Need some info regarding T1/T3 lines please

[MacaroneePenguin]

Hey. The small office I work for is looking into purchasing a T1 ot T3 line. I'm not really familiar with this type of connection. All I know about it is that it's fast and expensive and that I can get partial lines. I'm trying to research it but I'm not sure where to start or what I need to know about it.

Any help would be great, thanks.

 

[Soybomb]

How much bandwidth do you use and what is your budget? Business DSL services may be more practical for a small office.

 

[spidey07]

What soybomb said.

Also you can get fractional T3s (which are anywere from 3-45 Mbs). Burstible T3 server for 9 mbs costs around 3000 bucks/mo for everything.

 

[ScottMac]

(That would be "Everything" AFTER you purchase the equipment ...) and there'd be a one-time hit for the installation.

T1 = 1.5Mbps , can be delivered in increments of 64Kbps as a "Fractional" T1 (a "Frac-T") or as Frame-Relay (also incremental @ 64K chunks).

A full T3 is 45Megabits (thirty T1's), deliverable in increments of T1-sized chunks (Frac T3). A T3/DS3 requires specific equipment, depending on how it's delivered. T3/DS3 is usually delivered on fiber, to a multiplexor (a "MUX") owned by the provider. From the MUX, a pair of 75ohm coax (like RG/59) deliver the signal to your MUX (breaks out the T1's and maybe even the DS0's (64K chunks), PBX, or router. DS3 Muxes are not cheap - check out Adtran - good stuff, reasonable cheap ("cheap" being a relative term).

SDSL might be a good start, depending on what you need the bandwidth for, and how business critical it is.

Good Luck

Scott

 

[spidey07]

FYI - you can get a T3 CSU built-in to a cisco router. From there you can do whatever you want with a T3. Slice it and dice it baby!

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

hmm... well I dont think the office is going to be willing to spend 3k/month so a full T3 line is out of the question. Looks like we're gonna have to go fractional. DSL is out of the question because there's no service that reaches us there. If I can get speeds as fast as a cable modem I'll be satisfied. I'm not sure how many kb fractions that would be...

I'm in the San Diego area, does anyone recommmend any provider in that area? Also, when I talk to a provider, I don't want to be over-charged or fooled by any of them, so if there's anything that I should know when I purchase the line please let me know that as well.

Thanks for your replies...

 

[spidey07]

you might want to ask again. I find it hard to believe that san diego doesn't have dsl services.

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

Originally posted by: spidey07
FYI - you can get a T3 CSU built-in to a cisco router. From there you can do whatever you want with a T3. Slice it and dice it baby!

How much do those go for? This might be a stupid question but that still means I have to pay monthly for service, right?

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

Originally posted by: ScottMac


T1 = 1.5Mbps , can be delivered in increments of 64Kbps as a "Fractional" T1 (a "Frac-T") or as Frame-Relay (also incremental @ 64K chunks).

SDSL might be a good start, depending on what you need the bandwidth for, and how business critical it is.

Good Luck

Scott

Thanks. What's the difference between frac-T and frame-relay? Any pros/cons between the two? Also, what's SDSL? Is that a different form of DSL? If it is, we don't get DSL up there unfortunately, otherwise we would've gotten that a long time ago.

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

Originally posted by: spidey07
you might want to ask again. I find it hard to believe that san diego doesn't have dsl services.

No, no, they do have it in San Diego, just not yet where the office is. We've already tried...

 

[ScottMac]

The difference between a "T1" or "Fractional T1" (which usually refers to a point-to-point link) and Frame Relay (with a T1 or Fractional T1 "Access Rate") is the signalling and the infrastructure between the two points.

Frame Relay is a technology and infrastructure that allows the provider to use the same infrastructure to service many customers; because the same infrastructure is shared, the cost is (almost always) much cheaper than the same bandwidth in a point-to-point link (which is dedicated media, well, sorta dedicated media - for all intents and purposes, you "own" a pair of copper or fiber from point A to point B).

The nature of Frame Relay also makes it easy for a provider to aggregate multiple sites into a single feed at one or more "main" locations. So, if you had a dozen offices, each could feed the frame-relay cloud at 128K, then a single connection at a T1 access rate at your corporate center can sort all the connections out by virtual circuit (identified by a "DLCI" - Data Link Circuit Identifier).
Depending on the nature of the traffic, some oversubscription is usually tolerated (like 14 or 15 offices @ 128K feeding a single 1.5Mbps ("T1 access rate") circuit back at the corporate office.

The other important parameter to consider when dealing with Frame Relay is the Committed Information Rate (CIR). More-often-than-not, you'll get a T1 acces rate, with a CIR of 512 or 384K. The lower the CIR, the less the circuit is likely to cost. You can get a T1 access rate with a 1.5 Mbps CIR.

