Netscape's dead. No one cares.

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Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
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<< not me and i'm very glad MS started bundling IE with Windows. an internet browser should have been standard issue with the purchase of a computer. Netscape could have done the same as MS but unfortunately, that was the only product they had so if they gave it away, where would their real income come from? IMHO, they had a very short-sighted business model and lost out to MS. too bad but i'm not shedding any tears about it. >>



If they want to bundle their browser, they should also make it possible for OEM's to include rival browser. And MS-browser should be compatible with open industry-strandards. IE has proprietary extensions that work only with IE. The risk is that in the future the Internet might only be accessible with MS-browser that only runs on MS-OS. And none of us wants that do we? There are already websites that only work with IE.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< Hell they could not even make DOS themselves when they started out, they had to steal the code also. >>

Well, Gates bought DOS. Buying the code and stealing the code are not the same thing, though I admit Microsoft has thieved a few things in the past.
 

flavio

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
6,823
1
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<< . IE has proprietary extensions that work only with IE. The risk is that in the future the Internet might only be accessible with MS-browser that only runs on MS-OS. And none of us wants that do we? There are already websites that only work with IE. >>




Amen to that.

 

koshnarn

Junior Member
Nov 18, 2001
9
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Since AOL took over Netscape it has went down hill fast. Where I work, we develop web based applications and they all work fine with the verions that are less than 6, but when 6 was released, we had nothing but problems. So we started designing the apps to work with IE. Just trying to figure out why did AOL decide to ruin a perfectly good product when they decided to improve it. Well now, AOL/Netscape fiasco has swayed the upper management to embrace Microsoft. Oh when will the madness stop!?!?!
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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<< Since AOL took over Netscape it has went down hill fast. Where I work, we develop web based applications and they all work fine with the verions that are less than 6, but when 6 was released, we had nothing but problems. So we started designing the apps to work with IE. >>



Maybe I'm crazy or something but why don't you design your apps so that they are 100% compatible with the W3C-standard?
 

SinfulWeeper

Diamond Member
Sep 2, 2000
4,567
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<<

<< Hell they could not even make DOS themselves when they started out, they had to steal the code also. >>

Well, Gates bought DOS. Buying the code and stealing the code are not the same thing, though I admit Microsoft has thieved a few things in the past.
>>



Not true. Gates and his team were hired to fix bugs in a DOS OS, I forgot the exact name, but they copied code after code and just added their own fixes. You may recall the IBM era of DOS or not, but the end result was it was settled. M$ had to pay millions to that company and IBM offered two DOS operating systems. One was ?-DOS and MS-DOS. The company that Gates and his hooligans stole the code from thought no one would buy IBM PC's because it became publically known that M$ was a bunch of theives. Well M$ did no original programming of their own so they offered their 'own' version of MS-DOS at a substancially lower price than the people they took the code from.

Being a bunch of cunning theives is how they became mainstream. Why do you think they worry so much about their current source code getting out. They don't want what they did to that other company to happen to them.

But now this is getting off the Netscape dead issue, so I had enough of remembering the past.
 

SinfulWeeper

Diamond Member
Sep 2, 2000
4,567
11
81


<< Maybe I'm crazy or something but why don't you design your apps so that they are 100% compatible with the W3C-standard? >>



True there. Than any browser will be able to properly see the page.
 

GigaCluster

Golden Member
Aug 12, 2001
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I feel that Microsoft is innocent in this regard. It is totally their choice whether or not to bundle their web browser with their operating system. It is also entirely their choice whether or not to allow OEMs to bundle Netscape with their operating system.

If someone does not like Microsoft's practices, no one is forcing them to use it. They are a company, and they have the right to do whatever they want to their operating system. They don't owe anyone anything. Everyone has the choice to use their products or not to use them.

