Nehalem

[zsdersw]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Hows that. I have read his post there very good. I think he works for intel . But that doesn't mean he knows were Macro-fusion hardware come from.

I think he knows more about everything regarding the technical details of microprocessors and how they're designed than you ever will.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: zsdersw

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Hows that. I have read his post there very good. I think he works for intel . But that doesn't mean he knows were Macro-fusion hardware come from.

I think he knows more about everything regarding the technical details of microprocessors and how they're designed than you ever will.

QFT

 

[xxceler8]

and all this time I thought Nemesis 1 was a bot.. with all the pasting and such

 

[Phynaz]

Originally posted by: zsdersw

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Hows that. I have read his post there very good. I think he works for intel . But that doesn't mean he knows were Macro-fusion hardware come from.

I think he knows more about everything regarding the technical details of microprocessors and how they're designed than you ever will.

Best post in this thread.

 

[Nemesis 1]

The number of people who know more about Intel Arch than I in the world is > than the number that don't. . That said. Many Intel people said right up till the end NO 1600FSB and No Sli on Skulltrail . Were as I fought with them about it . Why is that ? How did I get right and they didn't. I only picked up bits of info here and their but it was enough to see. The hand writing on wall.

I can go get the Elbrus cpu hardware specs. That will show Macro-fusion. type hardware. Thats what I base it off of. Like I said you guys should check out the caches on Elbrus compiler. Than read what intel is doing now. But I already read them . If you want to know trueth USE google.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Software is software. Firmware is software that is kept on memory. So as to interface with hardware and OS. Elbrus software compiler can read all high level languages . Beings how the people how wrote the Elbrus Compiler software now work for intel . It was not a problem for Intel to use some of that software in firmware. Throw goobs of cache on the processor and you can decode in real time. K5 sucked because the decoders sucked for risc translation to x86. So a 4 issue core performed really really poorly. Plus it was a year late to the party.

Are you suggesting that the technology behind the Elbrus compilier is being put into firmware in some system? I'd like to see some proof of that.

 

[dmens]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Macro- fusion is front end hardware Macro-fusion is the ability of joining two x86 instructions together into a single micro-op. This improves the CPU performance and lowers the CPU power consumption, since it will execute only one micro-op instead of two.
Macro-fusion was New to C2D. Intel also owns Elbrus hardware ya know. You can read about the hardware it may shock ya into reality. Some of the cache stuff is really good. Read about it.

here's a shocker for you: elbrus was a VLIW/EPIC machine, C2D is the opposite. moreover, even for some wacko reason intel was not able to come up with macrofusion on C2D on its own (and its not even all that complicated in the whole scope of things, compared to some other global protocols), why the hell would they try to shoehorn some russian VLIW hardware into C2D, which has been 100% in-house from the P6 days? that's just friggin retarded.

In January 2006, Apple, Inc. shipped their first Intel-based Macintosh computers. These systems use EFI and the Framework instead of Open Firmware, which had been used on their previous PowerPC-based systems.[8] On April 5, 2006 Apple released Boot Camp which produces a Windows XP Drivers Disk as well as a non-destructive partitioning tool to help users easily install Windows XP. A firmware update was also released which added legacy BIOS support to its EFI implementation. Subsequent Macintosh models shipped with the newer firmware. Now all current Macintosh systems are also able to boot legacy BIOS Operating Systems like Windows XP and Vista. AMD macs can runn all things X86. Yet they only changed firmware. That some nice firm ware.

So all of the sudden X86 cores run on UNIX-based operating system. Solaris on SPARC can handle high end jobs where x86/Linux doesn?t have a look-in. Note: Sparc recall that Elbrus sun has tech agreement and Intel now owns Elbrus.

As A said befor the line is being drawn in the sand . SUN APPLE INTEL all happy together all because of a small russian company called Elbrus.

yeah, that explains why steve jobs had been booting os x on x86 hardware within apple even before the release of os x 10.0 before elbrus IP was acquired by intel. how you managed to link a firmware with that stuff is completely beyond me.

you remind me of those people on aviation forums who insist the mig-15 trashed the f-86 in the korean war... RUSSIAN POWER!!!!

 

[Nemesis 1]

Intel bought Elbrus in 2004 . It has been Intel since than . Intel is noted for taking failed designs and improving them . In the case of Elbrus it wasn't a design failure but lack of funding. Boris A. Babaian Although I can't give out his e-mail adderess. People at Intel should know what this guy has done for intel in the past and into the future . Saying it ain't so is hopelss. Boris wasn't the only good engineer Intel has working at Intel from the Elbrus team .

If were lucky Boris may stop in and talk to us. Because this guy loves blowing his own horn. I contacted him asked to stop in . Haven't recieved reply yet.



