Netanyahu is spouting hate speech again.

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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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cause and effect.

I see the attacks on israel as the cause. the embargos the effect.

I dont see hamas showing any good faith and stop the rocket launching or releasing gilad shalit.


why should israel keep giving things away in good faith and have nothing in return?

they left gaza in 2000, now they have an enemy.
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Lets see if I can get my arms around your contention FGD, in 1948 Israel stole all the land from the Palestinians now in Gaza, Israel and Egypt still co-operated together to embargo their economy, and now you belatedly wonder why the residents of Gaza don't just love Israel circa year 2K.

Who would have possibly ever thunk it as some cause and effect relationship? And somehow the residents of the hell hole that is Gaza would possible want the right to return to the land Israel stole from them in 1948.

For sure for sure, the Palestinians mothers are knitting little doilies that say, home sweet concentration camp home.

But gotta admit FGD, you have a great peace deal there, let the Palestinians have their land in Israel back and the Israeli's can have Gaza.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
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Lets see if I can get my arms around your contention FGD, in 1948 Israel stole all the land from the Palestinians now in Gaza, Israel and Egypt still co-operated together to embargo their economy, and now you belatedly wonder why the residents of Gaza don't just love Israel circa year 2K.

Who would have possibly ever thunk it as some cause and effect relationship? And somehow the residents of the hell hole that is Gaza would possible want the right to return to the land Israel stole from them in 1948.

For sure for sure, the Palestinians mothers are knitting little doilies that say, home sweet concentration camp home.

But gotta admit FGD, you have a great peace deal there, let the Palestinians have their land in Israel back and the Israeli's can have Gaza.


ISRAEL STOLE NOTHING!


they legally bought land from the natives before 1948.

land was appropriated by the UN in the 1947 partition plan. Israel didnt steal jack shit then.

I bet plenty of jews lost their land in the partition.




then, arab nations attacked.

israel defended itself.



P.S. You never answered my post in the previous thread, so I dont know what your answer is.

how many of the 750k that were displaced fall on each of the 4 questions?


P.P.S- How many of the actual people from 1948 still are alive to ask for the land back? or is it the grandchildren asking for something they never saw, had, felt, owned, lived on, been near, knew about?


shall I demand money, land, property, from germany because my grandparents had to flee from poland, a place I have never been to?
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
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FGD says, "ISRAEL STOLE NOTHING!"

And then goes to a long series of 1/4 to half truths. And even better, now claims because most of the Palestinians Israel stole land from 62 years ago are now dead, they have no rights, when the entire cornerstone of Jews reclaiming the holy land of Israel is based on being missing from those same lands for 1800 years.

Even if we accept 1/4 of your claims, its still a matter that Israeli Jews stole everything from Palestinians. Nor can you blame it on the Arab States attacking, because the Palestinians did not.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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FGD says, "ISRAEL STOLE NOTHING!"

And then goes to a long series of 1/4 to half truths. And even better, now claims because most of the Palestinians Israel stole land from 62 years ago are now dead, they have no rights, when the entire cornerstone of Jews reclaiming the holy land of Israel is based on being missing from those same lands for 1800 years.

Even if we accept 1/4 of your claims, its still a matter that Israeli Jews stole everything from Palestinians. Nor can you blame it on the Arab States attacking, because the Palestinians did not.


I do not support the jewish claim of getting the land back after 1800 years.

i do support legally bought land and an official partition (which israel agreed to) to create the jewish state




also you didnt answer my PS now PPS
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
6,761
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To be honest, i fear more for the population of Egypt than for Israel if the only available opposition, the Muslim Brotherhood, becomes the rulers.

Democracy will be VERY short lived with them as rulers and most of the population will suffer greatly under Islamic opression.

If they go to war, it will be a mass death of Egyptians and Egypt will become what Iraq became after invading Kuwait.

Have you ever noticed that history has a thing for repetition?

I have noticed that and the reason it is true, that we bring about in reality our conscious and unconscious fears. The Jews fear the Holocaust and are busy bringing it back into reality, they are busy destroying themselves. I don't hate them for it. I just see what they do and where it will lead.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
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I'm not the only one that is saying your highness Netanyahu is a mad man.

