Netflix - Making a Murderer

[Don Vito Corleone]

Spoiler

So you don't think there was significant evidence of evidence planting/tampering? Or was that the way the documentary was laid out?

Also, what about the lack of DNA/Blood? Doesn't it seem very strange that there would be no blood - (and what about the ropes/chains/murder weapon?) If he's dumb enough to leave the car on the lot, and bones on the land...how would they not have found anything else?

Spoiler

I do find that odd. Dassey said they removed the sheets/mattress pad from the bed and burned it, and did the same thing with Avery's clothes. I would not think that would have dealt with that much blood, but I don't have expertise or experience in that.

Dassey said Avery intended to crush or burn the car, but that had obviously not happened before it was found. To me the bones are hard to explain no matter what. Dassey said they burned her and Avery broke up the bones with a shovel, and that some of them were moved to two other locations (as in fact occurred). As odd as that sounds, it is what he said, and what the evidence shows. I don't find it inconceivable that Avery and Dassey would have been sloppy - they are, after all, not the sharpest tools in the shed.

 

[echo4747]

FWIW: Hacker group Anonymous is helping the 'Making a Murderer' convict and says it'll release critical new documents

http://www.techinsider.io/anonymous-helps-making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-2015-12

 

[slayer202]

did they defeat isis yet? a bunch of dumb fucking children

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

FWIW: Hacker group Anonymous is helping the 'Making a Murderer' convict and says it'll release critical new documents

http://www.techinsider.io/anonymous-helps-making-a-murderer-subject-steven-avery-2015-12

They better turn up information that is not crap. And what do phone records mean? Are we talking transcripts of some sort or just the fact that they spoke at certain times on the phone?

And what is a "Gathering List" of photos taken? Or is that just some broken English?

They say they will release info on Tuesday. Well, that's right now!

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Oh, I watched some Kurt Cobain documentary last night. THey try to make an argument that he was murdered. It was pretty much know that:
1) Kurt had so much narcotics in his system that he would be unconscious or dead when he killed himself.
2) Kurt and Courtney were pretty much done with ... divorce pending
2a) Kurt was even told his lawyer to take her off his will a few days before the "suicide"
3) In a divorce, Courntey would not get much money

Weird crap: In Washington, the first cops on the scene can declare a suicide as such. So there was not even a murder investigation. There were implications which I won't bring up since they would spoil things more than I already have)

 

[11thHour]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/29/entertainment/making-a-murderer-netflix-feat/index.html

 

[Chiropteran]

I have now watched the entire thing.

Spoiler

I have read the transcripts of the interviews of Brendan Dassey - they are at http://www.convolutedbrian.com/dassey_confessions_links.html (I have not listened to the audio or watched the video, however). To me the questioning is not unduly suggestive as a whole, and there's no question he is the one who originates much of the relevant information. In places he has included corroborated, incriminating details that were never referenced in the movie (e.g., he states that he and Avery put the car by the pit on the property, and Avery covered it with sticks and a car hood, which was in fact the way it was found, and he also states that Avery put the body in the car before deciding to burn it - this would account for the presence of bloodstains in the back of the car consistent with her bloody head touching the interior of the cargo area of the car). He also refuses to agree to certain things that are suggested by the detectives (e.g., he is adamant that he did not shoot Teresa Haibach despite being asked repeatedly whether he did). Certainly if I had conducted this interview I would be left with the impression that he was telling the truth. I was also troubled by the trial testimony by the female cousin, who told the authorities in March that Brendan had lost weight and seemed really upset for months after Halloween, and told her about the body being in the fire. I know she recanted at trial, but I thought this was still a fairly persuasive piece of prosecution evidence.

The Dassey interrogation and interviews occurred months after the murder. The information he provides re: the vehicle and such could be from his memory of news reports and such.

 

[SSSnail]

The Dassey interrogation and interviews occurred months after the murder. The information he provides re: the vehicle and such could be from his memory of news reports and such.

Most of it, if not all, was suggested to him.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The Dassey interrogation and interviews occurred months after the murder. The information he provides re: the vehicle and such could be from his memory of news reports and such.

Spoiler

Possibly, but the show really doesn't make the case for that having occurred.

Most of it, if not all, was suggested to him.

Spoiler

If you read the transcripts that really isn't true. Certainly there are some suggestive questions, but the movie, in my view, greatly exaggerates the extent to which that was the case. He volunteered a great deal of incriminating information himself, and, in other instances, resisted their efforts to suggest incriminating answers. I am not saying he is guilty but if I had been one of the investigators I would certainly have believed he was based on his answers.

 

[Artdeco]

DVC, would you have argued diminished capacity for either defendant?

