Net Neutrality Ruling Passed

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
This BS again?

All it ever is is outrage from people who just want cheap and unlimited access to bittorrent all the free movies of the world.

Then the anti-capitalism crowd butts in and dreams up wild scenarios of how corporations *could* be the most evil devilish threat to humanity stomping on our throats cutting off our right to information! It's all bull-shit. They're imagining up scenarios that don't exist, to justify over regulation, government control, for what purpose exactly?

Gosh, flipping through the channels this morning, I normally never watch G4, but going past it they had a segment on the wonders of Net Neutrality, and in describing why we want net neutrality, showed images of The Pirate Bay and other piracy sites, saying we need full access to these sites at no cost.


The whole issue is, the ISPs want to switch from a one-size fits all payment model, to one where you pay for what you use. Why should the person who just checks email once a week, pay the same price to ISPs as the other person who maxes out his connection 24/7 hording as many movies and tv shows off p2p apps as he can get away with? Doesn't make any sense to any sane person.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
I think what people are complaining about is the advertisements that read 15Mbps unlimited* internet. Then if you read the fine print
* unlimited means using the service under acceptable* rules.
* acceptable rules are no more than 250GB per 30 day period

I think they should do one of two things.
List the restrictions in plain view, 15Mbps connection 250GB monthly limit

Offer 15Mbps full time with the speed degrading as the person downloads more. This allows someone to have a fast connection to get the things they need quickly and controls the people that abuse the system without penalizing people who don't. 15Mbps full speed 24/7 until 200GB used then 10Mbps for another 50GB then 5Mbps for the next 10GB, etc

They could also offer customers an option to download during certain hours and not have it count against the limit, like phones do for nights and weekends.

Or you just price the service on a per-use model. Everyone gets as fast a speed as possible, those who abuse the system pay for it, those who don't do not pay as much.

But oh the horrors of the blogosphere! We're bittorrenting moves because we don't want to pay for them. And dammit if corporations are screwing me over by making me pay for them! That's the whole point to the internet, not having to pay for anything!
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
This BS again?

All it ever is is outrage from people who just want cheap and unlimited access to bittorrent all the free movies of the world.

.

see not everyone wants that or cares about that. TBH all im worried about is that if we say FUCK IT to net neut ISPs will begin only allowing you access to the shit they want. IE block youtube or hulu and make you use their paid video streaming service / block certain websites simply because they offer a different point of view then what the ISP supports,.....
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
see not everyone wants that or cares about that. TBH all im worried about is that if we say FUCK IT to net neut ISPs will begin only allowing you access to the shit they want. IE block youtube or hulu and make you use their paid video streaming service / block certain websites simply because they offer a different point of view then what the ISP supports,.....

Yep that is my primary concern. I use a lot of sites like netflix and hulu and don't want that content pushed to last priority on a network because it isn't content that network provides. Also I worry about my voip provider since it is not through my isp provider and they do offer voip services. Are they going to give their voip customers priority over me ?
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Yep that is my primary concern. I use a lot of sites like netflix and hulu and don't want that content pushed to last priority on a network because it isn't content that network provides. Also I worry about my voip provider since it is not through my isp provider and they do offer voip services. Are they going to give their voip customers priority over me ?

So you are crying wolf for something that *might* happen.
(and if/when it does happen there is nothing stopping you from going to another ISP)
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
But oh the horrors of the blogosphere! We're bittorrenting moves because we don't want to pay for them. And dammit if corporations are screwing me over by making me pay for them! That's the whole point to the internet, not having to pay for anything!

I agree the whole entitlement thing has gotten out of hand. I have said repeatedly that people that use arguments like , it has DRM, it cost too much, I'm just trying it out, I'll buy it later, etc are pathetic. I call them for what they are thieves . If they want to pirate movies, music , software at least be honest about it and admit it is stealing and quit trying to explain it off as something else.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
So you are crying wolf for something that *might* happen.
(and if/when it does happen there is nothing stopping you from going to another ISP)

I only have access to 1 isp. And it isn't theoretical , ISP have already been sued for prioritizing their traffic over 3rd parties.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Yep that is my primary concern. I use a lot of sites like netflix and hulu and don't want that content pushed to last priority on a network because it isn't content that network provides. Also I worry about my voip provider since it is not through my isp provider and they do offer voip services. Are they going to give their voip customers priority over me ?