Israel Sides With Its Loyal Ally in Cairo -- Posted on 03. Feb, 2011 by Raja Mujtaba in Hot Topics. An Analysis By Prof Lawrence Davidson

Yesterday I watched Israel’s Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu give a talk about the on-going events in Egypt. In essence he said that if the demonstrations against the 30 year old dictatorship of Hosni Mubarak succeeded the world would get an Iranian style regime in Egypt and that would be the end of democracy. Netanyahu’s facial expression was consistently serious and grim. He appeared to be perfectly sincere. The Prime Minister’s visions of ayatollahs on the Nile was backed up by Israeli diplomats and journalists who, in a rather frantic way, explained that the US and Europe are acting stupidly in their response to the Egyptian crisis. According to the Israelis, Mubarak has to be unquestionably supported. Look what happened when you pulled back from the Shah in 79. Do you want to make that mistake again? How naive, how weak, how suicidal. To finish all this off, Israeli spokespersons pointed out that events once more demonstrate thatthe Zionist state is the only stable government in the Middle East. It is the only real example of democracy in the region. Yet, as the Bard reminds us, "what is in a name?" Not all democracies smell as sweet as a rose. Some can smell remarkably foul.

Today, we saw the what our great Egyptian ally was capable of. The Egyptian army had promised that they would not shoot at the protestors. But, alas, there was a loophole. They never said they would not facilitate the arrival of thousands of thugs who would, well, not exactly shoot the demonstrators. They would just club, stab, and run them down on camels–innocent beasts who never asked for this sort of duty. These thousands were in fact police and government agents in civilian clothes, backed up by your ever ready lumpen proletariat. In other words, what we saw in the streets of Cairo today was an Egyptian version of Mussolini style fascists on the streets of Rome circa 1922, Nazi Brown Shirts on the streets of Berlin circa 1932, and, of course, Israeli settlers in the rural by-ways of the West Bank circa 2011.

But the Israeli leadership, representatives of stability and democracy as they claim to be, don’t seem to notice the ugly historical similarities. They think the real villain of the piece is Barack Obama. The American President has "put a bullet in Mubarak’s back." He has double crossed a loyal ally and is now "demanding the head" of "the almost lone voice of sanity in the Middle East! [except of course for the Israelis themselves]." Bottom line: "America has lost it."

By tomorrow, if Mubarak emerges victorious from the fray, there should be joy in Jerusalem. For behind all the Israeli lament there is an obvious disregard for things like real democracy, human rights, justice and freedom. You know, the pie in the sky sort of human desires. All of which are not worth two shekels in Jerusalem compared to the fact that the tyrant just to the west had kept the "peace" for thirty years while Israel has proceeded to illegally dispossess the Palestinians. That is the bottom line. Mubarak goes and Israel loses a really vital partner in crime. That would certainly be against their national interest.

Yesterday, I tried to watch Netanyahu, and read the Israeli papers, as a Jew. I figured that to do so was an act of solidarity with ex-patriot Egyptians watching Mubarak say he was duty bound to hold office through his present "elected" term. For both progressive Jews and Egyptians this had to be a very difficult exercise because there was no escaping the conclusion that the leaders of both countries are either outright liars or living in a fantasy. Either way, it is a real stretch to think of them as "lone voices of sanity." I think a more accurate assessment would judge them of questionable sanity and quite dangerous.

On the one hand, Netanyahu and Mubarak deserve each other. They are both perfectly willing to kill a lot of people to get what they want and they throw temper tantrums when others suggest this is wrong. On the other hand, President Obama, at least to date, deserves credit for trying to do the right thing, the sane and peaceful thing, in Egypt. But he has misjudged his men, both in Cairo and Jerusalem. He is dealing with thugs in suits.

In the long run, what are the folks in Washington going to do? Are they going to follow through (simultaneously breaking really new ground!) and show the world that the U.S. will not associate with Mussolini style fascists, Nazi style brown shirts, and Israeli fanatics? A necessary start in that direction is pulling the plug on all military aid to Egypt. If Mubarak and his generals want to stay in power let them pay their own way. No doubt the Saudis will be willing to help them out. As for the United States, we should start acting in a truly idealistic fashion. Most of the world will really love us for it. Egypt is a good place to start.

