Need the doctors of ATOT suggestions... *UPDATE*

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Ok, so Ive had a history of knee injuries, about 5 years ago (freshman year of HS) I tore my lateral miniscus as well as a good portion of my cartiledge in my right knee. I had arthroscopic surgery on it, and it took awhile to heal but eventually did. The doctor said one day when my growth plates stop growing I may want to have reconstructive sugery on it... yatta yatta.


Last night Im outside playing some ball and I jump stop on my knee. I feel the entire thing pop out of place (thats what it used to do) but it seemed more violent than it used to be. (As in more severe maybe?) Anyways, Im sitting here wondering whether or not I should go to the doctor, or I should just wait it out and see if it gets better.

I don't want to go see a doctor if its just a sprain or I pulled a muscle. But if I tore something again, I should definetely see a doctor. I called out of work today, and as expected my boss was a dick about it. Well Im sorry, but I don't feel like hobbling along on one leg all day at work.


Right now my leg is really tight. It seems to be slightly swollen, but its hard to tell. It feels a bit better than yesterday, and I can gingerly put a little weight on it without falling over in pain, but I can by no means walk normal. It hurts to been back and forth, but it seems that when I sit in the hottub for a bit it loosens up a little. It hurt a lot worse this morning than it did last night, and seemed a lot tighter, but as the days gone on it seems to have loosened just a little bit.



So ATOT, what shall I do? Tough it out, hope I can walk on it tomorrow (Ive got final exams and a speech due) or go see the doc. and let him tell me Im a p*ssy and all I did was sprain it.






*UPDATE*


So, I went to the doctor. He told me it could be a couple of different things, ACL tear (partial or full) miniscus tear, cartilidge damage etc. So I had an MRI done. Now MRI results are not always accurate, especially given that fact that Ive had previous surgery on this knee, but they do tell a little atleast.


I called today to find out the results of my MRI and most of it seemed ok. They did mention though a 'high frequency' or something like that around my ACL. Which could mean a tear possibly? Im not really familiar with how MRI's work so could someone explain to me basically what that means?


They also said something about not being able to rule out the possiblity of miniscal damage.


As for my knee right now, its still sore. I can sustain a little more weight on it, and could probably manage walking short distances... although I'd look like an idiot with a very nasty limp. I can extend it nearly completely now, without to much pain. (Slowly of course) Bending it up is still quite difficult and it gets very tight/painful when I come near 90 degrees or more.



So anyways, anyone know anything about how MRI's actually see the injury and what a 'high frequency' might mean?
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
15
81
fobot.com
i vote to see a real doctor


but i didn't stay at a holiday inn express last night, so i might not be the right dude to ask
 

Bryophyte

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
13,430
13
81
You have a history of serious problems with that knee. Play it safe and have it checked out. While you're there, you can get the doctor to write a note for your boss.
 

BullyCanadian

Platinum Member
May 4, 2003
2,026
0
71
Best thing for me to suggest would be to go to a real doctor. The only way to get a proper analysis of what is going on with your knee would be to take an x - ray of it. DO NOT TOUGH IT OUT. Joint problems can become really severe, especially knee problems, causing you trouble for the rest of your life, so please go to a doctor asap.
 

broon

Diamond Member
Jun 5, 2002
3,660
1
81
Go see a doctor. There have been recent advancements in knee surgury. I'm going through a similar problem with my knees. Getting ready to schedule an MRI for a chunk of bone that broke off from the underneath of the kneecap...still floating around in my knee. Call the doctor.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Originally posted by: BullyCanadian
Best thing for me to suggest would be to go to a real doctor. The only way to get a proper analysis of what is going on with your knee would be to take an x - ray of it. DO NOT TOUGH IT OUT. Joint problems can become really severe, especially knee problems, causing you trouble for the rest of your life, so please go to a doctor asap.

Trust me, I know. When I tore my miniscus I didn't see a doctor for like 2 years afterwards (didnt know it was that serious) ended up tearing up my knee even more.

I'll probably go see a doctor tonight if I can get an appointment, the only thing that makes me think its not that severe is the fact that I can hobble on it a little bit. Im not very familiar with tendon tears etc... but would I be able to hobble around and put a little weight on it if it were something severe?
 

