Negotiating a salary... *update*

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
16,843
2
0
If your good they will say yes or not and still offer you the job at the original offer imo.

At my current job I tried to negociate and she came back to me within a few hrs and said management said no. I was okay with that and took the job anyway. No hard feelings :)

If the job has better career prospects take it.

Koing
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
It's hard for me to assess this situation due to the cost of living in CA and not knowing what comparable salaries are in your area. However, it does sound like you're overvaluing yourself given your experience. Truth be told, you don't have the kind of development experience that companies are looking for. Database reporting and analysis isn't anything earth shattering, and one year of experience at anything is only about 0.0001% better than none at a..... especially when it's perl, which - in the grand scheme of things - is not applicable. They were looking for a Java developer and you had ZERO professional experience with it.

In my opinion, they were offering you a golden opportunity to make a little more than your current salary, with fantastic benefits, while you got to learn valuable new skills at their risk.

I think you got greedy. Honestly, you're not the first developer to do this. A lot of people - and I did this, too when I first started - think they're worth a gajillion dollars once they start feeling comfortable in their own skin.

If you can back peddle on this without sounding desperate, do it.

If they call you back and explain that they think their offer was reasonable, tell them you'd like to accept it and explain that you really hadn't taken all factors into consideration when you countered.

I'm a .NET/Java developer/lead and considered a "go-to" guy in my area. The last position I took I was able to negotiate an additional 5%, and honestly, that was pretty tough and they wanted me very badly (said I was the best interview they ever had). The only reason I was able to get that additional 5% is because the original offer was only $2,000 over what I was already making, which in hindsight, they agreed wasn't right.

I'm not saying you should never counter or only counter if you're uber1337 and in high demand, but most of the time people think they're worth a lot more than they are. This is 2006. The tech boom is GONE. But if you're going to counter, you do it because you think the original offer wasn't fair, NOT simply because you want more money. There's a big difference.

I'm responsible for hiring new developers, and I've noticed that once people get a year or two under their belts, they think they're worth as much as someone who's been doing it for ten years. Frankly, I've learned that one year of experience is enough to make someone dangerous. They haven't mastered the ins and outs of production development, but they know enough to be dangerous and over confident. Unless I'm talking to someone who's obviously willing to be "molded" a little bit, I would rather spend an additional $5,000 on someone with 5 years of experience.

Good luck.
 

DT4K

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2002
6,944
3
81
If you had several years of experience and were already making at least 60, then I don't think 70 would be too much to ask for. But you don't and you weren't.
Honestly, I've never heard of a company saying they'll take that long to get back to someone regarding a counter offer. Normally, it would be a matter of the person making the offer needing to think about it and maybe talk to a few other people who are responsible for making the decision. Although I suppose it's possible with a large company that there are more hoops to jump through. But it seems like if that was the case, they would have told you that they want to make it work but have to get approval.

I think you probably asked for too much and now have them reconsidering whether you are the right person or not. Although if they liked you enough, you'd think they'd just say no.
 

Firebot

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2005
1,476
2
0
Originally posted by: jinduy
they basically offer 60k and i ask for 70k and they say they would have to get back to me in a week or two...

the thing is i want ot leave my current job asap (2 week notice of course) as i'm on the brink of getting bombarded with projects

would you guys wait it out or just bite the bullet and take the initial offer?

You were greedy and it probably cost you a good job. Next job application don't try to counteroffer for an insane 10K increase when you don't have the experience to back it up. Right now even if they were willing to listen, the increase was so high that they may feel that even if they raise their offer a bit, your salary expectation was so high that you would be an unproductive and unhappy employee.

What you should have asked is for a modest increase over 60K, but explain that if they cannot provide 63K, that you can take the 60K but in line for a raise after a 6 month performance evaluation.

BTW did you even explain to them why you felt you should be getting 70K, or did you just blurt it out without thinking?
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: chambersc
I wouldn't have counter-offered. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

Why be a pushover? I have countered many offers and gotten at least 50% of what I offered.
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: chambersc
I wouldn't have counter-offered. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

Why be a pushover?

Because, as evidenced by this case, it can cost you jobs. It's not always a matter of being a pushover. And just because you don't ask for more doesn't mean you're a pushover. Maybe the offer was fair. Maybe your idea of "not being a pushover" is to totally overvalue your own worth. Each case warrants specific evaluation. The OP asked for an 8.5% increase over the original offer even though he had no experience with what they needed. Frankly, I'm still scratching my head over why they even offered him the job in the first place. Perhaps it was because developers with actual Java skills in the area make $70k, and they don't have the budget for it.

 

Gulzakar

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
3,074
0
0
Don't worry...they selected you. At the very worst they'll come back with 60k and say (not in the budget).