Lawrence Davidson is a Professor of Middle East History at West Chester University in West ChesterPennsylvania.He is the author of America’s Palestine: Popular and Official Perceptions from Balfour to Israeli Statehood (University Press of Florida, 2001), Islamic Fundamentalism (Greenwood Press, 2003), and, co-author with Arthur Goldschmidt of the Concise History of the Middle East, 8th and 9th Editions (Westview Press, 2006 and 2009). His latest book is entitled Foreign Policy, Inc.: Privatizing American National Interest (University of Kentucky Press, 2009). Professor Davidson travels often and widely in the Middle East. He also has taken on the role of public intellectual in order to explain to American audiences the impact of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East.

Israel-Egypt-friendship-300x168.jpg

Netanyahu & Mubarak
 
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Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
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I'm not the only one that is saying your highness Netanyahu is a mad man.

Israel Sides With Its Loyal Ally in Cairo -- Posted on 03. Feb, 2011 by Raja Mujtaba in Hot Topics. An Analysis By Prof Lawrence Davidson



Israel-Egypt-friendship-300x168.jpg

Netanyahu & Mubarak

You forget one thing. Israel acts directly for its own people, not anyone else's. Its not the US or EU or Russia, all world powers



It doesn't have to care about citizens in other couteies like the unite states does.


Last 2 times the Middle east had democratic elections, they had the ayatollah in Iran, Israels greatest enemy who wages war with Israel through proxies.


The other is Hamas.


Egypt is ran as a secular government. The people there are radicals.

Why would Israel, in its own interests, support a radical population's revolt over mubarak's peace treaty?


Who do u think will run a new Egyptian government? All fingers point to the Muslim brotherhood.



Hamas is a stem from the MB.


Do u honestly think Israel wants a Hamas the size of Egypt?

Not even that, the border with Gaza would be open and flooded with munitions.



So tell me, how is a revolt better for Israel?
 

EagleKeeper

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Know one has any idea what type of government will end up in Egypt.

The people took over Iran and what has been the result?
You have the common person trying to overthrough the Egyptian governemnt - what type of government will it be replaced with? Something that is like Iran, similar to what is being torn down, etc.

Israel is warning that the results that could happen may be worse for Israel and possibly the world than what presently exists.
 

EagleKeeper

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With respect to the Palestinians in Gaza - Egypt put them there during the '48 conflict and refused to allow them out.

It was the Arabs that attack Israel, not the other way around. But some here feel that the attackers bear no responsibility for the resulting actions.
Wiki
In the 1947 United Nations Partition Plan, Gaza was assigned to be part of an Arab state in western Palestine but was occupied by Egypt following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. Gaza's growing population was augmented by an influx of refugees fleeing nearby cities, towns and villages that were captured by Israel
They are the ones the created the camps and force the Palestinians into them.
for 20 years, Gaza was the controlled by Egypt in all the squalor.

They initiated the war that created refugees into Gaza, captured Gaza administered/controlled Gaza and force the Palestinians living in Gaza to stay out of Egypt.

After they gave Gaza to Israel, they still kept the border pressure on.

Egypt is not the angel w/ respect to Gaza that the Palestinian supporters want her to be.
And then they should ask; why does Egypt act this way for the past 60+ years toward the Palestinians? These were people that they were supposed to be nurturing toward statehood!
 

Orignal Earl

Diamond Member
Oct 27, 2005
8,059
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The next sentence from your wiki quote

-In 1957, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser made a number of reforms in Gaza, which included expanding educational opportunities and the civil services, providing housing, and establishing local security forces


I hate it when posters do that, kinda throws a shadow over everything they post.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
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You forget one thing. Israel acts directly for its own people, not anyone else's. Its not the US or EU or Russia, all world powers



It doesn't have to care about citizens in other couteies like the unite states does.


Last 2 times the Middle east had democratic elections, they had the ayatollah in Iran, Israels greatest enemy who wages war with Israel through proxies.


The other is Hamas.


Egypt is ran as a secular government. The people there are radicals.

Why would Israel, in its own interests, support a radical population's revolt over mubarak's peace treaty?


Who do u think will run a new Egyptian government? All fingers point to the Muslim brotherhood.