So you are crying wolf for something that *might* happen.
(and if/when it does happen there is nothing stopping you from going to another ISP)

Hmmm...

99% of Bittorrent traffic is "illegal"
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/ne...les_downloaded_are_illegal_drm_might_be_blame

Bittorrent accounts for 50% to 90% of traffic
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21376597/

Why shouldn't Comcast be able to ensure network stability for the vast majority of users by throttling illegal activities?
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
I only have access to 1 isp. And it isn't theoretical , ISP have already been sued for prioritizing their traffic over 3rd parties.

Um. That is simply not true.

I can think of 3 satellite providers that provide access to the internet anywhere in the world.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
So you are crying wolf for something that *might* happen.
(and if/when it does happen there is nothing stopping you from going to another ISP)

Hmmm...

99% of Bittorrent traffic is "illegal"
http://www.maximumpc.com/article/ne...les_downloaded_are_illegal_drm_might_be_blame

Bittorrent accounts for 50% to 90% of traffic
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21376597/

Why shouldn't Comcast be able to ensure network stability for the vast majority of users by throttling illegal activities?

You whole argument is bullshit because in a lot of places there is NO choice. No matter how many times you say it isn't going to magically make more ISPs available where there isn't presently.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
I only have access to 1 isp. And it isn't theoretical , ISP have already been sued for prioritizing their traffic over 3rd parties.

It is your imagination because the FCC smacked down the very few ISPs that tried it. It's not going to happen, it's all imaginary fear mongering.
 

Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
427
126
tbqhwy.com
So you are crying wolf for something that *might* happen.
(and if/when it does happen there is nothing stopping you from going to another ISP)

there's a lot stopping me from going to another ISP. and its the fact that there is only 1 ISP where i live.

now someone is gonna say blah blah blah you are lieing and can get dialup or sat but yea those dont count for reasons that have been stated a few million times
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Why shouldn't Comcast be able to ensure network stability for the vast majority of users by throttling illegal activities?

How do you determine the content is illegal ?
Do you want your isp to examine every packet you send ?
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
It is your imagination because the FCC smacked down the very few ISPs that tried it. It's not going to happen, it's all imaginary fear mongering.

They prosecuted the ones that were caught but new violations in that area are found every day.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
You don't want net neutrality. It's a false scare that only harms the development of the Internet to provide quality voice, video and data. Treating different traffic differently is crucial to advance the internet and provide better service.

With the advances we have made as far as bandwidth capability is concerned, that statement is completely false.
 

Patranus

Diamond Member
Apr 15, 2007
9,280
0
0
Really and which ones work with voip and the nice delays that satellite provides.

Again, there are choices, some might work for you and some might not.

That is the entire idea behind "choice and competition".

Hell, if I want to start an ISP that blocks all bittorrent traffic, market it to users who only use email and a little web, and charge a hell of a lot less, why should the government stop me from doing that?
 
Dec 26, 2007
11,782
2
76
First off, there is some pretty ignorant people in this thread.

There are other technologies that are available besides cable.

Cable
Dialup
DSL
Wireless (3G)
Satellite

There are probably more but this is all I can think of off the top of my head.

Cable is an alternative for cable? :D (sorry had to point that out :p)

First off, those are not always alternatives. For example, satellite is NOT able to do VoIP because of delay. Dialup doesn't offer the bandwidth or delay required for VoIP. The 3G wireless can depending on the area, but not everywhere (nor can it have the reliability of the connection/speeds that a dedicated DSL/cable line will).

So, depending on what you're doing with your connection those are not all viable alternatives. Also, most places you're stuck with one DSL provider and one cable, but sometimes not even one of each. That means there is a monopoly on the market, which isn't good for the consumer.

As a professional in networking, and as someone who holds two Cisco certs, Im still on the fence about this. Fact is, I believe part of the reason voice/video works so well now is that traffic is prioritized. I'll have to wait for implimentation to see if its a benefit or not.