Turnpike

Senior member
Oct 30, 2003
222
0
0
Go see the doc as soon as you can. With your history of knee injury and surgery it would be a wise choice. Sounds like you definately banged it up good since it's inflamed and painful to flex. An MRI is the only way to make certain that you didn't tear any ligaments. Some advil or any other ibuprofen should help ease some of the pain if it's uncomfortable. It's really up to you if you want to tough it out through your finals or not.
 

Blastomyces

Banned
Mar 23, 2004
482
0
0
<--- Doctor

Whenever the knee pops out of place it places the the ligaments, menisci, and neurovascular structures at the back of the knee at risk. Since your swelling was slow onset you probably dont have a full ACL or PCL tear, but you may have meniscal damage(does you knee lock when you flex/extend it, do you feel clicking or popping?). You should probably see a doctor and theyll probably take xrays since you're having trouble placing weight on your leg, and give you a proper exam to evaluate for any instability.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
anterrior drawer test to check the ACL.

Did you jump and land and feel it, or were you cutting laterally, or what? Did you hear a "pop"? You say that it felt like your patella "popped" out of place, is there any swelling around the knee cap? Any fluid under your knee cap that wasn't there before? Is your knee cap mobile right now? Can you move it medially or laterally more than you could before?

Basically, more info needed.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Originally posted by: Blastomyces
<--- Doctor

Whenever the knee pops out of place it places the the ligaments, menisci, and neurovascular structures at the back of the knee at risk. Since your swelling was slow onset you probably dont have a full ACL or PCL tear, but you may have meniscal damage(does you knee lock when you flex/extend it, do you feel clicking or popping?). You should probably see a doctor and theyll probably take xrays since you're having trouble placing weight on your leg, and give you a proper exam to evaluate for any instability.

Yea, I kinda remember some of the tests they did last time. It doesn't lock completely, but I can't bend it the full motion that its supposed to. As for the clicking and popping, yes. That has happened to me on a couple of different occassions since I injured it last night. Usually after I leave it in one place for any length of time and then move it. Or lateral motions (such as rolling over at night, agh that hurt!)

 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Originally posted by: kinev
anterrior drawer test to check the ACL.

Did you jump and land and feel it, or were you cutting laterally, or what? Did you hear a "pop"? You say that it felt like your patella "popped" out of place, is there any swelling around the knee cap? Any fluid under your knee cap that wasn't there before? Is your knee cap mobile right now? Can you move it medially or laterally more than you could before?

Basically, more info needed.

Yes, I heard it pop. I basically jump stopped on both legs, and fell. It was a pretty violent pop and I heard and felt it, then layed on the ground for a few minutes. Doesn't seem like I have any movement of the patella, but its hard to tell. Seems like a little bit of swelling around it (maybe fluids?) Medial movement seems to vary from time to time. I guess the movement is a bit better now, but when I woke up it wasn't good. Lateral movement is possible, but painful. And after I move it laterally (medially as well a bit) it is quite a bit more sore and stiffer.
 

Blastomyces

Banned
Mar 23, 2004
482
0
0
Clicking, popping, slow onset of swelling, and painful ROM are fairly classic signs of a meniscal tear. You should head to either your primary doc or urgent care center to get it fully examined and have a f/u with an orthopedic surgeon. Good luck!
 

Blastomyces

Banned
Mar 23, 2004
482
0
0
In the meantime heres some reading for you:


INTRODUCTION ? A torn meniscus is a disruption of the fibrocartilage pads located between the femoral condyles and the tibial plateaus [1]. The medial and lateral meniscus provide shock absorption and play a role in joint lubrication.

Tears are classified as partial or complex; anterior, lateral, or posterior; traumatic or degenerative; and horizontal, vertical, radial, parrot-beak, or bucket handle. Significant tears lead to loss of smooth motion of the knee (locking), knee effusion, and premature osteoarthritis. Meniscal tears may occur in isolation or in association with a medial collateral ligament (MCL) or anterior collateral ligament (ACL) tear [2].

