oh the bloody...
bizmark, I think you missed the other side of that blah bla.
So do you think that we created a bad paradigm when we picked up thought? Do you think that we've lost our true essence in doing so? I don't know myself. I agree that many negative things result from our artifices, but I also think that it's a positive advancement in a real sense. A double-edged sword, I guess.
That double edged source allows us direct knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. It gives us language and the power to manipulate our environment, to detach and separate ourselves from it. Because of thought, so much is possible. But more is possible beyond thought, with complete attachment to an environment, with a balance, and according to my limited understanding, with God and Love.
It is not a bad paradigm or as all the years of psych classes may suggest, a misappropriation of fundamental natural drives by maladaptive personality dynamics. Rather it is that our discussion is the chattering of monkeys, of people who are lost and who want to point to some experience that is beyond all rational comprehension and an experience that lies at the heart of human beings. "ignorance is bliss" partially for this reason, and much reading is bad for the eyes. When someone posts what at first glance seems like garbage, perhaps our first tendency to react to garbage as offensive may be the lesson here after all. Learn from Arif.
Of course, this is coming from a chattering monkey, so credibility should be questioned, fo' sheezy.
Cheers !
bizmark, I think you missed the other side of that blah bla.
So do you think that we created a bad paradigm when we picked up thought? Do you think that we've lost our true essence in doing so? I don't know myself. I agree that many negative things result from our artifices, but I also think that it's a positive advancement in a real sense. A double-edged sword, I guess.
That double edged source allows us direct knowledge of good and evil, right and wrong. It gives us language and the power to manipulate our environment, to detach and separate ourselves from it. Because of thought, so much is possible. But more is possible beyond thought, with complete attachment to an environment, with a balance, and according to my limited understanding, with God and Love.
It is not a bad paradigm or as all the years of psych classes may suggest, a misappropriation of fundamental natural drives by maladaptive personality dynamics. Rather it is that our discussion is the chattering of monkeys, of people who are lost and who want to point to some experience that is beyond all rational comprehension and an experience that lies at the heart of human beings. "ignorance is bliss" partially for this reason, and much reading is bad for the eyes. When someone posts what at first glance seems like garbage, perhaps our first tendency to react to garbage as offensive may be the lesson here after all. Learn from Arif.
Of course, this is coming from a chattering monkey, so credibility should be questioned, fo' sheezy.
Cheers !
apoppin, You're welcome. Good luck with your move. That sounds like quite a contrast in environments. The desert is amazingly beautiful when it's not so hot as to be life threatening and has been attributed as a spot where many a mystic has found him,herself, but the coast is rich in those negative ions and has a feel all it's own.
bizmark, don't worry about lawaris or the Instaglib types. Lawaris is all excited about being hit on by a 14 year old. Doubtlessly he's doing most of his thinking right now with that other head.
I do think though that we can suggest that another of the problems one will run into on the way to save the world is ridicule. Over in the 'what do you believe' thread Athanasius mentioned somebody who got crucified for a similar effort.
Anyway you asked some serious questions and I'll give you my opinion, but their just my take on things. When you put a subject like this, when you discuss something that may be more a state of being than factual data, how you talk about it and how it looks at any one time or place can be different. And like you I am only a seeker.
As to abandoning thought: The person I learned the most from in my life said that he had relived his childhood in analysis and discovered that, although he was an extremely successful man and had the best marriage he knew of, that deep inside he hated himself, that we all hate ourselves because we were put down as children and couldn't help believe it. Something happened to him, some sort of experience that transformed him. He had the memories and the relived data to see that he had bought a lie and the lie died. He allowed himself to feel, all the way, how much he hated himself. He collapsed into his feelings and found freedom. He was different than normal people, soft and impossible to hurt. He said he was 99.999% sure he was OK.
Well one of the things he said was that he never thought, when 'feeling it all' was so much richer. You will find similar ideas in Krishnamurti, who deals a great deal with thought as a fragment, fear, a mind trap from which there is no escape within itself, etc. You can easily notice how you think and dwell and hash over and over situations where you feel you've made a fool of yourself, some social of verbal mistake, etc. And I'm talking about thought as for example, knowing that a tree is a photosynthesizing zylum phloem machine, and never experiencing the beauty of the forest. It is my opinion that we are all profoundly cut off from the capacity to feel and precisely because to feel is to remember, to instantly associate the present with the past. Every time we drift towards openness of feeling, we drift toward the time when we were open as children and got cut down. To feel is to remember dying, but before you remember, it feels like you're gonna die now. We're mot talking absolute black and whites here. We all seem to have some small breating tube that keeps alive.
This is where, I think, loss of control gets its punch. It opens the gates of memory. And it's why it feels like suicide. We find out, after a fashion, that we are already dead, that we died a long time ago. The man I was talking about used to say, come on in, the waters fine.