If you hold Cisco certs, then you should also know that unless you're a business of decent enough size (i.e. one large enough to pay for guarantees in your SLA) that the *only* prioritization that is done is stuff at your edge router before it hits the public internet.

Part of the reason voice/video works well now is also the codecs/technologies that have been developed specifically to meet the needs of the current topology/environment. We have codecs/protocols that were developed to meet certain criteria, and for the most part they work (while they do create packet bloat). I would personally much rather the internet to not have any form of "tiers" more then the current you get what you pay for approach.

People would be bitching just as much if they did that, though. The latest and greatest in cable internet technology, DOCSIS 3.0, shares like 152Mbps of downstream bandwidth between an entire neighborhood. Assuming 32 customers in a neighborhood, if you split that evenly it's only 5Mbps per household. Yet people are demanding very high speed services, 10Mbps+, stuff like that. There's no way they could deliver those kind of speeds and guarantee people could max the connection 24/7.

Fiber has a lot more capacity, and with a GPON network the cable providers could easily deliver that kind of bandwidth to customers. But that's a big investment, Verizon for example has spent five years and $20 billion to bring its FiOS service to 20 million households. And I'm sure they were going after the most profitable markets first, so delivering it to the next 20 million households would probably be much more expensive. It probably wouldn't even be economically feasible to rewire a lot of Americans for fiber right now, heck a lot still don't even have cable or DSL. So you can't really blame cable providers for sticking with the current infrastructure as long as possible. Not to mention the people that want very high speeds and bandwidth limits are the minority of customers, most are happy enough with their service. They're not going to spend tens or hundreds of billions on upgrading to fiber to appease 0.1% of their customers. I'm sure in 5-10 years when a significant amount of their customers are demanding more speed and bandwidth they'll start making the switch, but right now it makes little sense.

Most cable operators have at least started to move into a hybrid topology where there is fiber all the way to the local distribution office and/or last mile. That means that more of that bandwidth will be available at the customers home (and/or neighborhood).

Oh, and that 5 meg/house is if you have that many customers using it at once, which is only going to happen during "busy hours" of 5-8ish and weekends.

Also, saying it will cost MORE to roll out to more customers is forgetting that as technology devlops prices go down. The first 20 million customers might have cost $20 billion, but the technology part of that cost will continue to decrease. It will still be expensive since a lot of that cost is due to the digging, but it shouldn't be $1,000/customer

Overselling is just a reality of residential internet service, though. The idea is that most customers are not going to be using the service all the time, and because of this you can sell to more customers and offer them higher speeds than you can actually carry.

It's a sound idea and it's the reason residential broadband services are affordable. If you want dedicated bandwidth go price something like a T1, it will cost way more than a residential connection and you'll only have 1.544Mbps to show for it. But you can use the connection in any way you want, max the upload and download 24/7. The provider won't mind, because that's what the connection is designed for.

Exactly. Oversubscription isn't the issue, and to a point isn't a problem (if it's excessive then it is a problem obviously). There is no reason to have a dedicated amount of bandwidth for each customer 24/7, unless you're using the connection for some sort of business pursuit. For residential lines though, oversubscription is fine.

Or you just price the service on a per-use model. Everyone gets as fast a speed as possible, those who abuse the system pay for it, those who don't do not pay as much.

But oh the horrors of the blogosphere! We're bittorrenting moves because we don't want to pay for them. And dammit if corporations are screwing me over by making me pay for them! That's the whole point to the internet, not having to pay for anything!

That is an interesting idea. I like the premise, but I think more of a tiered approach would work better then simply $1/gb or whatever. For example, you pay for service like now until you hit a reasonable cap. Say for a 15/2 connection, you get 100 gb (face it, most people don't even use 100 gb in a few months). For each gb from 100-200 you pay $.50, then for 200-250 gb you pay $1.00, and keep ramping it up. This will create financial consequences for those who abuse bandwidth, and not interfere with most people.

see not everyone wants that or cares about that. TBH all im worried about is that if we say FUCK IT to net neut ISPs will begin only allowing you access to the shit they want. IE block youtube or hulu and make you use their paid video streaming service / block certain websites simply because they offer a different point of view then what the ISP supports,.....