There's lots of details, just pay close attention to each vendor's "deals;" find out what kind of Service Level Agreement the y are willing to offer (and what it costs). If you're looking for to do VOIP across a Frame Relay circuit, then pay the few bucks extra for a "high quality" circuit (low or consistant latency) - it'll save you some serious headaches later.

And - since you're looking for providers - have you looked at SBC? They may have a bundle / package (hardware and circuits at a cheaper rate) that'll suit ya. Quest also works that area I believe, and UUnet, SPRINT, probably a bunch of 'em.

Good Luck

Scott

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

thanks for the info, some of it is over my head but I get the idea

I'll check into those providers. What do you recommend for an office that has about 7 computers? It would seem logical and price efficient to get a fractional T1 (frame-relay)?

When I do get the T1 line, is the setup of sharing of the connection (via router, wireless AP and switch) the same as it is with a cable connection?

 

[mboy]

I have about 60 nodes on my LAN, andf like you, too far from the phone co for DSL.

I have a fractional T1 (512K) frame relay at a cost of $650 (would be 50 cheaper if someone didnt sign a 5 year contract with phone co instead of getting the loop from the ISP).
It is adequate for my LAN here, certainly not like my 8mb cable connection at home, but it does the job.

 

[Diaonic]

I work for a school district ( always on a limited budget), i have a 512k frame relay here, 800 per month and it works fine for 250 computers. We should have better, but you have to work with what you got.

 

[mboy]

Originally posted by: Diaonic
I work for a school district ( always on a limited budget), i have a 512k frame relay here, 800 per month and it works fine for 250 computers. We should have better, but you have to work with what you got.

I bet your budget is bigger then the one my company allots

 

[Santa]

My recommendations would be if it is for Internet use to get a Point-to-Point T1 line and not a Frame Relay.

There are hidden Latency's you can not see once you enter the cloud and you don't want to add that delay to an already delayed Internet network.

 

[vi edit]

You should be able to get a T1 run in for ~$500-$600 a month. That fractional price of $650 is outrageous.

Count on spending anywhere from $100-$1000 for install costs, and then another $500-$5,000 for the necessary equipment (router, CSU/DSU card, firewall, ect).

 

[mboy]

Originally posted by: vi_edit
You should be able to get a T1 run in for ~$500-$600 a month. That fractional price of $650 is outrageous.

Count on spending anywhere from $100-$1000 for install costs, and then another $500-$5,000 for the necessary equipment (router, CSU/DSU card, firewall, ect).

My boss locked my company into a 5 year loop from Verizon @ 400/mo (before I STARTED) and she signed them up for 128kb @ 350/mos
I shopped around and got the 512 for 250/mos after I found out what they were paying.
Metro NY area(it aint Iowa), everything costs more here, but my boss allowed my company to get RAPED!!!!! If I got the loop from my ISP, the total would be 600/mos. I am actually at 768Kb now after they screwed something up, I got them to bump it. I was also able to get a Netopia 5300 w/ integrated DSU for 660 from them as well. $2500 for a Sonicwall Pro 200 w/ support and my shitty pay to set everything up

 

[lobadobadingdong]

maybe a dumb question, but a bank in Durant, OK came to me with the exact same problem, they already have a full t1 lease line to their motor bank, but were considereing purchasing a t1(or fractional) pipe to the internet as dsl won't be available for at least another year, I asked them if they tried thier cable internet company, as they often have static address available for businesses, they have 1.5down almost all the time (t1speeds just longer latency) and I think they paid extra to get 640kb upstream, and it's like $90 a month, the just integrated it into thier network through a pix router/firewall and were set to go. It's a lot cheaper than a t1 option if it's available. (btw cable is usually easier to get than dsl, although the latency and broadband in-securities make dsl a preferred way to go.)

If you're going to get a t1(or fractional) ask the phone companies in the area, they often have the best deals since they lease the bandwidth to the other companies anyway, and will usually do all the grunt work for you, many times you don't have to buy the hardware either, they just won't let you touch thier stuff once it's in and working. (earthlink comes to mind)

 

[jbritt1234]

What are the bandwith needs of your company? Are you just needing your employees to be able to surf CNN.com while they are working, or, do you depend on Internet access for your business? If so, what do you need to do with it? I would really doubt you would need a T3. My company has about 12 users that surf and also hosts some web sites and has a Exchange server for about 800 e-mail accounts. We only need a T1.

I take it that you will only have about 7 people on the Net at one time max since that's how many workstations you have. I have another question for you. How many phone lines do you have for your company?

I would suggest looking into what many carriers call a "Integrated T1". Basically both voice and data traffic are on the same T1. On a T1 you have 24 channels. For example say your company has 10 lines for voice. That would leave 14 lines for Data. So you could handle 10 simulaneous calls while surfing the Internet at a respectable speed of 896 Kbps. If you didn't need that many voice lines, say only 4, that would give you 1280 Kbps. BTW that's 64 Kbps per line.