So, if I read your concerns that thought may be positive in some ways I guess I would say that feeling, insight, creative thought, inspiration are of a different type than the kind of dead and deadening thought I was refering to. Thought can be a way to crystalize and express feelings, to communicate and express. I'm not, I guess, so worried about thought informed by a mind that has resolved its emotional issues and is open, can feel. Such a mind has no cunning or duplicitness, no rathionalization or need for it.
Wow. I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. Really 'living' does seem to happen most often when thought is abandoned. But (maybe this is just artificial modern 'sensibility' talking) that really seems scary to me. Sometimes I lie awake at night, because the idea of willfully losing consciousness is so scary to me. (This doesn't happen often.) Consciousness is all that I have. My thoughts prove to me that I'm here and that I'm okay. To willingly give them up is essentially attempting suicide. I'm giving myself up to my environment. I'm losing control, and that's simply anathema. I think this relates to stuff that you've talked about before, i.e. true freedom comes from acknowledging that you have no control over anything, etc. It's an essential question: How can one come to terms with the fact that one's life is a meaningless set of coincidences over which one has no control? How can one acknowledge that death is imminent and inescapable? Of course we all recognize it on an abstract level, but most of us don't live as if we actually believed it, IMO. We put it in the back of our minds as something to deal with later.
So do you think that we created a bad paradigm when we picked up thought? Do you think that we've lost our true essence in doing so? I don't know myself. I agree that many negative things result from our artifices, but I also think that it's a positive advancement in a real sense. A double-edged sword, I guess.
bizmark, don't worry about lawaris or the Instaglib types. Lawaris is all excited about being hit on by a 14 year old. Doubtlessly he's doing most of his thinking right now with that other head.
I do think though that we can suggest that another of the problems one will run into on the way to save the world is ridicule. Over in the 'what do you believe' thread Athanasius mentioned somebody who got crucified for a similar effort.
Anyway you asked some serious questions and I'll give you my opinion, but their just my take on things. When you put a subject like this, when you discuss something that may be more a state of being than factual data, how you talk about it and how it looks at any one time or place can be different. And like you I am only a seeker.
As to abandoning thought: The person I learned the most from in my life said that he had relived his childhood in analysis and discovered that, although he was an extremely successful man and had the best marriage he knew of, that deep inside he hated himself, that we all hate ourselves because we were put down as children and couldn't help believe it. Something happened to him, some sort of experience that transformed him. He had the memories and the relived data to see that he had bought a lie and the lie died. He allowed himself to feel, all the way, how much he hated himself. He collapsed into his feelings and found freedom. He was different than normal people, soft and impossible to hurt. He said he was 99.999% sure he was OK.
Well one of the things he said was that he never thought, when 'feeling it all' was so much richer. You will find similar ideas in Krishnamurti, who deals a great deal with thought as a fragment, fear, a mind trap from which there is no escape within itself, etc. You can easily notice how you think and dwell and hash over and over situations where you feel you've made a fool of yourself, some social of verbal mistake, etc. And I'm talking about thought as for example, knowing that a tree is a photosynthesizing zylum phloem machine, and never experiencing the beauty of the forest. It is my opinion that we are all profoundly cut off from the capacity to feel and precisely because to feel is to remember, to instantly associate the present with the past. Every time we drift towards openness of feeling, we drift toward the time when we were open as children and got cut down. To feel is to remember dying, but before you remember, it feels like you're gonna die now. We're mot talking absolute black and whites here. We all seem to have some small breating tube that keeps alive.
This is where, I think, loss of control gets its punch. It opens the gates of memory. And it's why it feels like suicide. We find out, after a fashion, that we are already dead, that we died a long time ago. The man I was talking about used to say, come on in, the waters fine.
So, if I read your concerns that thought may be positive in some ways I guess I would say that feeling, insight, creative thought, inspiration are of a different type than the kind of dead and deadening thought I was refering to. Thought can be a way to crystalize and express feelings, to communicate and express. I'm not, I guess, so worried about thought informed by a mind that has resolved its emotional issues and is open, can feel. Such a mind has no cunning or duplicitness, no rathionalization or need for it.
Wow. I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. Really 'living' does seem to happen most often when thought is abandoned. But (maybe this is just artificial modern 'sensibility' talking) that really seems scary to me. Sometimes I lie awake at night, because the idea of willfully losing consciousness is so scary to me. (This doesn't happen often.) Consciousness is all that I have. My thoughts prove to me that I'm here and that I'm okay. To willingly give them up is essentially attempting suicide. I'm giving myself up to my environment. I'm losing control, and that's simply anathema. I think this relates to stuff that you've talked about before, i.e. true freedom comes from acknowledging that you have no control over anything, etc. It's an essential question: How can one come to terms with the fact that one's life is a meaningless set of coincidences over which one has no control? How can one acknowledge that death is imminent and inescapable? Of course we all recognize it on an abstract level, but most of us don't live as if we actually believed it, IMO. We put it in the back of our minds as something to deal with later.
So do you think that we created a bad paradigm when we picked up thought? Do you think that we've lost our true essence in doing so? I don't know myself. I agree that many negative things result from our artifices, but I also think that it's a positive advancement in a real sense. A double-edged sword, I guess.
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