Hamas is a stem from the MB.


Do u honestly think Israel wants a Hamas the size of Egypt?

Not even that, the border with Gaza would be open and flooded with munitions.



So tell me, how is a revolt better for Israel?
Therefore it is okay for Israel to support a dictator?

If we use the same analogy that you have said, then it is okay for China to support North Korea, Iran to support & sponsor violent in the ME, and it is okay for the Japanese to support the Nazi during WW2 at killing Jews.

Hypocrisy at work!

We don't know what will happen after this mess as well as who is going to run the country. And, IMHO this dire situation in Egypt needs positive international support instead of negative knee jerk reactions that we are seeing from the dictatorship Israeli camp.
 
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EagleKeeper

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The next sentence from your wiki quote

-In 1957, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser made a number of reforms in Gaza, which included expanding educational opportunities and the civil services, providing housing, and establishing local security forces


I hate it when posters do that, kinda throws a shadow over everything they post.

For 10 years, Egypt did nothing for the Palestinians.

LL likes to claim that the Palestinians are in the predictament and forced there by ISrael since day 0.

Since then Egypt has continued to keep the Palestinians at arms length when they had for the next 50 years control over the Palestinians. for 10 years that they controlled the area to the next 40 years when they controlled the southern border for supplies and trade and people.

Israel has done as much if not more for Gaza in terms of supplies as has Egypt and the rest of the world.

Gaza is an enemy to Israel, is it an enemy to Egypt?
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
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For 10 years, Egypt did nothing for the Palestinians.

LL likes to claim that the Palestinians are in the predictament and forced there by ISrael since day 0.

Since then Egypt has continued to keep the Palestinians at arms length when they had for the next 50 years control over the Palestinians. for 10 years that they controlled the area to the next 40 years when they controlled the southern border for supplies and trade and people.

Israel has done as much if not more for Gaza in terms of supplies as has Egypt and the rest of the world.

Gaza is an enemy to Israel, is it an enemy to Egypt?
Funny how that work. Suddenly Gaza became the enemy of Israel after settlers stole their land/home/water, and suppressed Palestinians as well as Arab Jews for decades.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Gaza was conquered by the Egyptians and existed under Egyptian rule for 20 years.
Egypt allowed the PLO to exist in Gaza acting against Israel. Egypt was at war with Israel, the Palestinians were at war with Israel; yet the Egyptians were also keeping the Palestinians under the boot.

Land that Israeli settlers had was turned back to the Palestinians in Gaza in hope that land for peace would work.

All the Palestinians did was to increase attacks against Israel and destroy the infrastructure that the Israeli settlers left for the Palestinians.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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The next sentence from your wiki quote

-In 1957, Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser made a number of reforms in Gaza, which included expanding educational opportunities and the civil services, providing housing, and establishing local security forces


I hate it when posters do that, kinda throws a shadow over everything they post.

Of the posters in this forum you can believe to be honest, EagleKeeper is definently one of them, you have my word on that.

I see he already made his point though, but i just wanted you to know that.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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As a clear picture emerges from Egypt, we learn 100&#37; of the violence is coming from the Mubarak side as he empties prison, recruits agents to use violence against peaceful protesters demanding his ouster. So Bozo Netanyuhu is only stupid enough to be the only one calls for the retention of Mubarak?

With a giant hollow argument of panic panic panic, if that lovable thug Mubarak falls, we will get an Egypt ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood. And worse yet, Netanyuhu tries to sell
that crapola to Obama, the entire Arab League, and the international community after disrespecting calls from almost everyone in that same target audience to extend the settlement freeze in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. As Netanyuhu basically told everyone to go fuck themselves, including Mubarak, who never did much to help the Palestinians anyway.

But there were a number of good articles in the NYT, basically saying the Muslim Brotherhood has very little support in Egypt. With no more than a 100,000 supporters in Egypt, totally miserable small given Egypt has a population of more like 75-80 million. Nor are street protesters paying much attention to the Muslim Brotherhood as they try to gain any notice. The Mubarak protesters are young, educated, pragmatic, and in many of their minds, the MB and Mubarak are simply relics of the past that no longer have any use. Nor are they chanting anti-Israeli slogans, their prize is getting rid of Mubarak corruption and thuggery. They want economic and political reforms, and not a return to failed policies of the past. Worse yet, the MB has no social outreach that earns them any Egyptian support.

