Need some advice please...

[SaintGeorge]

Hey everyone, this is my first post on the forum, the guys here seem to be a little bit more knowledgable than those in others I use it seems. I need some advice, I'm upgrading soon and need to order everything relatively soon, i've got everything sorted accept for the CPU, RAM and Motherboard down on paper.

I've got a max of about $340 to spend but I don't really want to spend that much if I can avoid it. I live in the UK but am going to spend 2 weeks with a relative in the US in a month, and everything is literally twice as cheap for those living in the US. I want a good high performance system, but it doesn't have to be cutting edge. I don't mind whether it has 256mb or 512mb or RAM and I don't mind overclocking either. I'd like on board sound also. Just need some biggest bang for me bucks advice.

The options I am considering are:

System 1:

P4 1.6a ($153) overclocked to about 2.4ghz or whatever I can acheive, risky - may not be able to ahceive 2.4ghz
Epox 4G4A+ MB ($102)
256mb of branded PC2700 or maybe PC3000 or 3200, hopefully around ($80-85)

System 2

XP1800 (about 95$) overclocked to XP2000 or maybe XP2100 speeds
Decent overclocking socket A motherboard
256mb or 512mb of PC2700 RAM

I realise the P4 system is faster but its going to be quite a bit more expensive. A XP2000 can hold its own against a 2.2ghz Northwood in quite a few situations, so the P4 system may not be that much faster.

I'm completely open to suggestions on everything, i'd especially like to know about overclocking the Athlon XP though, hopefully I could wack a XP1800 up to XP2100 speeds with a good enough MB and HSF. I'm pretty sure I could get something almost as fast as the P4 2.4 solution with AMD for a lot cheaper.

Hope you can help Mark

 

[SupermanCK]

I think that you should have everything set up before you move everything back to UK...so you don't get a DOA and find out you have to send it back...
I like 1.6A...90% o/c above 2.1GHz...plus i know a lot more about Intel since i own one...hahah...but that doesn't apply to you...just my 2 cents...and you have all of us to help you tweak your system...you can also do it with AMD...so it's even...
AMD is too hot...unless you have really good cooling...you probably won't be able to overclock to xp2000+ or above...
btw...you just missed the cheap memory...all the companys out there is jacking up all the prices...so get it real soon...
i would suggest get all you parts soon...so when you are in the US you can set it up the first few days....
HTH

 

[SaintGeorge]

Thanks for the feedback I want to go for the P4 system but I'm just slightly apprehensive about not being able to reach 2.4ghz which is where I want to be. I can see oldfart has such a system on the same MB I want. Also do you know much about ocsystem RAM? Is it any good?

I guess i'll get a few case fans and maybe a new HSF, just for peice of mind, anyone got any suggestions on cheap but good cooling equipment? And also a good PSU that won't cost the earth, I think there no differnce between UK ones and US ones. My laptop is from the US and all I did was rewire the plug and its fine.

Thanks Mark

 

[BuddyAtBzboyz]

Whatever you do get your ram fast prices are already on the rise. I kinda sway towards the p4 system just cause of its potential overclock. However you may not reach 2.4 so you might wanna go with the Athlon system just in case your 1.6a is a crappy overclocker (which is kinda an oxymoron)

 

[Mikki]

Welcome to the forum SaintGeorge! I understand that you're under a budget, and most of this stuff IS cheaper in the States, but not much, it depends where you're shopping. For instance, the P4 2.2b at newegg is currently 274 usd. At overclockers.co.uk, it's 216 bp, or 334 usd (with a 1.55 exchange rate). That's quite a jump, but also consider the international shipping from newegg, and also when you order from a uk site you get it next day. I'm not trying to talk you into either way, I order from both the UK and the States, it depends on the price and how long I'm willing to wait. The other thing about the States is if you have to return something the time period increases dramatically. Just my three cents, HTH

if you browse thru the posts in this forum you'll see that the P4 is the way to go, and I personally thing it's the best price/performance. A year from now I can buy a 2.5 or whatever for cheap, and still have a smokin system. AMD's technology is changing, so if you go AMD you will have to buy a new mobo later on as well as a cpu. So P4's may be a bit more expensive, but they rock right now, and with a careful upgrade, they'll rock later, too. As far as mobo's, I like the Asus boards. You could get a P4 1.6A, Asus P4B533, Corsair XMS3000 (my personal suggestion for a kik-butt system...) for 416 usd. That's over your budget, but it's just an example, going with the Epox board instead would save you 43 usd.

HTH, and welcome again!

