Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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<------------Lawyer (IP, only licensed in MA, nothing I say here is legal advice and take what I have to say with a grain of salt).
Let me get this straight. Prior to divorce, there was a sallie mae loan in her name only for $7,000. After you got divorced, your ex-wife took out another loan for an additional $9,000, bringing the balance to $16,000.
Before or after the divorce, you told your wife/ex that you would pay down the original $7,000 balance. Subsequent to that time, she took out the additional loan.
How, exactly, did you tell her that you would assume responsibility for the initial loan? Orally? Via e-mail? Via letter?
IMO, you have no responsibility for the additional loan balance under any law I am aware of. Even if your agreement to pay down the original balance is considered a legally enforceable contract, the subsequent loan would be considered a unilateral modification of the contract, for which no legal "consideration" was exchanged. In layman's terms, your wife modified the contract (if one existed) to increase your obligations to her, but did not give you anything in exchange for that modification. As a result, the modification would not be legally binding. At least not under any tenet of contract law I am aware of.
Of course, your state laws may speak to the issue. So don't rely on my comments as legal advice. They might facilitate a discussion you have with an attorney licensed in your state, however.
Let me get this straight. Prior to divorce, there was a sallie mae loan in her name only for $7,000. After you got divorced, your ex-wife took out another loan for an additional $9,000, bringing the balance to $16,000.
Before or after the divorce, you told your wife/ex that you would pay down the original $7,000 balance. Subsequent to that time, she took out the additional loan.
How, exactly, did you tell her that you would assume responsibility for the initial loan? Orally? Via e-mail? Via letter?
IMO, you have no responsibility for the additional loan balance under any law I am aware of. Even if your agreement to pay down the original balance is considered a legally enforceable contract, the subsequent loan would be considered a unilateral modification of the contract, for which no legal "consideration" was exchanged. In layman's terms, your wife modified the contract (if one existed) to increase your obligations to her, but did not give you anything in exchange for that modification. As a result, the modification would not be legally binding. At least not under any tenet of contract law I am aware of.
Of course, your state laws may speak to the issue. So don't rely on my comments as legal advice. They might facilitate a discussion you have with an attorney licensed in your state, however.
Soxfan: thanks for posting!
Yes, you are correct. She added (2) loans to it, think they were for $3k and one for $5k or somewhere in that vicinity, I only looked for a sec the other day.
Anyway...the agreement is in our divorce papers saying that I'll take responsibility of the $7000, as I told her, it was my loan so I have no issues paying it.
I'm just NOT wanting to pay her directly as it'd be a lot of hassle and how would I even prove that I sent her checks? I'd have to send each and everyone certified right? That could turn out really ugly if she was to not accept them or whatever and then sue or whatever she wants to do with it.
Yes, you are correct. She added (2) loans to it, think they were for $3k and one for $5k or somewhere in that vicinity, I only looked for a sec the other day.
Anyway...the agreement is in our divorce papers saying that I'll take responsibility of the $7000, as I told her, it was my loan so I have no issues paying it.
I'm just NOT wanting to pay her directly as it'd be a lot of hassle and how would I even prove that I sent her checks? I'd have to send each and everyone certified right? That could turn out really ugly if she was to not accept them or whatever and then sue or whatever she wants to do with it.
Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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Ok, wait. First you said the initial laon (7k) was in her name. Now you are saying it is in both your name and her name. Which is it?
Either way, to accomplish what you are suggesting here you need to ask Sallie Mae if you can "assume" $7000 of the original debt from your wife. Sallie mae might be interested, but they will likely need to evaluate your creditworthiness and determine if you are an acceptable credit risk.
The moral of the story here is as follows: When you get a divorce, make sure you address any joint financial obligations such that your legal obligations/exposure for the loan is independent from your spouses. Else, you are letting someone who probably hates your guts have personal control over a significant aspect of your finances.
In your situation, the title/mortgage for the house and car should have been signed over to your wife, and the transfer recorded. If the lender for the mortgage and/or car/loan would not accept the modification (from dual borrowers to a single borrower), the house and car should have been sold and the proceeds divided. Any other option leaves you over exposed to financial liability, with very little recourse except (possibly) to sue your ex for damages.
Again, for clarity, nothing I post here is legal advice, and you rely on it at your own risk.