 

[ImpulsE69]

Spoiler

Possibly, but the show really doesn't make the case for that having occurred.

Actually they made it very clear it was 3 months afterwards. The timeline was skewed I imagine, but they said it repeatedly.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Actually they made it very clear it was 3 months afterwards. The timeline was skewed I imagine, but they said it repeatedly.

Spoiler

Oh I know it was 3 months afterward - what I meant was that they didn't say Brendan had learned of these details from TV or anywhere else. Obviously it's possible he did, but given the pro-defense slant of the show I'd expect them to have clearly laid that out.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

DVC, would you have argued diminished capacity for either defendant?

Spoiler

No, probably not. They are both of borderline-normal intelligence. I suspect both would be in the mainstream range for intelligence for people in prison for similar crimes (though of course that is a fairly broad range, and includes some relatively intelligent people as well). I do think there were valid arguments for suppressing Brendan's statements, but those were (apparently) made and rejected.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Most of it, if not all, was suggested to him.

Alot of hte things he said were first said by the interogators.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Actually they made it very clear it was 3 months afterwards. The timeline was skewed I imagine, but they said it repeatedly.

The documentary unfortunatly jumps aounf the timeline alot. it is difficult to watch episodes 2-6 (or 7) and keep track of the order of events. Probably an attempt to fool us into thinking that there are more "conflicts" than there really are.

 

[SSSnail]

Spoiler

Possibly, but the show really doesn't make the case for that having occurred.

Spoiler

If you read the transcripts that really isn't true. Certainly there are some suggestive questions, but the movie, in my view, greatly exaggerates the extent to which that was the case. He volunteered a great deal of incriminating information himself, and, in other instances, resisted their efforts to suggest incriminating answers. I am not saying he is guilty but if I had been one of the investigators I would certainly have believed he was based on his answers.

Spoiler

There were a lot of instances where the interrogator put thoughts in his head, and made suggestive questions such as "what did you to to her head, with the gun"? Or, "draw on the paper how she was tied to the bed with the chains"... These weren't exaggerations, but they were documented when showing the interviewing/interrogation videos.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

Spoiler

No, probably not. They are both of borderline-normal intelligence. I suspect both would be in the mainstream range for intelligence for people in prison for similar crimes (though of course that is a fairly broad range, and includes some relatively intelligent people as well). I do think there were valid arguments for suppressing Brendan's statements, but those were (apparently) made and rejected.

I am rewatching the serieis. I missed it but the first time thy said Steve Avery has a low IQ (in the 70s). The young kids IQ I do remember from my first go through. The kid also had an IQ i nthe 70s.

Regardless of age, I don't know how anything can be used in court if someone doesn't understand the consequences of their actions. I sy this in regards to the interview of the kid. He thought he was going to be done soon and back to school . He was asking if they would have him back to school by a certain time. He clearly had no idea that there was a corelation between him admitting to be involved in the murder and him not going home that day. It's in part due to his age and in part due to IQ. Blows me away. An adult or higher IQ indidual clearly would have asked for a lawyer. Even Steve didn't know to ask for a lawyer when he was inerogated.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Spoiler

There were a lot of instances where the interrogator put thoughts in his head, and made suggestive questions such as "what did you to to her head, with the gun"? Or, "draw on the paper how she was tied to the bed with the chains"...

Spoiler

I would encourage you to read the transcripts. Certainly some things were suggested but I was surprised by the amount that was not. In that sense I think the filmmakers took liberties, to imply that the entire confession was the result of suggestions made by the investigators. The transcripts really don't bear that out. I can't say the transcripts conclusively prove Dassey's guilt, but they made me much less certain of his innocence.

 

[SSSnail]

Spoiler

I would encourage you to read the transcripts. Certainly some things were suggested but I was surprised by the amount that was not. In that sense I think the filmmakers took liberties, to imply that the entire confession was the result of suggestions made by the investigators. The transcripts really don't bear that out. I can't say the transcripts conclusively prove Dassey's guilt, but they made me much less certain of his innocence.

Spoiler

What's your thought on police from an agency that was being sued by the accused showed up on the crime scene to investigate something that they have no jurisdiction in and was told to stay away?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Spoiler

What's your thought on police from an agency that was being sued by the accused showed up on the crime scene to investigate something that they have no jurisdiction in?

Spoiler

To be fair, they absolutely had jurisdiction - the murder happened in their county. The only reason they were not supposed to be involved in the investigation was that the county had (wisely IMO) decided to leave them out of it because Avery's lawsuit against the county was ongoing. I do think it was unwise that the sheriff's department be involved in the investigation due to the conflict of interest, and the fact that they were involved anyway lends itself to the argument that they planted or messed with evidence. Certainly the defense had a chance to point that out at trial, and did so.