Because while Israel has been snoozing, their entire neighborhood has been changing. No longer can a group shout anti-Israel slogans and expect to earn any support. Israel gains less and less mileage with demonizing the military wings of Hamas and Hezbollah.
When the social wings of Hamas and Hezbollah are much larger and are the go to guys for everyone in Gaza and Lebanon to get social support help. Fatah in the West Bank has transformed itself into an very effective social support group. And has done much to prevent almost all anti-Israeli violence.

And we can take a Lesson from the recent democratic and non-violent change of Government in Lebanon. And when the Christan community in Lebanon had to choose either R. Harri or Hezbollah, they sided with Hezbollah. Maybe some Israeli pay back from its rape of Lebanon in 2006. Israel, as an equal opportunity did not have to bomb the Christians in central Lebanon, far from the Hezbollah strong holds in South Lebanon, but Israel choose to anyway. And when, R. Harri choose to throw in his lot with the Israeli desire to rid itself of Hezbollah, well alas poor Harri, we can bid him farewell. Nor is Hezbollah over playing its hand, instead of seeking control, it seeks to be only a part of a broad based Government. And to add to Israel losing its last large regional allies in Turkey and Egypt, the King of Jordan is frankly disgusted with Israel.

Israel knew how to deal with corrupt despotic Arab governments, but seems clueless about dealing with a mid-east that is transforming itself toward democratic social and political reforms. What good does it do Israel to have a kick ass military, when the mid-east is not playing Israel's game. As Israel is embracing the role of mid-east villain #1, now out of step with a modern world.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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JOS, why do you bother with these threads? It just serves to raise your blood pressure. I left P&N a long time ago. It's like talking to a brick wall here.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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JOS, why do you bother with these threads? It just serves to raise your blood pressure. I left P&N a long time ago. It's like talking to a brick wall here.

It amuses me a bit i guess. I don't really take it as seriously as it might seem except when people call me a Nazist or keep stalking me for years just to repeat the same thing.

No one will ever change their mind though, i do understand that and you are right, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Shalom and thanks for the sentiment.
 

ThePresence

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
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It amuses me a bit i guess. I don't really take it as seriously as it might seem except when people call me a Nazist or keep stalking me for years just to repeat the same thing.

No one will ever change their mind though, i do understand that and you are right, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Shalom and thanks for the sentiment.

Also realize that 99.9% of the people here have no fucking clue what they're talking about. Their information comes from whatever media outlet they find to be sympathetic to their POV. They have absolutely no personal experience in these issues. It's all, at best, third-hand, media-twisted information. Sheyiyeh lecha yom na'im.
 

EagleKeeper

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Oct 30, 2000
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It amuses me a bit i guess. I don't really take it as seriously as it might seem except when people call me a Nazist or keep stalking me for years just to repeat the same thing.

No one will ever change their mind though, i do understand that and you are right, it's like talking to a brick wall.

Shalom and thanks for the sentiment.

But it is enjoyable to point out facts that fault a user's rose colored ideals.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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Also realize that 99.9% of the people here have no fucking clue what they're talking about. Their information comes from whatever media outlet they find to be sympathetic to their POV. They have absolutely no personal experience in these issues. It's all, at best, third-hand, media-twisted information. Sheyiyeh lecha yom na'im.

I pretty much got that when i first joined up, it was to correct a misunderstanding about the Afghanistan/Pakistan border and where troop movements were being made at the time.

Thank you and tishmor al azmeha.
 
Jun 26, 2007
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But it is enjoyable to point out facts that fault a user's rose colored ideals.

Definently, it's annoying what misconceptions some have that lead to conclusions that are not even sane by my statndards.. and i do give quite some leeway too because my standards are not all that high.
 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
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Oct 30, 2000
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As a clear picture emerges from Egypt, we learn 100% of the violence is coming from the Mubarak side as he empties prison, recruits agents to use violence against peaceful protesters demanding his ouster. So Bozo Netanyuhu is only stupid enough to be the only one calls for the retention of Mubarak?


