Voice/Security/Wireless certification - education at least.
Go out and start at $40-$50k on that 1st job as a simple network technician break-fix person.
Terminate a few cables, patch a few workstations, learn what a patch panel is, help some wi-fi users, and write a few access-lists, assign a few ports to some switches in a vlan, and fix DHCP and DNS problems when the systems people or users think the Internet is broke...
Do this for 1-3 years and now you are a $60k-95k network professional fully capable of becoming a full scale network engineer.
May sound rose-colored but I've helped way too many people do just this to think it cannot be done by a person who is motivated to do the job and has the spirit to work like this.
I've got an apprentice today who has 1 year reading time and the biggest thing she did up to starting studying for the CCENT lately was help me configure a few Cisco 3745 Routers and 3550 PoE Switches with about 20 IP Phones from scratch.
Now she's taking up learning the CCENT seriously, has learned IP Subnetting, is comfortable with the CLI and is on her way to her first interview as Network Technician for a Distributed Network that serves this county and at least one more county in the state next door.
She's just getting started and I'm sure guidedbyechos can run rings around her when it comes to setting up PC's at the moment and quite a few other things, but she's working hard and doors are starting to open.
She may not get this job on this first interview but she got the interview. It's a start.
And mostly every organization I've seen loves a certified candidate and the degree is nice to see but a recruiter will be blinded by the certs... they shine brighter and they are what the recruiter is scrutinizing for on a person's resume.
CERTS and RELEVANT RECENT EXPERIENCE gets the interview and helps get the job every time.
My advice - go on linkedin and hook up with a few recruiters and ask them what they are looking for in a "perfect candidate for a network engineer or systems engineer" and wait to see how long it is before the question of a degree comes into the conversation if it comes at all.
That's today's reality.
Remember mention - Microsoft MCITP or MCSE and Cisco CCNA/CCNP
It's called research. Maybe they'll say they need that degree.
I'm betting they will not.
If you ask them for their advice... see what they say.
Call at least 3 and compare your notes on the subject.
It's free and does not cost anything. They are the head hunters - try them out.
They are the gate keepers to the jobs...
If you need a list of recruiters who pay the rates I speak of - talk to me via PM and look at my linkedin profile - it's a gold mine for people who do look for and pay the prevailing rates.
Everyone knows what their own situation is.
If some people here think $50,000.00 is a high paying job and requires 10 years of experience to earn it, that's what they will tell you.
If some people here earn $60-80,000.00 in 5 years that's what they talk about and be speaking truthfully.
If some earn $100k and it took them x years and a degree, that's what they know.
I once spoke to a Dr. at a State University who spoke 3 or 4 languages and only earned some $26,000.00 or so and told me not to expect to earn much more since it was "ONLY" Central Florida... The year was 1994.
Why do people leave countries, New York, and California to come there to take such a pitiful drop in pay and lifestyle? Hint: It was not for Disney World.
HR will only pay you what you are used to making and that's it.
The first question most recruiters and HR folks want to know - What are you making now? What is your salary history? They are not trained or cultured to pay you more than you are worth. Period.
That's the biggest secret in the industry.
One of my friends called me - He works for a Cisco Gold Partner. They bill him out at $175.00 per hour to perform Cisco VoIP Migrations.
He only earns $50,000.00 +/- $1-2k bonus and he's been stuck at the same rate for 3+ years now and almost 4.
He had is CCNA when he started on their NOC (Help Desk).
He now has is CCNA Voice.
I've been out of touch with him for over 2+ years now... I told him I'd help him out and probably at least double his salary.
I had no idea one of the people I know was suffering for working for a company and not receiving at least an annual pay increase.
The funny part is he called me from one of my previous employers who I know what we used to pay a CCNP and a CCIE to do the same work that he's doing now about 11 years ago or so...
The CCNP was doing some $70-80k and the CCIE was six-digits - We paid some $300.00 per hour for his services (cheaper since the other Gold Partner charged us for a team of 3-4 CCIE's and some extra grunt work which was a lot more than $300.00 per hour for the CCIE).
The CCNP did precisely what my CCNA Voice friend is doing now.
He was pretty desperate for a job doing Cisco when he took the job.
Don't be desperate - EVER! Recruiters and HR folks are very good profilers and I do tend to believe you are tagged and labeled on first contact.
Think about it.
Comblues
Comblues
The point is how do you get from point a to point b and what different routes are possible. I'm just starting out so the point of this thread is what are my options and what should I work on before I'm paying 3-400 dollars on something that will not help me complete my goal or its completely over my head.
As for the network issue last night my biggest problem was I was told the holes were drilled so I could route the wire and they weren't. Layer 8 problem, user.
1. Workstation or Laptop
2. PC Server
3. 2-3 Routers (I love Cisco and 2600/3600's are dirt cheap)
4. 3 Switches (Spanning-Tree and Load Balancing)
5. Some Cables
6. Free Software
7. Some type of Wireless
Have fun.
Build and re-build. Practice. Practice. Practice. Lots of free resources to do it with.
Comblues
From what I see it could take some time but I could buy all of that stuff. No idea where I would put it since I live in an apartment.
- Oct 25, 1999
- 29,474
- 387
- 126
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