PRESENTATION ? The most common cause of meniscal injury is a twisting injury with the foot fixed; this frequently occurs in football and basketball. Older individuals may have degenerative tear with a history of minimal or no trauma.

The degree of pain at the time of injury is variable; most patients can ambulate after a small tear occurs and may continue to participate in the activity that caused the injury. The acute event is then followed by an insidious onset of pain and swelling over 24 hours. The pain is exacerbated by twisting or pivoting movements. Severe tears are usually associated with more significant pain and early restriction of knee motion. Some patients describe a tearing or popping sensation at the time of injury.

Patients with untreated meniscal tears can present weeks after the injury complaining of popping, locking, catching, and the knee "giving out," or may simply report a vague sense that the knee is not moving properly. This feeling of instability is related to the proprioceptive misinformation that occurs when a fragment (eg, meniscal tear) floats between the two articular surfaces, creating the sensation that the knee is not in the position in which it was anticipated to be. "Locking" is not true locking in the sense of not being able to move at all, but rather reflects the inability to fully extend the knee because of interference from the torn meniscus.

Effusions are common in patients with meniscal injury, particularly with large or complex tears and tears associated with degenerative arthritis. Patients typically complain of stiffness rather than swelling due to the effusion.

DIAGNOSIS ? The symptoms and signs of meniscal tear are often vague and nonspecific; the pain is not well localized or defined. A tentative diagnosis is based upon the history of mechanical catching or locking along with corroborating signs of physical examination. The diagnosis is confirmed by MRI or arthroscopy, although this is not necessary in most patients; the decision to proceed to MRI depends of the patient's age and whether or not surgery is considered. Arthroscopy is the definitive diagnostic and therapeutic test.

Physical examination ? Patients with certain types of meniscal tears can have a completely normal knee examination. Partial tears, horizontal tears, and anterior tears may not produce abnormal knee signs because of their size and anatomic location. These types of tears do not interfere with normal knee mechanics and are therefore less likely to compromise function or cause mechanical locking.

Patients with suspected meniscal injury are examined for:

Loss of passive smooth motion of the knee

Inability to squat or kneel

Palpably popping on the joint line (McMurray maneuver)

Joint effusion


The sensitivity and specificity of these tests for the diagnosis of meniscal injury is highly variable; one meta-analysis concluded that there is little evidence that the diagnosis of meniscal lesions is improved by these physical examination techniques [3]. However, the authors cautioned that these results be interpreted with care since the methods of the majority of studies included in the analysis were flawed. A positive McMurray test result had the most diagnostic significance in this report.

A subsequent literature review found mean estimates of sensitivity and specificity of 52 and 97 percent for the McMurray test (show table 1) [4]. In contrast to the above analysis, this subsequent review found that the overall physical exam showed good sensitivity and specificity for medial (86 and 72 percent, respectively) and lateral (88 and 92 percent, respectively) meniscal pathology (show table 2).

General knee function ? Screening tests for significant meniscal tears begin with an assessment of general knee function.

Gait is observed in order to assess the impact of the knee condition on the ability to ambulate. The patient is asked to walk in the examination room; this can be enhanced by asking the patient to toe and heel walk.

Passive and active flexion and extension of the knee are observed and compared with the opposite side. Loss of smooth motion is consistent with meniscal injury, although is a nonspecific finding.

The patient's ability to squat is observed to assess the flexibility of the knee, quadriceps muscle strength, and the influence of the patient's pain on his or her overall mobility. The patient is asked to squat as far as the pain allows, either performed free standing or holding onto the examination table. Squatting can be impaired by any cause of an effusion, moderate to advanced knee arthritis, injury to the supporting ligaments, and any condition reducing the effective strength of the supporting quadriceps mechanism.

The objective of observing the patient duck waddle is to assess the stability of the knee and ability to perform complex tasks (show picture 1). Duck waddling is virtually impossible with large, complex, vertical, or bucket-handle tears.