:)

BUT, I bet they'll offer you around 64k.
 

Triforceofcourage

Platinum Member
Feb 21, 2004
2,911
0
71
For the record I am an accountant and have counter offered with a 10k increase in the salary they offered me. I was offered the job with the increase in salary and turned it down because I felt like the guy would be a dick to work for and if he was already playing these games before I even got to work there how would he be during pay raises and annual bonuses.

Moral of the story, it never hurts to ask for what you think you are worth as long as you actually are worth it.
 

Firebot

Golden Member
Jul 10, 2005
1,476
2
0
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: chambersc
I wouldn't have counter-offered. Don't bite the hand that feeds.

Why be a pushover?

Because, as evidenced by this case, it can cost you jobs. It's not always a matter of being a pushover. And just because you don't ask for more doesn't mean you're a pushover. Maybe the offer was fair. Maybe your idea of "not being a pushover" is to totally overvalue your own worth. Each case warrants specific evaluation. The OP asked for an 8.5% increase over the original offer even though he had no experience with what they needed. Frankly, I'm still scratching my head over why they even offered him the job in the first place. Perhaps it was because developers with actual Java skills in the area make $70k, and they don't have the budget for it.

He actually asked for a 17% increase, which is insane just thinking about it. There's nothing wrong with a counteroffer, as long as you can not only back it up, but show that even at that increase, you are actually a bargain for the employer.
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
16,843
2
0
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Unless I'm talking to someone who's obviously willing to be "molded" a little bit, I would rather spend an additional $5,000 on someone with 5 years of experience.

Good luck.

What guy is willing to take only $5k over a new guy with no or one years experience when that person has 5yrs experience of their own?! Surely they'd ask for more then $5k experience in the first place right? Unless the market in your area has an over abundance of java programmers

Last job I negociated a 43% but I was well under paid for a year so it made up for it. The boss and team saw I did very good work and I'm very proactive in my work ethic. This other graduate was a joker so that made me look so much better :p

I was willing to walk also if I didn't get my range that I negociated and I eventually left anyway for a better job.

You have to be willing to not get the job if you ask for a counter offer.

Koing
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Originally posted by: Gulzakar
Don't worry...they selected you. At the very worst they'll come back with 60k and say (not in the budget).

:)

BUT, I bet they'll offer you around 64k.

Don't count on it. Someone else already said it, but if they told him they'd let him know in a few weeks, that basically means that they've put him in the "last resort" pile. They know that if they bring him in at $60k, he'll likely be unhappy (which = unproductive).

Unless they get desperate, this opportunity is gone. Even if it's not gone, it likely wouldn't be beneficial for either party to go through with it at this point.


Originally posted by: Triforceofcourage
For the record I am an accountant and have counter offered with a 10k increase in the salary they offered me. I was offered the job with the increase in salary and turned it down because I felt like the guy would be a dick to work for and if he was already playing these games before I even got to work there how would he be during pay raises and annual bonuses.

Moral of the story, it never hurts to ask for what you think you are worth as long as you actually are worth it.

Key words, of course. But, you said yourself, why take the job if they're already playing these games? I hate the whole idea of counteroffers. So what if you deserve it. Do you really want to work for a company that doesn't value your skills where the rest of the market does? You might be able to extort the money from them simply because they're in a pinch, but you'll certainly pay for it in the long run. If you squeeze 10% from them now, it will simply come out of your future merit increases.
 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Unless I'm talking to someone who's obviously willing to be "molded" a little bit, I would rather spend an additional $5,000 on someone with 5 years of experience.

Good luck.

What guy is willing to take only $5k over a new guy with no or one years experience when that person has 5yrs experience of their own?! Surely they'd ask for more then $5k experience in the first place right? Unless the market in your area has an over abundance of java programmers

Because the guy with no experience was already about to be paid a lot more than he was worth. $65k for a mid-level Java developer is reasonable. Someone with no Java experience and only a year of development experience is worth $50k - $55k (<- generous).

 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: jbourne77


Key words, of course. But, you said yourself, why take the job if they're already playing these games? I hate the whole idea of counteroffers. So what if you deserve it. Do you really want to work for a company that doesn't value your skills where the rest of the market does? You might be able to extort the money from them simply because they're in a pinch, but you'll certainly pay for it in the long run. If you squeeze 10% from them now, it will simply come out of your future merit increases.

Companies are going to try and get you for as little as they can. It's an economic fact of life. It's in your best interest to prevent that, thus you counteroffer.