 

[BuddyAtBzboyz]

I myself like the 1.6a the best outta all the budget processors. However it is only a budget processor if you overlock if you don't AMD holds that title firmly. As for being able to upgrade longer on the p4 platform, I doubt it, AMD will be keeping the socket a for a while yet. They are going to use hte 32 bit Athlons as their new budget processor. I hear till 2004 but I'm kinda sceptical on that!

 

[gururu]

Don't forget about the new P4 power supply (ATX +12V). Set me back an additional 60 dollars.

You may not hit 2.4. Don't set yourself up for disappointment. If you can be happy with a 2.1 minimum, then the P4 system is my recommendation. Seems that most of the mobos can oc a 1.6A fine.

I paid:
1.6A : 136
abit bg7: 130
512 corsair value select: 145
power supply: 60
arctic silver: 12
total: 483

good luck

gururu

 

[SaintGeorge]

The thing is though the XP2000 can hold its own against a 2.2ghz Northwood and is faster in a few of situations. I feel the need to acheive 2.4ghz to justify not going AMD thats the problem. I could get an XP2000 + MB for less than $200 easily, not a brilliant MB for that matter but one which has solid performance. You don't particularly need a really good mb for AMD as overclocking is not such a big issue. I might look more into overclocking a XP2000. As you can see :

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1574&p=12http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1574&p=12

and here for XP2100 performance:

and http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1605&p=8

The XP2000's performance is only a little bit under that of a 2.2ghz Northwood and I feel I could at least overclock an XP2000 to 2100 speeds. A 1.6a system will cost a lot more however. I can see that the P4 1.6a can easily reach 2.4 on a Epox 4G4A+ which is the mb I want, as the Asus P4533E is expensive if you want the P4533E which is what most people have. I'd like a 2.4ghz Pentium 4 system but I can acheive similar things with a AMD system for a lot less money. I guess i'm questioning whether I need to pay that quite a lot extra for not really that much extra performance. Hmm. The thing is everyone here has 1.6a systems and few people have overclocking experience with AMD XP systems.

Hmm. Any help please would be appreciated

Thanks, Mark

 

[Darkranger]

 

[Darkranger]

Sorry about the empty post, click happy fingers.....

Hi SaintGeorge
I'm also new to this forum, and I find myslef in a similar situation. Looking to do a mjor upgrade and wondering which way to go - AMD or Intel.
I have been following these forums for a couple of weeks to gather as much info as possible, and I agree with you that the ppl here seem to really know there stuff

Anyway here are my thoughts -
From what you have said so far, it looks like you're after maximum bang for buck and the limiting factor is the buck....
so in your position I would go for the AMD setup. This definitely offers you the best price performance ratio in my book at this present time. Also trying to overclock the 1.6A to 2.4 is definitely no easy feat, even though the guys here seem to achieve this whithout to much effort. Also in the current gaming area the AMD does seem to hold it's own against the higher clock P4's - at least the clock speeds youre looking at.....
Play it safe and within the budget - go AMD

Having said that.....
I myself am more convinced that I will go for the Intel setup, simply a case of a bigger budget!
I also like the extra 'stability' (merely my own opinion) offered by an all Intel setup and the fact my system requirements are less gaming oriented and more DV Video edditing and Digital image manipulation. (need absolute 100% stability)From what I have gathered the Northwood has the edge here over an AMD.

But hey, thats my view...

HTH

P.S.
I'm also from the UK and am sick at paying over the odds for most of our hardare compared to the USA.... can't even seem to get the 1.6A here no more, everywhere I looked where sold out

 

[SaintGeorge]

Thanks for the advice man. I'd really like to go for the P4 system but I just don't know, i'll also have to invest in an extra $50 power supply at least, and some case cooling fans too which puts the price for the P4 system up even more. I'm now looking at a total upgrade cost of £430 including case, psu, video card, ram, mb, and cpu.

P4 1.6a CPU = $150
Epox 4G4A+ Mb = $102
256mb PC2700 Decent RAM = $78
500watt PSU from Powamax = $50
Cooling equipment - 2 or 3 decent high CMF large case fans at least = $20
Case = $40 equivalent
Seagate Barracuda 40gig 7200rpm hard disk = $70
Gainward Geforce 4 Ti4200 128mb = $170

Arg.

For an AMD system I don't know what to go for either, whether to get a XP2000 or XP1800 with the high price difference between the two but little performance difference. Whether to go for a cheap motherboard or a good one with better overclocking possibility, but of course AMD don't have as much ocing headroom.