McMurray maneuver ? The McMurray maneuver, which involves passive flexion and extension of the knee, is used to assess the smooth motion of the joint (show picture 2). The maneuver should be performed several times. The tibia is internally rotated (relative to the femur) to trap the lateral meniscus and externally rotated to trap the medial meniscus. Full flexion and rotation of the tibia relative to the femur traps either posterior or posterolateral tears of the meniscus. A painful click or popping sensation in early or midextension noted under the examiner's fingers held firmly along the joint line is considered abnormal.

The sensitivity of the McMurray maneuver is limited since the test is incapable of trapping most anterior and anterolateral tears. A literature review found mean estimates of sensitivity and specificity of 52 and 97 percent for diagnosing meniscal tears (show table 1) [4]. Thus, a negative test does not exclude a meniscal tear. As mentioned above, a meta-analysis suggested that a positive test may have the most diagnostic significance of the physical examination maneuvers [3].

Detection of an effusion ? As mentioned above, an effusion may be detected in patients with meniscal tears, particularly large or complex tears and tears associated with degenerative arthritis. There are several ways to evaluate for an effusion (see "Evaluation of the patient with knee pain", section on Detection of an effusion, for a more complete discussion of the physical examination for effusion):

Small effusions (5 to 10 mL) will fill the peripatellar dimples with the knees extended and quadriceps muscles relaxed.

"Milking" the knee detects highly viscous effusions.

The ballottement sign is positive when there is at least 10 to 15 mL of intraarticular fluid.

Large effusions (20 to 30 mL) fill the suprapatellar space.


Knee flexion, as assessed by heel-to-buttock measurement (show picture 3) is also reduced in the presence of an effusion.

Joint aspiration is the definitive test for a knee effusion (show picture 4). Aspiration is indicated if infection is in the differential diagnosis. Joint aspiration may also be considered in patients who have the rapid development of a large effusion (eg, within three hours of injury) to rule out hemarthrosis. Hemarthrosis is unusual in patients with an isolated meniscal tear, and should raise the suspicion of an associated ACL tear or intraarticular fracture [5]. (See "Hemarthrosis").

Radiography ? X-rays of the knee, including sunrise, tunnel, posteroanterior, and lateral views, are appropriate in some patients with suspected meniscal tear. In patients with acute trauma to the knee, the Ottawa Knee Rules have been shown to be nearly 100 percent sensitive and 49 percent specific in the detection of clinically significant fractures (any bone fragment at least 5 mm in breadth or any avulsion fracture associated with complete disruption of tendons or ligaments) [6,7]. These rules state that radiographs of the knee should be obtained after acute injury only in patients who meet one of the following criteria [8]:

Age 55 years

Isolated tenderness of patella (with no other bony tenderness of the knee)

Tenderness at the head of the fibula

Inability to flex the knee to 90 degrees

Inability to bear weight both immediately and in the emergency department for four steps, regardless of limp (ie, unable to transfer weight onto each lower limb two times)


Plain films of the knee may also show degenerative change, calcification of the meniscus, or calcified loose bodies. The tunnel view demonstrates the intercondylar notch and may show a sequestered loose body.

MRI can define the extent and type of meniscal tear, although is usually not necessary unless surgery is being considered (see below). Nevertheless, it is the most sensitive imaging modality for detecting even the most subtle tears, with reported accuracy between 89 and 98 percent [9,10]. The negative predictive value of MRI in the exclusion of meniscal tears has approached 100 percent in some studies [2,11]. However, a subsequent review of the literature found that MRI had somewhat lower sensitivity and specificity for medial (89 and 80 percent, respectively) and lateral (79 and 91 percent, respectively) meniscal pathology (show table 2) [4].

MRI must be interpreted cautiously. Mucinoid degenerative change (increased signal arising from the center of the meniscus) is a common finding. This is a normal part of the aging process of the meniscus and should not be misinterpreted as a traumatic meniscal tear. This problem was illustrated in a study of 74 asymptomatic volunteers without a history of knee injury [12]. The incidence of MRI findings of a meniscal tear increased from 13 percent in individuals under the age of 45 to 36 percent in older patients. Additionally, asymptomatic tears are common in the contralateral knees of patients with symptoms in one knee apparently attributable to a meniscal tear. A study that performed MRI on both knees of 100 patients with unilateral findings suggesting a meniscal tear found that 57 patients had tears on the symptomatic side; of those 57, 36 also had tears on the contralateral side while none of the 43 patients without tears on the symptomatic side had contralateral tears [13].