As tcsenter mentioned in his excellent post, "Every industry does it, its called "improving the product" by "adding features or function". What's next, Microsoft being accused of "bundling" system utilities (defrag or backup) with its OS, hurting third-party utility makers like Symantec (Norton Utilities) or Veritas?"
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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<< M$ had to pay millions to that company and IBM offered two DOS operating systems. One was ?-DOS and MS-DOS. >>



PC-DOS? There was a third alternative also: DR-DOS. It was considerably superior to MS-DOS, it has several features that MS-DOS didn't get for a long time. But that product was sabotaged when MS altered Win3.x in such way that it would report error-messages when ran on top on DR-DOS, even though there really were no problems when using DR-DOS instead of MS-DOS together with Win3.x. Basically, Win3.x checked what version & manufacturer of the underlying DOS was, and if it was other than MS-DOS, it would show error-messages. The company behind DR-DOS (Caldera if I remember correctly) sued MS, and MS settled outside of court.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,939
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<< If you use your monopoly of one business to gain unfair advantage on another business, then yes, it is unfair abuse of your monopoly power. MS has monopoly of the OS-business, and they used that monopoly to gain dominant position in the web-browser business. >>

Load your Netscape onto a computer without an OS or a hard drive. Better yet, put your Netscape CD on the kitchen table, attach a couple alligator clips to the edge of the CD and connect them to a battery, try to get your Netscape browser to do something.

Starting to see the picture? Browsers are NOT a "different" market. Software is NOT a "different" market. Hardware is NOT a "different" market. Software is inextricably tied to hardware, thus are their markets. There is ONLY the "computer" market, to which ALL these things belong.

Microsoft has ALWAYS been a "software" company (Micro "SOFT" - get it?), not exclusively an "OS" company (with the exception of the very early Altair and DOS years, long before MS has a monopoly on anything). You need only ask...is a browser considered "software"? If yes, it could never be credibly or believably argued that MS has somehow entered into a "different" market by producing SOFTWARE (a browser). Its absurd on its face, and baseless in principle.

Its like trying to argue the "camera" market is different from the "film" market, and that a dominant camera company has no business making film. Better yet, that the COLOR film "business" is different than the black and white film "business", thus no company who produces color film can produce black and white film. Or a 35mm film maker has no business making film for disc cameras, they are "different" markets.

Our antitrust laws were written at the turn of the century to address turn of the century problems (banking, railroad, oil, etc.). Most antitrust experts agree the antitrust laws are an antiquated and inappropriate solution for modern issues and need to be rewritten.
 

SinfulWeeper

Diamond Member
Sep 2, 2000
4,567
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DR-DOS is still available I do believe :cool::frown:

I suppose people can than easily run DOS programs in WinXP. :p
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
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<< I feel that Microsoft is innocent in this regard. It is totally their choice whether or not to bundle their web browser with their operating system. It is also entirely their choice whether or not to allow OEMs to bundle Netscape with their operating system. >>



But it's illegal. MS has monopoly on the OS-market. OEM's depend on their Windows-licenses. If MS blackmails OEM's with that ("If you ship Netscape, we will double your license-cost"), it means that they are abusing that monopoly to kill competition, and it's illegal. And you could ask what right MS has to tell OEM's what they can and can't ship with THEIR computers?
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< You may recall the IBM era of DOS or not, but the end result was it was settled. M$ had to pay millions to that company and IBM offered two DOS operating systems. One was ?-DOS and MS-DOS. >>

I recall the IBM DOS era, albiet vaguely, but I don't remember this, I'll have to dig around and read up on it. Thanks for the note.
 

WilsonTung

Senior member
Aug 25, 2001
487
0
0
I stopped using Netscape after IE 4 because IE had a cleaner interface and rendered pages faster. And no, I don't beleive that bundling IE caused Netscape to die.

MS Bundles MSN Messanger with Windows, but I don't use it. I use AIM. I just dislike the MSN Messanger interface.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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What's Good for Microsoft . . .

October 20, 1998
By T.J. Rodgers - CEO Cypress Semiconductor


The Justice Department is suing Microsoft for the antitrust offenses of "tying" and "predatory pricing." It claims that Microsoft illegally tied its Internet browser to its Windows software because the company sells them only as a package, and that it was selling the package below cost because it didn't raise the price of Windows when it added the browser.

If Microsoft loses this antitrust case, every high-technology company will be in the Justice Department's gun sights, because we all do business just like Microsoft. The Silicon Valley chief executives who are siding with the Government to one-up a rival should be supporting Microsoft on basic principles.