Yeah, China's view of the internet should not be replicated here in the states by companies.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
With the advances we have made as far as bandwidth capability is concerned, that statement is completely false.

There is always some congestion and queues fill up adding to latency and jitter and even drops. Throwing bandwidth at it still doesn't help. The provider must have some means of deciding the drop probability depending on the application. Voice and video don't like that at all (latency, jitter, drops), normal browsing not so much, bulk transfer even less.

This capability is crucial to advancing the internet. Best effort deliver would set us backwards from a technology perspective which is why this whole net neutrality thing is so insane and a terrible idea.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
Hell, if I want to start an ISP that blocks all bittorrent traffic, market it to users who only use email and a little web, and charge a hell of a lot less, why should the government stop me from doing that?

Go ahead and try to start an ISP in another market where one already exist. Let us know how it goes after you get through all the court trials just to be told NO. Shouldn't take more than 10-20 years to go through all the lawyers.

That is the whole point people are trying to make. You cannot start an isp that offers alternatives. Go ahead and try to sell your own DSL in your city. Be prepared to jump through hoops for the next decade.

Compare it to being in the desert with a dictator being the only one selling water. He can make the rules however he likes and nothing you can do. Try to bring in water and sell it yourself and his army will kill you. The ISP are the dictator and his army is the lobbyist they use to control the rules.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Go ahead and try to start an ISP in another market where one already exist. Let us know how it goes after you get through all the court trials just to be told NO. Shouldn't take more than 10-20 years to go through all the lawyers.

That is the whole point people are trying to make. You cannot start an isp that offers alternatives. Go ahead and try to sell your own DSL in your city. Be prepared to jump through hoops for the next decade.

Compare it to being in the desert with a dictator being the only one selling water. He can make the rules however he likes and nothing you can do. Try to bring in water and sell it yourself and his army will kill you. The ISP are the dictator and his army is the lobbyist they use to control the rules.

I've built and designed many smaller ISPs. It's not too incredibly difficult, it's the right of way to run the cable that's probably the most difficult but there are few if any other barriers except the tremendous upfront cost.
 

Modelworks

Lifer
Feb 22, 2007
16,240
7
76
I've built and designed many smaller ISPs. It's not too incredibly difficult, it's the right of way to run the cable that's probably the most difficult but there are few if any other barriers except the tremendous upfront cost.

And government passing laws saying you cannot do it, like they are trying to do in NC.
 

classy

Lifer
Oct 12, 1999
15,219
1
81
There is always some congestion and queues fill up adding to latency and jitter and even drops. Throwing bandwidth at it still doesn't help. The provider must have some means of deciding the drop probability depending on the application. Voice and video don't like that at all (latency, jitter, drops), normal browsing not so much, bulk transfer even less.

This capability is crucial to advancing the internet. Best effort deliver would set us backwards from a technology perspective which is why this whole net neutrality thing is so insane and a terrible idea.

I know you know your stuff in this area, but the problem with doing QOS over the entire internet with pinning the excuse on torrents is false. Torrent sharing is a small amount of users and the with the advancements in switching as a whole on a WAN scale, has truly opened up so much more bandwidth. Now that we have added voice, I would say that leans more towards the actual physical quality rather than actual bandwidth. If your saving money by using slower or less capable backbone equipment but still want to throttle certain traffic to make up the difference, that ain't right. While I am a LAN guy, most WAN networks today are starting to mimic LANs more and more. I guess what I am saying is, ISPs want maximize their profit at the expense of its consumers.
 

her209

No Lifer
Oct 11, 2000
56,336
11
0
There is always some congestion and queues fill up adding to latency and jitter and even drops. Throwing bandwidth at it still doesn't help. The provider must have some means of deciding the drop probability depending on the application. Voice and video don't like that at all (latency, jitter, drops), normal browsing not so much, bulk transfer even less.

This capability is crucial to advancing the internet. Best effort deliver would set us backwards from a technology perspective which is why this whole net neutrality thing is so insane and a terrible idea.
If an ISP wants to become a provider of telecommunication services then they should be subject to the same regulations as telecommunication companies.