From 1992 to 2004, Babaian held senior positions in the Moscow Center for SPARC Technology and Elbrus International. In these roles he led the development of Elbrus2000 (single-chip implementation of Elbrus-3) and Elbrus90micro (SPARC computer based on domestically developed microprocessor) projects.


Since August of 2004, Babaian is the Director of Architecture for the Software and Solutions Group in Intel Corporation and scientific advisor of the Intel R&D center in Moscow. He leads efforts in such areas as compilers, binary translation and security technologies. He became the first European holding the Intel Fellow title

Do some research on the Elbrus 3 and the Elbrus2000.

 

[dmens]

RUSSIAN POWAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[HopJokey]

Originally posted by: dmens
RUSSIAN POWAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Soviet Russia, Macro Ops fuse YOU!

 

[xxceler8]

well, Nemesis 1 does consider these discussions as "forum wars", and considers himself as having an edge.. (from pulling facts out of his imagination) so you may be onto something with that russian power thing

 

[konakona]

I dont think AT forums has seen a "debate" of this intensity and absurdity ever since the days of GUTB.

 

[BigDH01]

Originally posted by: konakona
I dont think AT forums has seen a "debate" of this intensity and absurdity ever since the days of GUTB.

Plane on a treadmill anyone?

 

[BrownTown]

I didn't even realise this was a debate going on, more like Nemesis 1 making random connections between completely unrelated technologies and then linking even more unrelated articles as "proof". Kinda reminds me of South Park where the terrorists are all like "Durka Dukra Muhammad Jihad" except with Nemesis its "Elbrus Elbrus VLIW Nehlem EPIC proves me right QED"

 

[dmens]

thought that was team america world police (great movie btw)

 

[Nemesis 1]

You guys say what you will . We were discussing Macro-Fusion . a development that exist in the Elbrus cpu. Elbrus is Intel . Likely hood of intel getting that hardware from elbrus is 99%. Thats not to say intel didn't refine it.

Than were discussing EFI thats differant than the past instead of being open this one is closed. Than someone says no way did the software come from elbrus.

We were also talking about Elbrus compiler. Being used on EPIC(vliw) cores. everyone says nay.

Than I show what this intel fellow job title is.

Since August of 2004, Babaian is the Director of Architecture for the Software and Solutions Group in Intel Corporation and scientific advisor of the Intel R&D center in Moscow. He leads efforts in such areas as compilers, binary translation and security technologies. He became the first European holding the Intel Fellow title .


I would say so far this debate is pretty 1 sided as far as presenting facts.

Take your best shot. Someone tries to help you guys out and all you can do is pull a chiken little.

These debates are good for the forum . But it would be nice to see somelinks backing up the nay sayers.

You win lose debates based on facts. The fact that Boris is Intel Fellow who worked on development of Elbrus software. Is vary strong indictation that my points have merit .

READ again what this Fellow does at Intel than . Think ! Present some facts that will show otherwise.

 

[BrownTown]

Here is a proof for you (non-scientific):

Elbrus = EPIC
Nehalem = X86
X86 != EPIC
Elbrus != Nehalem

or maybe:

Elbrus Compiler = software
Nehalem decoders/schedulers/macro ops fusion = hardware
Software != Hardware
Elbrus Compiler != Nehalem decoders/schedulers/macro ops fusion

 

[Nemesis 1]

Nice brown Town I see I got a solid grasp on this.

Anyway I can give you guys this now.

THIS E-Mail no longer inservice. I haven't gotten reply yet if I can post other E-mail


Now when you e-mail him If you could translate it to russian or write it yourself in Russian . You will score some points. Boris would be happy to ans. any questions. That he can talk about.




ll
ll
ll
ll
\/ Nice phynaz

 

[Phynaz]

READ again what this Fellow does at Intel than . Think ! Present some facts that will show otherwise.

Read this:

Shut Up.

No thinking needed on your part.

 

[xxceler8]

Nemesis 1 perhaps you should widen your forum range.. and stick to subjects like celebrity gossip or checkers.

These technical forums are usually reserved for people who are.. you know.. technical. You clearly, are not.

I think you would piss off a lot less people if you stop pretending to be.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Browntown . That really wasn't bad . Lets try this.


Elbrus =Epic running x86 apps in real time.
Nehalem With modified compiler to leverage Larrabbe TC compiler running 16-24 cores /inorder/4 threads /VLIW(EPIC) I am asuming that TC stands. TOP/CAT. LOL I mean transalition compiler because I can do X86 in REAL time and anything else ya throw at me. .
AS for the hardware in Nehalem If Intel found some good stuff in elbrus hardware their going to use it .