He is advising people that no one knows what will replace Mubarak?


With a giant hollow argument of panic panic panic, if that lovable thug Mubarak falls, we will get an Egypt ruled by the Muslim Brotherhood. And worse yet, Netanyuhu tries to sell
that crapola to Obama, the entire Arab League, and the international community after disrespecting calls from almost everyone in that same target audience to extend the settlement freeze in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. As Netanyuhu basically told everyone to go fuck themselves, including Mubarak, who never did much to help the Palestinians anyway.

What good does extending the settlement freeze. The Palestinians never showed up when the freeze was in place. Documents show that they were using that as a Judas goat - they never had any intentions of following through.

This is what has happened everytime there is any peace attempt - the Arab/Palestinians can not deliver what they promised in the meetings.
Actions are then instigated to trigger violence which is used as an excuse against Israel


But there were a number of good articles in the NYT, basically saying the Muslim Brotherhood has very little support in Egypt. With no more than a 100,000 supporters in Egypt, totally miserable small given Egypt has a population of more like 75-80 million. Nor are street protesters paying much attention to the Muslim Brotherhood as they try to gain any notice. The Mubarak protesters are young, educated, pragmatic, and in many of their minds, the MB and Mubarak are simply relics of the past that no longer have any use. Nor are they chanting anti-Israeli slogans, their prize is getting rid of Mubarak corruption and thuggery. They want economic and political reforms, and not a return to failed policies of the past. Worse yet, the MB has no social outreach that earns them any Egyptian support.

Because while Israel has been snoozing, their entire neighborhood has been changing. No longer can a group shout anti-Israel slogans and expect to earn any support. Israel gains less and less mileage with demonizing the military wings of Hamas and Hezbollah.

Israel does not need to demonize the military wings of Hamas and Hezbollah. They do it themselves with their actions and statements. Neither wants peace with Israel; they are biding their time before starting another issue.

When the social wings of Hamas and Hezbollah are much larger and are the go to guys for everyone in Gaza and Lebanon to get social support help. Fatah in the West Bank has transformed itself into an very effective social support group. And has done much to prevent almost all anti-Israeli violence.

Yet there are gangs in the West Bank that attack women thinking that they may be Jewis.
There are still rockets launched from Gaza into Israel.
Hezbollah is still making military threast against Israel.

That seems like preventing anti-Israeli violence.
ISrael sealing off the Gaza and northern border and the wall is what is protecting the citizens from the Palestinians, not voluntary cooperation out of the goodness of their hearts.

Remember, that all three sides still want Israel gone - they are just to ineffective to accomplish it.


And we can take a Lesson from the recent democratic and non-violent change of Government in Lebanon. And when the Christan community in Lebanon had to choose either R. Harri or Hezbollah, they sided with Hezbollah. Maybe some Israeli pay back from its rape of Lebanon in 2006. Israel, as an equal opportunity did not have to bomb the Christians in central Lebanon, far from the Hezbollah strong holds in South Lebanon, but Israel choose to anyway.

Israel attacked where attacks were coming from - evidence to the contrary please?

And when, R. Harri choose to throw in his lot with the Israeli desire to rid itself of Hezbollah, well alas poor Harri, we can bid him farewell. Nor is Hezbollah over playing its hand, instead of seeking control, it seeks to be only a part of a broad based Government. And to add to Israel losing its last large regional allies in Turkey and Egypt, the King of Jordan is frankly disgusted with Israel.

Turkey was not a ally - it was an economic partner. Same goes with Egypt.

Jordan may be disgusted with Israel, but they will work with Israel more than the Palestinians anytime.


Israel knew how to deal with corrupt despotic Arab governments, but seems clueless about dealing with a mid-east that is transforming itself toward democratic social and political reforms. What good does it do Israel to have a kick ass military, when the mid-east is not playing Israel's game. As Israel is embracing the role of mid-east villain #1, now out of step with a modern world.
At this point where is a democratic Middle Eastern government? Has one existed that is moving forward with socail and politcal reforms?

The whole situation is an big unknown. Iran was a failure from the western POV - their democracy has to be shown a farce.
Turkey may be the only democratic Muslim/Arab country that qualifies and they are back sliding.