XP1800 is only about $90 and the XP2000 is about $130. Thing is I could go crazy and buy an expensive AMD system instead and overclock that badly with some exta HSF / Fan's malarkey. Theres a guy on some other forums that has a XP1500 running at 1.8ghz (2200+ speeds) Both options are a gamble though, hmm.

I'll look into some major cooling equipment for AMD cpus, im still just as liekly to go for the P4 system though.

Thanks, more advice needed

Mark

 

[SickBeast]

my advice is to go with the p4, things on the amd side just don't overclock well enough. socket a is a dead platform as the hammer will be using something completely different when it comes out at the end of the year. for your video card, get a radeon 8500le, or else a gf4 ti4200. so in a nutshell, my vote is for p4.

 

[BuddyAtBzboyz]

Ok here is my advice. If you need to ask for advice on this subject you are probably better off going with AMD cause you don't know enough about overclocking the p4 1.6A It is really rewarding to get one and get a 800+Mhz overclock. Lets just say it will be cheaper (and stable by the way) for you to go with an Athlong 2000+ for the same price which will whup the p4 1.6A without overclocking. I really don't like recommending overclocking to a newbie.

 

[SaintGeorge]

Hey man the system im running right now I have a celeron 400 running at 550mhz with 83.5mhz memory bus speed. I'm using 66mhz RAM by the way and one of the new school breed of celerons compared to the old 333mhz ones. The chip i've got is not very overclockable at all but i'ved got it stable at 550mmhz which is a good overclock for the chip belive me and it took me a while too. Just cus I don't have many posts in this forum don't mean i'm an ocing newb, just new to the possibility of overclocking a 1.6a. I'm just after some bang for buck advice thats all. I'm not going to go for an Athlon XP2000 though as the price just does not reflect the diffdernce in performance between that and an XP1800.

Still deciding, im looking more into overclocking XP's atm.

Thanks, Mark

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: SaintGeorge
Thanks for the advice man. I'd really like to go for the P4 system but I just don't know, i'll also have to invest in an extra $50 power supply at least, and some case cooling fans too which puts the price for the P4 system up even more. I'm now looking at a total upgrade cost of £430 including case, psu, video card, ram, mb, and cpu.

P4 1.6a CPU = $150
Epox 4G4A+ Mb = $102
256mb PC2700 Decent RAM = $78
500watt PSU from Powamax = $50
Cooling equipment - 2 or 3 decent high CMF large case fans at least = $20
Case = $40 equivalent
Seagate Barracuda 40gig 7200rpm hard disk = $70
Gainward Geforce 4 Ti4200 128mb = $170

Arg.

For an AMD system I don't know what to go for either, whether to get a XP2000 or XP1800 with the high price difference between the two but little performance difference. Whether to go for a cheap motherboard or a good one with better overclocking possibility, but of course AMD don't have as much ocing headroom.

XP1800 is only about $90 and the XP2000 is about $130. Thing is I could go crazy and buy an expensive AMD system instead and overclock that badly with some exta HSF / Fan's malarkey. Theres a guy on some other forums that has a XP1500 running at 1.8ghz (2200+ speeds) Both options are a gamble though, hmm.

I'll look into some major cooling equipment for AMD cpus, im still just as liekly to go for the P4 system though.

Thanks, more advice needed

Mark

Ok, first off, there's no need for a P4 ready PSU (ATX+12v) since the EPoX 4G4A has no 12v connector Second, I can't see any real need for a 500w PSU. You can get a Chieftec case (Antec SX630 clone) from newegg with a 400w PSU for $50. As for the need to hit 2.4GHz, I'm tempted to say that you're almost guaranteed to hit that speed (or higher), and it seems there's about a 90% chance of hitting at least 2.4GHz, but then there's that nagging 10% that can't OC that high As for the RAM, I'd like to know where you can still get 256MB of good quality PC2700 for $78, I paid $87 for 256MB Corsair XMS PC2700 CAS2 2 weeks ago and its $99 now (its now $120 at newegg :Q)

 

[Darkranger]

OK this debate could go on forever - AMD or Intel, but at the end of the day it's your choice!

To try and help with that lets look at this objectively -
Looking at your current setup you won't plan on upgrading this system again any time soon. So where Intel have that advantage in that it looks like the P4 platform will be around longer with a better upgrade path, does this really matter to you?
The AMD will still give you some headroom for later upgrades, and possibly by the time youre looking to your next major upgrade the whole platform situation will have changed yet again.