As for nehalem leveraging Larrabbe . Seeings how the same guy that coded Elbrus compiler is Working on both chips compilers . Ya . I believe it. Elbrus Compiler can do 10 issue. Not that thats important now.But its interesting. Itanium is allready using the software.

 

[Phynaz]

What the hell?

Your ramblings make no sense at all.

A 1o issue compiler? WTF does it issue?

 

[dmens]

dude just give up

and fyi, you're not even close on any of your crazy speculations.

 

[Nemesis 1]

Now a have heard that C2D is 4 issue core Itanium 6 issue cores. K5 was a 4issue RISC runningx86 decoders.
I never ever heard of it referred to as 4 issue core, ... Speaking of issues what is being issued. and where did command come from . If you can't issue a enough commands threw the software ! . Is they why VLIW is good because the commands are longer which makes coding for apps harder. But makes for a simpler processor lower energy use while still giving good performance. Just so much good stuff out their done for X86 ya can't walk away from it.
Elbrus Cpus were Super Scalers . So its.Compilers were written to issue a lot of commands/ translations if you will at the same time.. In righting this soft ware softwear was written to do x86 also .

So now intel has decided to go super scaling with multi cores. Which to work effectively . Needs fast Compilers translating many commands at once to take advantage of all those available threads. . In order to take advantage of the cpu hardware/software . Programms have to adderess those threads. But if you lived in a perfect world a program running ten threads at once And your logic core could handle it effciently. The Compiler would have to translate all those commands at once registers . IN this case the captin of a ship is the compiler. HIS crew is the registers, Bigger the crew the better and long and lean sailors they be, It would take one hell of a compiler to manage this. A command is an issue, sofware are the commands issues are basicly 1/0 Compiler has to be well coded to handle so much so fast . I am 101 computers.

 

[Lord Banshee]

Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
Now a have heard that C2D is 4 issue core Itanium 6 issue cores. K5 was a 4issue RISC runningx86 decoders.
I never ever heard of it referred to as 4 issue core, ... Speaking of issues what is being issued. and where did command come from . If you can't issue a enough commands threw the software ! . Is they why VLIW is good because the commands are longer which makes coding for apps harder. But makes for a simpler processor lower energy use while still giving good performance. Just so much good stuff out their done for X86 ya can't walk away from it.
Elbrus Cpus were Super Scalers . So its.Compilers were written to issue a lot of commands/ translations if you will at the same time.. In righting this soft ware softwear was written to do x86 also .

So now intel has decided to go super scaling with multi cores. Which to work effectively . Needs fast Compilers translating many commands at once to take advantage of all those available threads. . In order to take advantage of the cpu hardware/software . Programms have to adderess those threads. But if you lived in a perfect world a program running ten threads at once And your logic core could handle it effciently. The Compiler would have to translate all those commands at once registers . IN this case the captin of a ship is the compiler. HIS crew is the registers, Bigger the crew the better and long and lean sailors they be, It would take one hell of a compiler to manage this. A command is an issue, sofware are the commands issues are basicly 1/0 Compiler has to be well coded to handle so much so fast . I am 101 computers.

hmmm we get somethings explained here:

The "issues" that you are referring to is the amount of instructions the cpu can "fetch" and "decode" at a given cycle. The Core2Duo is 4, Itanium2 is 6.

CPUs have been SuperScaler more many many many years, this is not anything to do with more cores. SuperScaler is define to fetch and decode more than a single instruction at a time then processed in a pipeline, or something that is very close to this definition.

I am not very up to date with software terms, but a thread is not the same as an instruction. A thread is somewhat like many instructions together, i.e. a sequence of instructions.

Ok now that the facts are given i hope it helps lol

Now about the Nehalem being an EPIC CPU... well that is ridicules, i hope that isn't what you were implying? x86 CPUs are x86 CPU, the complier writes a set of instructions that are x86 instructions. The x86 CPU fetches and decodes these instructions in "hardware". The Itanium2 does all x86 stuff in software the last time i checked. Now back to the x86 CPU, after the instruction is decoded it is the CPUs job to do what ever but if you want to get technical, the x86 instructions are then turned into micro instructions which resemble very much like a RISC instruction set. But the x86 CPUs read x86 instructions and decode them as x86 instructions. I would not call the Itanium a x86 CPU because x86 software works on its system, i would not call my x86 Athlon a ARM CPU because i can run GBA games from my computer with some software called an emulator, would you.

But i do agree with you that compilers are important and they help "A LOT" in getting the best performance from you CPU but this has always been the case, especially since pipeline and SuperScaler CPUs has started 30-40 years ago...

If you think i am wrong about any of these please call me out on it.....

Anyway i hope this post helps