TREATMENT ? The goals of treatment are:

Define the type and extent of the tear

Strengthen the muscular support of the knee

Determine the need for surgery


The management of meniscal tears depends upon the type of tear (eg, intrasubstance, horizontal, or vertical), the presence of significant mechanical symptoms, and the presence of persistent knee effusion. Small intrasubstance and vertical tears that cause infrequent symptoms and do not interfere with general knee function can be managed medically with rest, activity restriction, and exercises. Large, complex tears that are associated with persistent effusion, tears with frequently disabling symptoms, and vertical tears (in contact with the articular cartilage) should be referred for surgical repair or removal.

Factors that may suggest that conservative therapy is likely to be successful include [14]:

Symptoms develop over 24 to 48 hours after injury (as opposed to immediate)

The patient is able to bear weight

There is minimal swelling

There is full range of movement with pain only at the end of range of motion

Pain on McMurray's test is only in the inner range of flexion


Factors that may suggest that surgery will be required include:

There was a severe twisting injury and activity could not be continued

The knee is locked or motion is severely restricted

Pain on McMurray's test with minimal knee flexion

Presence of an associated ACL tear

Little improvement in symptoms after three weeks of conservative treatment


Acute therapy ? In the absence of hemarthrosis and gross instability, the initial management of meniscal tear includes the following: (See "Patient information: Physical therapy for knee problems")

Restrict activities and all sports. Avoid positions and activities that place excessive pressure on the knee joint until the pain and swelling resolve, including squatting, kneeling, twisting and pivoting, repetitive bending (eg, stairs, getting out of a seated position, clutch and pedal pushing), jogging, jazzercize, swimming using the frog or whip kick, and bicycling.

Apply ice to the knee for 15 minutes every four to six hours with the leg elevated

Encourage the use of crutches if the pain is severe

Prescribe a patellar restraining brace if quadriceps tone is poor and the knee frequently "gives out"


Patients should begin straight leg raising exercises without weights as the pain begins to wane with the goal of strengthening the quadriceps and hamstring muscles to provide support to the joint (show figure 1). Begin with sets of 10 leg lifts and gradually work up to 20 to 25 lifts, each held for 5 seconds. With improvement, weight can be added to the ankle, beginning with a two pound weight (eg, a heavy shoe, fishing weights or coins in a sock, a purse with a book in it) and gradually increase to a weight of 5 to 10 pounds.

Weighted leg lifts with the knee bent can begin if the above do not aggravate knee symptoms. Initially the knee is bent to 30º using weights and repetitions as described above. The amount of bending is gradually increased as tolerated in increments of 30º to 45º to 60º to 90º of bending.

Exercise on equipment such as the stair stepper, stationary bicycle, rowing machine, and universal gym utilizing leg extensions should be avoided until pain and swelling resolve. Exercises to encourage include fast walking, water aerobics, swimming using the crawl stroke, cross-country ski glide machines, soft platform treadmill, and trampoline.

Persistent symptoms ? Patients with symptoms that persist for two to four weeks despite the above should have any persistent effusion aspirated for diagnostic studies and to relieve pain. An MRI should also be obtained if mechanical symptoms and an effusion persist. Corticosteroid injection is recommended only in patients who have osteoarthritis complicated by a degenerative meniscal tear.

Referral ? Consultation with an orthopedic surgeon is considered if patients continue to have an effusion, frequent locking, and disabling symptoms after four to six weeks. Some data suggest that early surgical repair (eg, within three months of injury) improves outcomes compared with later repair [15].

Arthroscopic or open surgery ? The decision to undergo surgery for a meniscal tear depends upon a number of factors:

Frequency of symptoms (eg, daily)

General knee function (eg, unable to squat, unstable knee)

Type of tear (eg, complex tear extending to the articular surface)

Likelihood that leaving it unrepaired may lead to further damage to the articular cartilage


Surgical options include partial or total meniscectomy and repair of the meniscal tear. Open or arthroscopic surgery can be performed. A review that compared these options concluded that a lack of randomized trials precludes an evidence-based recommendation regarding meniscal repair versus excision [16]. Randomized trials have found no evidence of difference in radiological or long term clinical outcomes between arthroscopic and open meniscal surgery, or between total and partial meniscectomy. Partial meniscectomy may be preferable to total removal of the meniscus in terms of recovery and overall functional outcome in the short term.