To get a service like this, you would contact your local phone carrors. Not ISP's. Start by calling your current phone provider and finding out if you have a contract with them. Also see if they provide this service. I'll bet you $ that you could save by going with this option. Plus the Phone Co. will provide the router you will need. Just be sure to get a firewall!

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

Originally posted by: jbritt1234
What are the bandwith needs of your company? Are you just needing your employees to be able to surf CNN.com while they are working, or, do you depend on Internet access for your business? If so, what do you need to do with it? I would really doubt you would need a T3. My company has about 12 users that surf and also hosts some web sites and has a Exchange server for about 800 e-mail accounts. We only need a T1.

I take it that you will only have about 7 people on the Net at one time max since that's how many workstations you have. I have another question for you. How many phone lines do you have for your company?

I would suggest looking into what many carriers call a "Integrated T1". Basically both voice and data traffic are on the same T1. On a T1 you have 24 channels. For example say your company has 10 lines for voice. That would leave 14 lines for Data. So you could handle 10 simulaneous calls while surfing the Internet at a respectable speed of 896 Kbps. If you didn't need that many voice lines, say only 4, that would give you 1280 Kbps. BTW that's 64 Kbps per line.

To get a service like this, you would contact your local phone carrors. Not ISP's. Start by calling your current phone provider and finding out if you have a contract with them. Also see if they provide this service. I'll bet you $ that you could save by going with this option. Plus the Phone Co. will provide the router you will need. Just be sure to get a firewall!

We have about 10 computers. It's rare that all of them will be used at the same time for internet. We have 8 voice lines.

I doubt we're going to need T3 or even a dedicated T1. I think we're gonna go with fractional 512k.

We have 8 lines with our carrier. I called our carrier and this is the info that I got. It's gonna be a total of $357. Integrated T1. This includes 16 channels voice/data. $199 one time setup fee. 512k fractional. The firewall is going to be an extra $470 up front for a Netscreen 5XP that supports 10 comps. What do you think?

 

[jbritt1234]

I think that's probably a good choice.

One question though. You say you had 8 lines before. Now you?re going up to 16? If it was me, I would rather have those lines to towards my bandwidth. That's just me though.

The price seems ok, but I would call at least another company or two though. Get some more pricing. Let them know that you are shopping around.

I don't really know anything about Netscreen firewalls... We use Cisco Pix's. It's probably going to cost you a little more and you would have to be familiar with Cisco products. They are not for the novice. But if you can find somebody to configure it for you, they are great. Maybe somebody else can give you a better idea about Netscreen.

Next you get to deal with long-distance companies!!! Fun, fun, fun!!! Tip, string them on a little and most of them will offer you free calling cards as incentive to choose them. Don?t be dishonest or lie... Just act hesitant.... It's fun.... Last time my co. switched, I ended up with over 500 minutes.

 

[Buddha Bart]

What do you recommend for an office that has about 7 computers

Jeez for 7 pc's? You could probably get by on ISDN

bart

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

Originally posted by: Buddha Bart

What do you recommend for an office that has about 7 computers

Jeez for 7 pc's? You could probably get by on ISDN

bart

Won't reach us. The only choice we have is Satellite (which we are using now and sux) or T1/T3 or dailup (ehm, no)

 

[MacaroneePenguin]

Originally posted by: jbritt1234
I think that's probably a good choice.

One question though. You say you had 8 lines before. Now you?re going up to 16? If it was me, I would rather have those lines to towards my bandwidth. That's just me though.

The price seems ok, but I would call at least another company or two though. Get some more pricing. Let them know that you are shopping around.

I don't really know anything about Netscreen firewalls... We use Cisco Pix's. It's probably going to cost you a little more and you would have to be familiar with Cisco products. They are not for the novice. But if you can find somebody to configure it for you, they are great. Maybe somebody else can give you a better idea about Netscreen.

Next you get to deal with long-distance companies!!! Fun, fun, fun!!! Tip, string them on a little and most of them will offer you free calling cards as incentive to choose them. Don?t be dishonest or lie... Just act hesitant.... It's fun.... Last time my co. switched, I ended up with over 500 minutes.

Yeah, You're right I did say 8 lines... maybe I misunderstood that #16 when he gave it to me... I will double-check of course. I will try 1 or 2 more companies, but to be realistic, I think my boss is going to go ahead with that company because they are already our local carrier (he's been with them for 2 years w/o problem) and my boss like simplicity...

heh, my firm already has long-distance carrier too.

Here's some info on the Netscreen firewall http://www.netscreen.com/products/appliances.html#ns5xp_xt I think this is a good time for me to learn about firewalls/VPN's