Sorry...Its in JUST her name. I'm/was...on the account to get info on the account and so that I could make changes as needed (since I was the one paying on it).
"If the lender for the mortgage and/or car/loan would not accept the modification (from dual borrowers to a single borrower), the house and car should have been sold and the proceeds divided."
This wasn't possible due to the car having $16k on it and being worth $6k (07' Suzuki) and the house we'd just bought together about 3 months prior @ $80k and she didn't have good enough credit to get it put into her name and we would have had to wait to get it sold if it were even possible. After I left she let it go to hell for the most part and she had gotten some dogs and let them trash the place.
This wasn't possible due to the car having $16k on it and being worth $6k (07' Suzuki) and the house we'd just bought together about 3 months prior @ $80k and she didn't have good enough credit to get it put into her name and we would have had to wait to get it sold if it were even possible. After I left she let it go to hell for the most part and she had gotten some dogs and let them trash the place.
Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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OK, got it.
If you have the divorce papers handy, can you PM me the exact language that specifies that your will take "responsibility" for the $7k? If there is anything in those papers specifying "how" you will take responsibility (i.e., manner of payment, etc.), send me that too.
If your divorce papers don't specify how you must take "responsibility" for the loan, and the understanding is that you are simply obligated to pay down the $7k, I suggest calling sallie mae and explain the situation. I would then ask if there was a manner in which you could be set up as a direct payee on the $7k loan (but NOT any other loan on the account). Sallie Mae may need your ex's written permission for that type of action, but I doubt your ex will disagree to a request that will allow you to pay the loan directly (unless she is incredibly unreasonable). Alternatively, you can indicate to Sallie Mae that you wish to "assume" the $7k loan from your ex. Note that by assuming the loan, you will be directly responsible for the payment of the loan. If you forget to pay, you will be directly on the hook, as opposed to your ex.
If you can't become a direct payee or assume the loan and you have to pay your ex directly, keep a detailed ledger/record of each time you send your ex wife a check. Record the date, time, location you deposited the check, check number, amount, etc. On each check, write "for payment of Sallie Mae Loan number ##########" Monitor your bank statements to ensure that the checks are cashed, and keep a copy of each statement reporting a cashed check.
Good luck. Divorces suck.
Sox
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KLin
Lifer
- Feb 29, 2000
- 30,426
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Yea...I know that a lot of 'ledgering' would go into it if I had to pay her directly which I'd rather not.
I do have the papers, but not with me. I can PM you later tonight, any and all advice is definitely welcome.
I wouldn't put it past her to be unreasonable. She's bi-polar and has had issues in the past (not sure why I married her), we lasted 3yrs somehow. Divorces do suck and I hope I don't go through another...ever! Thanks again.
I do have the papers, but not with me. I can PM you later tonight, any and all advice is definitely welcome.
I wouldn't put it past her to be unreasonable. She's bi-polar and has had issues in the past (not sure why I married her), we lasted 3yrs somehow. Divorces do suck and I hope I don't go through another...ever! Thanks again.
Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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Ah. The proverbial rock and a hard place. Being upside down on a mortgage/car loan is not fun. I'm not sure how to address that particular situation. I'm sure a good divorce lawyer could have found a suitable (although not necessaril ideal) solution.
If it's just in her name, then I'd stop making payments.
I could but she could take me to court and sue...I'm 'pretty' sure.
I'd love to just stick it to her for being a bitch but morally...I don't know that I could anyway. As I said...the loan is my responsibility. It just angers me that she got the extra loan w/o even telling me or giving me a heads up or anything. I'm supposed to feel sorry for her b/c she married some guy w/ 2 kids and had one of her own and now another on the way?? That's not my problem right?
hanoverphist
Diamond Member
- Dec 7, 2006
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looks like shes been very busy lol. 3.5 kids in 2 years.
hopefully the wording in your original decree stated the loan amount, and with your payments thus far as well as documenting future payments well you should be able to prove when you hit your debt limit. if you stop paying and cant prove your loan satisfied, im sure she could go after ya for it.
Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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Based on what you have said so far, I think there is little chance you are responsible for the additional loans for the reasons I previously stated. But the contractual language re: your responsibility for that loan is key.