 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Thanks for the info Blasto, you rock!


Im trying to schedule an appointment with a doctor right now, but the doctors in tampa apparently suck :(

Maybe I'll go see a specialist instead?

Oh, I did have one other question. Something Im slightly confused about. If I tore my meniscus before and had a good portion of it removed (can't remember the exact numbers) is it possible to tear it again? I would assume so, but I thought I didn't have much left to tear... :confused:
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Definitely get your Doc to do an MRI on you. When you say you can't walk on your knee, is it from the pain, or is it from your knee just not holding up?

I've had two knee injuries in football.

In my left knee, I've torn my MCL and Meniscus. I could walk on that knee, its just that I couldn't really even bend it that much. There was really no need for me to go back into the game, so I didn't risk it. Was playing again in 4 weeks, didn't feel like it was fully healed until another 4 months. Yet I could still walk around on it.

8 weeks later, I tore my MCL, ACL, and Meniscus in my right knee (PCL was already strained in that knee when it happened). This was a championship game, so I needed to play this game. If it wasn't for a hinged knee brace, coupled with a hell of a tape job by the trainer, pure adrenaline, and some pain relievers, I wouldn't have been able to go back in the game and play. After about a quarter of more playing, I could not physically walk on my knee. It just buckeled. I needed crutches. Went to the Doc, said I had a bad tear in my MCL, Meniscus, and a semi-serious tear in my ACL. He wanted to give it a few months to see if it could heal naturally since I'm still young. Well it didn't, and I'm going to get knee surgery this summer on it.

So basically what I'm saying is, definitely get this checked out if you can't walk on it through the pain, because thats a MAJOR sign something is wrong. You're MCL and Meniscus don't usually need surgery on them unless it's a very severe tear, but your ACL is a whole different ball game. And if your knee buckels on you when you walk, that's a sign it may be a significant ACL tear.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Normal walk, no. Hobble with a limp, yes. Its not the pain, I can deal with the pain. When I originally tore my meniscus I didn't get it checked out for another 2 years. It 'popped out' a lot, or 'gave out' if you will.
 

BigJ

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
21,330
1
81
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Normal walk, no. Hobble with a limp, yes. Its not the pain, I can deal with the pain. When I originally tore my meniscus I didn't get it checked out for another 2 years. It 'popped out' a lot, or 'gave out' if you will.

When you put pressure on it, does your leg give out and you collapse? That's what I'm really talking about. My friend who completely tore his ACL (coincidentally, not 20 minutes before I tore mine) fell to the ground every time he tried to walk on it.
 

shilala

Lifer
Oct 5, 2004
11,437
1
76
Rub dirt in it and take a lap.
If that doesn't get it for ya, go see a doctor.
Flip a coin.
 

Cuda1447

Lifer
Jul 26, 2002
11,757
0
71
Originally posted by: BigJ
Originally posted by: Cuda1447
Normal walk, no. Hobble with a limp, yes. Its not the pain, I can deal with the pain. When I originally tore my meniscus I didn't get it checked out for another 2 years. It 'popped out' a lot, or 'gave out' if you will.

When you put pressure on it, does your leg give out and you collapse? That's what I'm really talking about. My friend who completely tore his ACL (coincidentally, not 20 minutes before I tore mine) fell to the ground every time he tried to walk on it.

No, I don't think its my ACL though. Ive never had problems with that, i think if anything its my meniscus again.
 

Sukhoi

Elite Member
Dec 5, 1999
15,348
106
106
Where exactly are the MCL, ACL, and PCL? About eight years ago I had my right leg lengthened two inches. Ever since then my right knee has been really weak. Especially the ligament on the inside of my knee. Sometimes that whole side of my knee seems to get out of whack, but I can usually fix it by pounding on it with my fist.