I frankly think it's likely the investigators who found the key either planted it or manipulated it. I am less convinced when it comes to the bullet fragment. They had looked in the garage in November but, until Brendan Dassey told them the shooting had occurred in the garage in March, may have had no way of knowing that a bullet or partial bullet would be found there. Interestingly, Dassey does describe Avery taking extensive efforts to clean the garage, so either he missed the bullet during the cleanup or the investigators planted it. The fact that the investigators manipulated evidence (if they did) obviously does not conclusively mean that Avery and/or Dassey are innocent - it just means that some portion of the case against them was based on misleading evidence.

Notably, the investigators who got the confession out of Brendan Dassey worked for the state, not Manitowoc or Calumet counties, and had nothing to do with the rape case against Avery.

 

[SSSnail]

Spoiler

To be fair, they absolutely had jurisdiction - the murder happened in their county. The only reason they were not supposed to be involved in the investigation was that the county had (wisely IMO) decided to leave them out of it because Avery's lawsuit against the county was ongoing. I do think it was unwise that the sheriff's department be involved in the investigation due to the conflict of interest, and the fact that they were involved anyway lends itself to the argument that they planted or messed with evidence. Certainly the defense had a chance to point that out at trial, and did so.

I frankly think it's likely the investigators who found the key either planted it or manipulated it. I am less convinced when it comes to the bullet fragment. They had looked in the garage in November but, until Brendan Dassey told them the shooting had occurred in the garage in March, may have had no way of knowing that a bullet or partial bullet would be found there. Interestingly, Dassey does describe Avery taking extensive efforts to clean the garage, so either he missed the bullet during the cleanup or the investigators planted it. The fact that the investigators manipulated evidence (if they did) obviously does not conclusively mean that Avery and/or Dassey are innocent - it just means that some portion of the case against them was based on misleading evidence.

Notably, the investigators who got the confession out of Brendan Dassey worked for the state, not Manitowoc or Calumet counties, and had nothing to do with the rape case against Avery.

Spoiler

The story and capabilities seem to be contradicting which have been argued in this thread. I mean, if Avery was so meticulous at cleaning so that forensic science cannot find any traces anywhere, yet he leaves a lot of evidence in the most obvious places. He's either the smartest criminal alive that sets the crime scene up for reasonable doubt, or he has a split personality disorder that we don't know about. And yes, they all ultimately work for the state .

 

[ImpulsE69]

That's what I keep saying SSSnail. There are too many 'missing' elements to someone lacking the brainpower to hide a car, a key and bones, but somehow the murder weapons, the chains, and all blood evidence that would go along with this version of the story...unless the guy is Dexter, and just simply ran out of time, but if so..why let them on the property to search, and seem so calm knowing the evidence is right there...

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Spoiler

This article - http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php - contains some incriminating details that were not mentioned on the show, including the fact that Avery had repeatedly asked that Halbach personally take pictures of his cars, the fact that he had called her three times (twice using a caller ID block) the day of her disappearance, the fact that she had complained that on a prior occasion he was only wearing a towel when she arrived, the fact that he had bought handcuffs and leg irons similar to those described by Dassey in the weeks prior to the murder, and the fact that her phone and camera were found in Avery's burn barrel (just where Dassey had said Avery put them to burn them).

 

[ImpulsE69]

Spoiler

This article - http://www.pajiba.com/netflix_movie...-evidence-making-a-murderer-didnt-present.php - contains some incriminating details that were not mentioned on the show, including the fact that Avery had repeatedly asked that Halbach personally take pictures of his cars, the fact that he had called her three times (twice using a caller ID block) the day of her disappearance, the fact that she had complained that on a prior occasion he was only wearing a towel when she arrived, the fact that he had bought handcuffs and leg irons similar to those described by Dassey in the weeks prior to the murder, and the fact that her phone and camera were found in Avery's burn barrel (just where Dassey had said Avery put them to burn them).

Spoiler

Interesting read. Makes you wonder if all the 'questions' that seemed dropped in the documentary were purposely left out. For example the phone calls Theresa was getting that day. They never said in the doc who it was. Here it sounds like it was Avery. Also the leg irons woudl be another.

Will be curious if this is some sort of social engineering experiment, and season 2 will be the prosecutors side.

 

[SSSnail]

Is this the transcript you're referring to https://www.dropbox.com/s/ej65jscjwgcpqtc/Transcript - 05-12-2006 - Dassey and O'Kelly.pdf?dl=0?

Because, reading that is even more painful that watching it on TV.