BTW, are the three Sallie Mae loans still inidividual loans, or have they been consolidated?
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Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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I agree that if the divorce papers expressly identified the loan number and amount, that would be best. But failure to identify the loan amount, number etc. will not necessarily result in the OP being on the hook for the balance beyond $7k. Under contract law, an ambiguity like that is typically resolved by the courts by looking at evidence of the intent of the parties at the time the contract was entered into. It would be a PITA for sure, but the OP presumably could put on evidence establishing that he and his ex only agreed that he would take responsibility for only the original $7k loan.
TwiceOver
Lifer
- Dec 20, 2002
- 13,544
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IANAL
So you were able to call in, get information on, and reset the password of an account that isn't in your name? Wow. Never letting my kids take out student loans there...
From what I understand you should have refinanced all of the loans to clear names on each of the loans. The account is in her name, the debt is hers. Hopefully she refinanced the house and got your name off of it...
So you were able to call in, get information on, and reset the password of an account that isn't in your name? Wow. Never letting my kids take out student loans there...
From what I understand you should have refinanced all of the loans to clear names on each of the loans. The account is in her name, the debt is hers. Hopefully she refinanced the house and got your name off of it...
No..I was previously ON the account b/c as we agreed...I needed the ability to make changes and to hear what the balance was, etc. so she added me to it.
Well...apparently she decided to get another loan which was ADDED to this account but they're separate balances, not entirely sure how it works as I have yet to speak with Sallie on this but it's split out.
I'm sure I'm covered as far as being off the hook for the additional balance as it states that it was for 2/2010 and our divorce was final as of April 08, roughly, so I shouldn't have any responsibilities past that.
The house...I had to file BK in order to get it out of my name. I started filing just before she decided to let it go, I had a premonition and decided I needed to do something drastic, so I did. =/
First off, lets me just start out by pointing out what I think you SHOULD have done when you got divorced: Contact Sallie Mae providing the information for said $7,000.00 loan as well as the property settlement agreement detailing that YOU would be responsible for the loan. I have no way of knowing if your ex would have been difficult about this, but its certainly possible that the lender would have allowed you to sever that loan off of her account so that you could pay it off directly. It's also possible that they would have refused, but now it seems a little late. You could still try it, but I doubt Sallie Mae will even speak to you and your ex doesn't seem happy with you such that she'd be cooperative.
Given your current situation, is there any dispute about the remaining balance? Whether there is or not, if this were me I'd want something in writing from the ex confirming the exact amount that YOU still owe as well as any other terms that she expects you to abide by. Sure, she may be asking for $70 or principal only, but what's to stop her from later claiming thats just what you sent, even though it wasn't the full amount.
As far as proving the money is sent/received: Sure, you can send certified mail if you want to waste upwards of $5 every month....I'm thinking there are probably cheaper services available if you just want to prove the date it was sent and/or received. Then again, you can also just mail the checks and when they're cashed by your ex, well voila there is your proof that it was received. In fact, you could even use money orders if you don't want to deal with the money from your checking account being in limbo. You'd probably also be better off if you sent along some sort of note with each payment showing the date you're sending it, the amount enclosed, and the new balance and make sure that you keep photocopies of the letter. Later, if there's any question about the balance, you have got a nice stack of letters showing exactly how much was paid and how much was left during any given month.
You CAN try to get a loan for the entire amount and just pay her (if you do this you had better make sure you have good records of that payment) but if your credit really is as poor as you say, you're only going to end up with extra interest for yourself. The upside, I suppose, is that you'd be regularly paying off a loan (on time) and utilizing your credit in such a way that could theoretically improve your score.
For what its worth: I am a lawyer, but not where you live, and therefore I can't and won't give you "legal advice". The information here is merely what I would do in a similar circumstance based on common sense and life experiences. If you think you need legal advice, contact a lawyer who is admitted in the State where your divorce papers were filed.
Given your current situation, is there any dispute about the remaining balance? Whether there is or not, if this were me I'd want something in writing from the ex confirming the exact amount that YOU still owe as well as any other terms that she expects you to abide by. Sure, she may be asking for $70 or principal only, but what's to stop her from later claiming thats just what you sent, even though it wasn't the full amount.