In 1994, my company sold for $12.31 all the silicon chips needed to run a small computer: the memory to store programs ($4.16), the memory to store data ($3.99) and the "microcontroller," a small stand-alone computer that is the brains of the system ($4.16).

But a few months ago, we "tied" all of those chips together, to use antitrust jargon.

We created a chip that performed the functions that previously required three chips, and we cut the price by a "predatory" 92 percent, to just 95 cents.

We would not have survived without "tying" (which Silicon Valley refers to as creating a "system-on-a-chip") and "predatory pricing" (known to us as "learning-curve pricing").

Tying and price cutting - adding more value for less money - is what high-technology companies do. Apparently, the lawsuit against Microsoft is its penalty for being too successful at it. To consumers, however, "predatory pricing" means that a computer that costs $700 today has 50,000 times the power of a $5 million 1951 Univac mainframe computer.

Jim Barksdale, chief executive of the Netscape Communications Corporation, has complained that Microsoft competes unfairly in the Internet browser market. Yet Netscape itself is a master of predatory pricing. When we were evaluating which browser to use on our company computers, I favored Microsoft's Internet Explorer because it is more compatible with the Microsoft spreadsheets and word processors we already use.

But I lost out on that option because our engineers had already downloaded and begun to use more than 200 free copies of the Netscape browser, and that meant we were committed.

Once Netscape had us (and 85 percent of the browser market), it charged us $152,000 for 1,300 copies of its browser. It turns out that Netscape's real software - not the version it gives away, but the software for which it provides technical support - isn't free at all. If Microsoft violated the law by giving away browsers, why didn't Netscape?

Illogic abounds in the case against Microsoft. The company is in trouble for selling its product below cost at the same time that the Senate Judiciary Committee has castigated it for making a profit of more than 20 percent.

But can Microsoft really be cheating customers when, at a price of only $99, Windows 98 delivers a more complex program than many million-dollar mainframe software packages do? For years, Microsoft has enhanced Windows with new features - spreadsheets, word processors, fax utilities, etc. - but somehow it crossed an arbitrary line by adding a browser.

The Justice Department has a point when it complains that Microsoft has a big advantage in marketing new features it adds to Windows. But Microsoft earned that advantage with years of work and billions of well-invested dollars.

The Justice Department has a long history of penalizing winners just because they're winners. In 1945, Judge Learned Hand convicted Aluminum Company of America of antitrust violations with this rationalization:

"It was not inevitable that [Alcoa] should always anticipate increases in the demand for ingot and be prepared to supply them . . . before others entered the field. It insists that it never excluded competitors; but we can think of no more effective exclusion than progressively to embrace each new opportunity as it opened." In other words, it was punished for competently building its business.

It's hard to believe that Silicon Valley executives would embrace the logic of the Hand decision, but they have. Scott NcNealy, the chief executive of Sun Microsystems, a Microsoft rival, has said, "Government has to come in and discipline [Microsoft] until the rest of the world catches up."

What if it's our Japanese competitors that do the catching up while the Justice Department is hobbling Silicon Valley?
Scott McNealy is not alone in supporting the litigation. Lawrence Ellison, the chief executive of the Oracle Corporation, the second-largest software company behind Microsoft, failed with a plan to replace PC's with network computers so that Oracle's software could replace Windows.

Mr. Ellison now wants the courts to take from Microsoft what he was incapable of earning in the free market: he recently told an audience at Harvard that "every American of voting age should file a suit against Microsoft."

But using the courts to regulate the marketplace - a hypocrisy Ayn Rand called "a free market, enforced by law" - brings on debacles like the Justice Department's antitrust case against I.B.M., which wasted 13 years and billions of dollars for both the company and taxpayers.

During that period, the free market succeeded where the lawsuit failed: companies like Sun Microsystems, Netscape and Oracle were founded and became important competitors, solving the I.B.M. "monopoly problem" at no public cost. Winning by politics is antithetical to the free-market competition that underpins Silicon Valley's success.