In my first job I countered at 8%, got it with little to no experience. In my 2nd job I countered with 10% and got it. This next job will probably place me at my lowest salary to value of any job before, because I am making such a huge leap and into a higher cost of living, which people don't always take into account, thus, I will probably have to counter with something a lot higher and I will probably get it because my value is pretty high to them.

It's not always cut and dry as you make it out to be, to think so is pretty naive.

 

Stuxnet

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2005
8,392
1
0
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

It's not always cut and dry as you make it out to be, to think so is pretty naive.

I agree, which is why I'm saying it's not always wise to counter. Given how often I've been on both sides of the fence, I'd go so far as to say that more often than not, it's not wise... at least not shooting for 10% increases. My posts have been in the context of the OP, not your own personal experiences. In his case, he has no experience and the first offer was quite reasonable. Therefore, the counter was a poor decision.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: LegendKiller

It's not always cut and dry as you make it out to be, to think so is pretty naive.

I agree, which is why I'm saying it's not always wise to counter. Given how often I've been on both sides of the fence, I'd go so far as to say that more often than not, it's not wise... at least not shooting for 10% increases. My posts have been in the context of the OP, not your own personal experiences. In his case, he has no experience and the first offer was quite reasonable. Therefore, the counter was a poor decision.

I have avoided OP perspective since I think it was pretty silly to offer 17% above original offer. I was referring to more general, which I guess we are pretty close on.

If I were him I would have countered maybe a couple Gs but nothing more.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Unless I'm talking to someone who's obviously willing to be "molded" a little bit, I would rather spend an additional $5,000 on someone with 5 years of experience.

Good luck.

What guy is willing to take only $5k over a new guy with no or one years experience when that person has 5yrs experience of their own?! Surely they'd ask for more then $5k experience in the first place right? Unless the market in your area has an over abundance of java programmers

Because the guy with no experience was already about to be paid a lot more than he was worth. $65k for a mid-level Java developer is reasonable. Someone with no Java experience and only a year of development experience is worth $50k - $55k (<- generous).

No man, in LA the market for that position is more like $65k-$100k. We looked for a year for someone like him with a budget of $60k all year and we couldn't find one person. Needless to say we are significantly increasing that for 2007's budget. If we had found someone we wanted and offered at $60k, and he countered fro $70k, we would have gladly taken him at that price.

If you're young and ambitious and you want to work for a growing company, you should reconsider if a company waivers between 60 and 70 for someone they gave an offer to (i.e. someone they want).

To OP: if they come back to you in 2 weeks and agree to 70, I would wait 2 weeks and reject the offer.
 

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Companies are going to try and get you for as little as they can. It's an economic fact of life. It's in your best interest to prevent that, thus you counteroffer.

In my first job I countered at 8%, got it with little to no experience. In my 2nd job I countered with 10% and got it. This next job will probably place me at my lowest salary to value of any job before, because I am making such a huge leap and into a higher cost of living, which people don't always take into account, thus, I will probably have to counter with something a lot higher and I will probably get it because my value is pretty high to them.

It's not always cut and dry as you make it out to be, to think so is pretty naive.

Companies aren't going to try and get YOU for as little as they can... they're going to try and fill the position for as little as they can. Thus, if you counter for more than someone else with equivalent skills will take, you can counter-offer yourself right out of the job.

It's naive to think that only you (and nobody else working for less) can fill that position.

 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Unless I'm talking to someone who's obviously willing to be "molded" a little bit, I would rather spend an additional $5,000 on someone with 5 years of experience.

Good luck.

What guy is willing to take only $5k over a new guy with no or one years experience when that person has 5yrs experience of their own?! Surely they'd ask for more then $5k experience in the first place right? Unless the market in your area has an over abundance of java programmers

Because the guy with no experience was already about to be paid a lot more than he was worth. $65k for a mid-level Java developer is reasonable. Someone with no Java experience and only a year of development experience is worth $50k - $55k (<- generous).

No man, in LA the market for that position is more like $65k-$100k. We looked for a year for someone like him with a budget of $60k all year and we couldn't find one person. Needless to say we are significantly increasing that for 2007's budget. If we had found someone we wanted and offered at $60k, and he countered fro $70k, we would have gladly taken him at that price.

If you're young and ambitious and you want to work for a growing company, you should reconsider if a company waivers between 60 and 70 for someone they gave an offer to (i.e. someone they want).

To OP: if they come back to you in 2 weeks and agree to 70, I would wait 2 weeks and reject the offer.

For someone with NO professional Java experience? Or any professional OOP experience at all? I wouldn't want to hire someone for a Java job if they have no proven experience in it, because I know from experience that some people just really, really suck at Java. Object-oriented programming is more difficult for some than for others.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Companies are going to try and get you for as little as they can. It's an economic fact of life. It's in your best interest to prevent that, thus you counteroffer.