As far as proving the money is sent/received: Sure, you can send certified mail if you want to waste upwards of $5 every month....I'm thinking there are probably cheaper services available if you just want to prove the date it was sent and/or received. Then again, you can also just mail the checks and when they're cashed by your ex, well voila there is your proof that it was received. In fact, you could even use money orders if you don't want to deal with the money from your checking account being in limbo. You'd probably also be better off if you sent along some sort of note with each payment showing the date you're sending it, the amount enclosed, and the new balance and make sure that you keep photocopies of the letter. Later, if there's any question about the balance, you have got a nice stack of letters showing exactly how much was paid and how much was left during any given month.
You CAN try to get a loan for the entire amount and just pay her (if you do this you had better make sure you have good records of that payment) but if your credit really is as poor as you say, you're only going to end up with extra interest for yourself. The upside, I suppose, is that you'd be regularly paying off a loan (on time) and utilizing your credit in such a way that could theoretically improve your score.
For what its worth: I am a lawyer, but not where you live, and therefore I can't and won't give you "legal advice". The information here is merely what I would do in a similar circumstance based on common sense and life experiences. If you think you need legal advice, contact a lawyer who is admitted in the State where your divorce papers were filed.
Taughtner:
Yea...I was debating on one other thing actually...maybe I pay Sallie directly and they'd keep up w/ all of the payments and then I could just show it was satisfied if anything ever happened.
I like the loan idea b/c as I said...I AM trying to build my credit back up. I was at a 430 just a few months ago and I've already bounced up to a 572 so I'm on my way. ^_^
Yea...I was debating on one other thing actually...maybe I pay Sallie directly and they'd keep up w/ all of the payments and then I could just show it was satisfied if anything ever happened.
I like the loan idea b/c as I said...I AM trying to build my credit back up. I was at a 430 just a few months ago and I've already bounced up to a 572 so I'm on my way. ^_^
Actually with the economy as shitty as it is, I bet you could contact the lender and just hard line them, "look it was a divorce, I agreed to make the payments, it's my debt and if you cannot transfer it to me I'm just going to let her default on it", you don't have to necessarily mean the threat, but it may save you from a much higher interest rate.
Yea...called SallieMae...they can't do anything for me. The loan has to stay in her name and she'll have all power over it. I'm only 'informational eligible'. What a pickle! ^_^
My lawyer should be calling me back and I'll speak with him to see how he thinks I should proceed with this matter. I also need to look at the exact wording on the divorce papers as I'm not really sure how its worded.
My lawyer should be calling me back and I'll speak with him to see how he thinks I should proceed with this matter. I also need to look at the exact wording on the divorce papers as I'm not really sure how its worded.
Sho'Nuff
Diamond Member
- Jul 12, 2007
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The lender based the original loan on an evaluation of the ex's credit, not the op's. If I were the lender, and the OP took your position, I'd "OK. Fine. Do that." Not as though the OP can force his ex not to pay, and he would still be "responsible" for the loan under the divorce papers, whatever that means.
FWIW, I'm surprised Sallie Mae won't set the OP up as a direct payee. There is a way to do that without giving the OP anything but informational access to the account.
why can't you just enter into a legally binding agreement with your ex-wife? Your ex would agree to let you off the hook on sallie mae, and you would agree to pay monthly payments to your ex-wife until you pay $7,000..
MotionMan
Lifer
- Jan 11, 2006
- 17,124
- 12
- 81
MotionMan says talk to/get a lawyer in your jurisdiction with knowledge of such things.
Anything else is asking for trouble since she is not being reasonable/rational.
MotionMan, Esq.
I'm still waiting to here back from my lawyer (he can be slow at times). =/
I finally got around to pulling the papers out: http://yfrog.com/bfimgosj
It states:
"Petitioner (me) will be solely responsible for and shall hold respondent harmless from, the following debts:
Student loan debt in wife's name, estimated amount owed $12,805"
I've since gotten this reduced to $8k about a year ago and it's now down to around $7k.
I finally got around to pulling the papers out: http://yfrog.com/bfimgosj
It states:
"Petitioner (me) will be solely responsible for and shall hold respondent harmless from, the following debts:
Student loan debt in wife's name, estimated amount owed $12,805"
I've since gotten this reduced to $8k about a year ago and it's now down to around $7k.
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