The Justice Department isn't just attacking Microsoft; it's attacking the way Microsoft does business - and, by extension, the way most successful high-technology companies do business.

I deplore this unwarranted action. I hope that my fellow Silicon Valley chief executives will put aside their short-term competitive urges to stand together against the Government's intrusion into our enterprises, which, if successful, will make all Americans less well off.


Copyright (c) 1998 New York Times
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0


<< Load your Netscape onto a computer without an OS or a hard drive. Better yet, put your Netscape CD on the kitchen table, attach a couple alligator clips to the edge of the CD and connect them to a battery, try to get your Netscape browser to do something.

Starting to see the picture? Browsers are NOT a "different" market. Software is NOT a "different" market. Hardware is NOT a "different" market. Software is inextricably tied to hardware, thus are their markets. There is ONLY the "computer" market, to which ALL these things belong.
>>



Yes they are different market. Browsers are applications that run on top of the OS. Both are software, but that doesn't make the same in market-sense. By controlling the platform (OS) MS has unfair advantage over it's rivals because they can use their control of the platform to push their products in different segments (this can be seen for example in MSN (bundled with IE which is bundled with Windows) and Media Player)



<< Microsoft has ALWAYS been a "software" company (Micro "SOFT" - get it?), not exclusively an "OS" company >>



Did I claim that they are or should be OS-company only? I just said that they are abusing their monopoly in the OS-business to push their other products.



<< ...is a browser considered "software"? >>



Yes it is



<< If yes, it could never be credibly or believably argued that MS has somehow entered into a "different" market by producing SOFTWARE (a browser). Its absurd on its face, and baseless in principle. >>



Yes, MS did enter in to a different market-segment when they produced their browser. And courts agreed. "Software" is not one monolithic business, it has several segments (OS, web-servers, applications, databases etc.)



<< Its like trying to argue the "camera" market is different from the "film" market, and that a dominant camera company has no business making film. Better yet, that the COLOR film "business" is different than the black and white film "business", thus no company who produces color film can produce black and white film. Or a 35mm film maker has no business making film for disc cameras, they are "different" markets. >>



Sure you can make cameras and film. But if you have a monopoly in either, you can abuse that monopoly to push your products in the other market.

I really find it surprising that you can't see where MS broke the law!
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
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Does Cypress have a monopoly? Last time I checked, there were ALOT of eletronics/semiconductor manufacturers in the world! And Cypress cut prices, price of Windows isn't dropping (in fact it's the ONLY piece of your computer that has not been dropping in price over the years)

People from rival companies have admitted that they too would propably have acted in similar way to MS. But that doesn't make MS's actions any better. They broke the law, plain and simple. They have a monopoly, and they abused that monopoly. Those are facts.

EDIT: And then there's the old argument: "Hurting MS would hurt the economy!". Bullsh!t! MS has left a wake of destruction behind it. How many businesses have been run to ground because they happened to be in MS's path? How much has technological advance slowed down because MS hasn't had real competition in years? Remember: competiton forsters innovation. MS is anything but innovative.

Leaving MS alone hurts the economy more than punishing MS would.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
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<< I really find it surprising that you can't see where MS broke the law! >>

For one, the antitrust law is not nor was it intended to be objective and clearly defined, it is highly arbitrary with grey areas. In the same manner that IRS tax law is patterned more after an administrative rule or arbitration law as opposed to criminal law, so is antitrust law. It is all but CLEAR that Microsoft broke the law WRT its "bundling" of a browser. If it ultimately did break the law, that doesn't mean what Microsoft did was "wrong", and the law should (and will eventually) be changed.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
0


<<
<< not me and i'm very glad MS started bundling IE with Windows. an internet browser should have been standard issue with the purchase of a computer. Netscape could have done the same as MS but unfortunately, that was the only product they had so if they gave it away, where would their real income come from? IMHO, they had a very short-sighted business model and lost out to MS. too bad but i'm not shedding any tears about it. >>