In my first job I countered at 8%, got it with little to no experience. In my 2nd job I countered with 10% and got it. This next job will probably place me at my lowest salary to value of any job before, because I am making such a huge leap and into a higher cost of living, which people don't always take into account, thus, I will probably have to counter with something a lot higher and I will probably get it because my value is pretty high to them.

It's not always cut and dry as you make it out to be, to think so is pretty naive.

Companies aren't going to try and get YOU for as little as they can... they're going to try and fill the position for as little as they can. Thus, if you counter for more than someone else with equivalent skills will take, you can counter-offer yourself right out of the job.

It's naive to think that only you (and nobody else working for less) can fill that position.

No crap buckwheat. My point was that if they want you then they are going to pay you as little as possible.

I am probably going to be in that situation within the next month. Since the place where I may be going has a much higher CoL, I will probably get lowballed. They DO want me and I am their best candidate so far (I have insider knowledge).

They can fill a position with any moron for a cheap price. But if they like you then they will try to get you for as cheap as possible. If you had read my post you could clearly see that this was my train of thought.

 

TreyRandom

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2001
3,346
0
76
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Originally posted by: TreyRandom
Originally posted by: LegendKiller
Companies are going to try and get you for as little as they can. It's an economic fact of life. It's in your best interest to prevent that, thus you counteroffer.

In my first job I countered at 8%, got it with little to no experience. In my 2nd job I countered with 10% and got it. This next job will probably place me at my lowest salary to value of any job before, because I am making such a huge leap and into a higher cost of living, which people don't always take into account, thus, I will probably have to counter with something a lot higher and I will probably get it because my value is pretty high to them.

It's not always cut and dry as you make it out to be, to think so is pretty naive.

Companies aren't going to try and get YOU for as little as they can... they're going to try and fill the position for as little as they can. Thus, if you counter for more than someone else with equivalent skills will take, you can counter-offer yourself right out of the job.

It's naive to think that only you (and nobody else working for less) can fill that position.

No crap buckwheat. My point was that if they want you then they are going to pay you as little as possible.

I am probably going to be in that situation within the next month. Since the place where I may be going has a much higher CoL, I will probably get lowballed. They DO want me and I am their best candidate so far (I have insider knowledge).

They can fill a position with any moron for a cheap price. But if they like you then they will try to get you for as cheap as possible. If you had read my post you could clearly see that this was my train of thought.

I agree that they'll try to pay as little as possible... and that was jbourne's point as well... but you still decided to jump all over him for it and call him naive. If you had read his posts, you could clearly see that this was HIS train of thought as well.
 

Triforceofcourage

Platinum Member
Feb 21, 2004
2,911
0
71
The whole point of this thread is simple, do your research before you ever step foot into an interview and know your market value.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
7
81
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Originally posted by: Koing
Originally posted by: jbourne77
Unless I'm talking to someone who's obviously willing to be "molded" a little bit, I would rather spend an additional $5,000 on someone with 5 years of experience.

Good luck.

What guy is willing to take only $5k over a new guy with no or one years experience when that person has 5yrs experience of their own?! Surely they'd ask for more then $5k experience in the first place right? Unless the market in your area has an over abundance of java programmers

Because the guy with no experience was already about to be paid a lot more than he was worth. $65k for a mid-level Java developer is reasonable. Someone with no Java experience and only a year of development experience is worth $50k - $55k (<- generous).

No man, in LA the market for that position is more like $65k-$100k. We looked for a year for someone like him with a budget of $60k all year and we couldn't find one person. Needless to say we are significantly increasing that for 2007's budget. If we had found someone we wanted and offered at $60k, and he countered fro $70k, we would have gladly taken him at that price.

If you're young and ambitious and you want to work for a growing company, you should reconsider if a company waivers between 60 and 70 for someone they gave an offer to (i.e. someone they want).

To OP: if they come back to you in 2 weeks and agree to 70, I would wait 2 weeks and reject the offer.

For someone with NO professional Java experience? Or any professional OOP experience at all? I wouldn't want to hire someone for a Java job if they have no proven experience in it, because I know from experience that some people just really, really suck at Java. Object-oriented programming is more difficult for some than for others.

the job market in LA is really good right now. still plenty of demand and lack of quality candidates. If OP wanted to, he can get a different job elsewhere for $70k is what i'm trying to say. We pay headhunters tens of thousands of dollars per person for people like him.
 

Zombie

Platinum Member
Dec 8, 1999
2,359
1
71
10 is a little too much to ask for counter offer in your situation.

I have negotiated 5k and that too with 6 yrs exp.