If they want to bundle their browser, they should also make it possible for OEM's to include rival browser. And MS-browser should be compatible with open industry-strandards. IE has proprietary extensions that work only with IE. The risk is that in the future the Internet might only be accessible with MS-browser that only runs on MS-OS. And none of us wants that do we? There are already websites that only work with IE.
>>


this is bs. if i'm not mistaken, Netscape had a full year advantage over MS in the browser business. what did Netscape do? nothing. they were quite content to keep on charging for their browser and did not pursue the OEM market. they dropped the ball and MS picked it up and ran with it.
 

novon

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,711
0
0
woooooooohooooooooo! good news for web designers, they shouldnt be such sore losers, netscape sucked since IE4 came out
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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<< It is all but CLEAR that Microsoft broke the law WRT its "bundling" of browsers. >>



OK, let's go through this one by one:

1. MS has a monopoly in the OS market.
2. OEM's are dependant on MS and on their Windows-licenses.
3. MS wanted to control the Internet Browser-market
4. Easiest and quickest way to achieve that was to "leverage windows" (as said on internal MS memo).
5. MS then proceeded to bundle their browser on their OS (which, if you remember, has a monopoly)
6. They also blackmailed OEM's to not include Netscape in their computers
7. As a result, Netscapes market-share crashed from 70+% to about 20% in very short period of time
8. Netscapes "air-supply" (as said on MS-memo) was cut.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
0
0


<<

<< If they want to bundle their browser, they should also make it possible for OEM's to include rival browser. And MS-browser should be compatible with open industry-strandards. IE has proprietary extensions that work only with IE. The risk is that in the future the Internet might only be accessible with MS-browser that only runs on MS-OS. And none of us wants that do we? There are already websites that only work with IE.
>>


this is bs. if i'm not mistaken, Netscape had a full year advantage over MS in the browser business. what did Netscape do? nothing. they were quite content to keep on charging for their browser and did not pursue the OEM market. they dropped the ball and MS picked it up and ran with it.
>>



What exactly does your comment have to do with my post? What I posted was the truth, there already are websites that only work properly on IE. There are also websites that work only on Windows.
 

tcsenter

Lifer
Sep 7, 2001
18,939
569
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<< Does Cypress have a monopoly? Last time I checked, there were ALOT of eletronics/semiconductor manufacturers in the world! And Cypress cut prices, price of Windows isn't dropping (in fact it's the ONLY piece of your computer that has not been dropping in price over the years) >>

It doesn't matter. What Rogers is saying is that what is clearly considered "valid" business practices are "valid" business practices no matter the status of a company's market share.

If it is "valid" for a company with a small market share to engage in practice A, then it is a baseless position to arbitrarily "deem" Practice A to be "abuse" if done by a company with a huge market share. The practice isn't different, only the company's respective position in the market place.

IOW, its perfectly ok to engage in certain practices, so long as you're not really successful with it. Absurd.
 

Nemesis77

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2001
7,329
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<< It doesn't matter. What Rogers is saying is that what is clearly considered "valid" business practices are "valid" business practices no matter the status of a company's market share.

If it is "valid" for a company with a small market share to engage in practice A, then it is a baseless position to arbitrarily "deem" Practice A to be "abuse" if done by a company with a huge market share. The practice isn't different, only the company's respective position in the market place.

IOW, its perfectly ok to engage in certain practices, so long as you're not really successful with it. Absurd.
>>



No, no, no. Having a monopoly isn't illegal. But using that monopoly to push your other products is considered abuse of that monopoly and it's illegal. Law it the law. What's right for one company is not OK for a company that has a monopoly. monoplies reduce competition, and competition is good. Abusing monopoly does nothing good for the economy or the public in general. Products should be able to compete on their merit alone, not because they are bundled alongside another product that you have to have because there are no other alternatives. That's what MS did with IE. NEtscape and IE didn't have level playing-field, one was installed by default on 90+% of world PC's, other was not.
 

jjones

Lifer
Oct 9, 2001
15,424
2
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<< What exactly does your comment have to do with my post? What I posted was the truth, there already are websites that only work properly on IE. There are also websites that work only on Windows. >>


it has everything to do with your post. who are developers designing their web sites around? IE of course. why? because MS saw to it that their browser was distributed. MS is not creating the web sites, developers are.