Trying to overclock the 1.6A to 2.4 still seems to be a risky attempt (still a fair bit of luck involved), and if you fail at this and only hit 2.1 - 2.2 you will most likely be dissapointed in your choice.
Where if you go with the AMD 1800+ and also manage to squeeze some extra juice outa that, the overall performance should be ahead or at least equal to the P4 at 2.1 - 2.2 at considerably less oultlay.

As for spending the cash, the motherboard is the overall most important component of any system. I would personally spend more of the budget on a good quality board than anything else, and AMD boards are again cheaper than an Intel equivalent.

So it looks to me that in your position the AMD is still a better proposition, but it does all come down to money.
If you can stretch your budget that much further for the Intel platform, it should have a longer life span.
And if your confident that you can hit 2.4 then go for it, but in my experience it is better to aim lower with a potential overclock and anything extra is a mjor bonus

IMHO

 

[CrazySaint]

Originally posted by: Darkranger


Trying to overclock the 1.6A to 2.4 still seems to be a risky attempt (still a fair bit of luck involved), and if you fail at this and only hit 2.1 - 2.2 you will most likely be dissapointed in your choice.
Where if you go with the AMD 1800+ and also manage to squeeze some extra juice outa that, the overall performance should be ahead or at least equal to the P4 at 2.1 - 2.2 at considerably less oultlay.

As for spending the cash, the motherboard is the overall most important component of any system. I would personally spend more of the budget on a good quality board than anything else, and AMD boards are again cheaper than an Intel equivalent.

Not necessarily, you can get the EPOX 4G4A for about $90 and the 4G4A+ for about $115. Its a good board, and seems to the OC board of choice. Your point about OC is a good one, SaintGeorge if going to be disappointed if he doesn't hit 2.4, then he might be better off going with an Athlon system.

 

[Darkranger]

I stand corrected on the board prices.

I was using Asus and Abit as my comparison as they do appear cheaper for the equivalent AMD to Intel spec boards, but I see that the EPOX boards are extremly popular and very cheap....

 

[Mikki]

I don't think you would be disappointed with either, and I don't think that should be an issue. I upgraded to a P4 1.6a from a PII 450. At default speed, the 1.6 blew by 450 away, no comparison. And that was using the same hard drive and video card I had in my old system. So if you could only overclock a 1.6 to 2.1 or 2.2, or an XP1800 to 1900, the difference is going to be huge anyway, so saying you would be disappointed if you could only get a 1.6 to 2.1 is not viable since the only thing you have to compare it to is what you have now.

Just my three cents.....

 

[Darkranger]

Good comment and I agree with what you are saying in the jump up.

I was only trying to point out that SaintGeorge might be disapointed if his overclock failed to reach his intended 2.4 and he felt that this performance was below what he could have had from an 1800+ XP.

But hey, as you say - can't complain about either performace over his 550Mhz celeron.....

 

[Mikki]

 

[SaintGeorge]

Thanks for all the responses guys. I'd like to buy that case from newegg someone mentioned, but it'd be hard getting it through an airport in my luggage lol. I'm now going to sit down a look at some benchmarks and see how a 1.6a Oced to 2.4ghz performs against AMD processors. Some AMD chips are very overclockable, with good cooling however.

I'd only be unhappy if I didn't get a 1/6a to 2.4ghz because I could have bought an equivalent system with AMD bits for less money. I really appreciate everyone help btw thanks everyone. I'm going to look at how much a OCed AMD system with the same performance as a 1.6a at 2.4ghz would cost me. The XP2200+ is only a very tiny bit slower than a 2.53ghz P4, so if I could overclock a chip to XP2200+ levels that'd be nice...

Thing is, thouroughbred's aren't bloody availably anywhere, I am yet to see a single site selling anything but the XP2200+ thoroughbreds, are the XP1700-XP1900 versions not coming out anymore or not in the shops yet?

Thx, Mark

 

[Mikki]

Good luck in your decision, most of these threads turn into an AMD vs Intel discussion (though not as bad as other forums) and I try to stay out of them. I've already stated my opinion, just wanted to say that I just went thru this. I did two months of research, picked my stuff, started talking to the folks in these forums, and eventually changed my decisions due to various reasons. The cool thing about these kind of threads is that you hear stuff you may not have thought of. I went Intel and don't regret it one bit as my AMD friends have, but our reasons are different from everyone else's. I could care less about the companies, a processor is a processor, I don't care who makes it. I wanted a top performer with lot's of flexability both in performance and upgradeability, money wasn't an issue. So you see, my criteria is different from yours, ultimately it's your decision. Good luck, look forward to hearing your results!

 

[Darkranger]

Excellent comments Mikki, you have echoed my thoughts exactly.

This is also the current situation I find myself in, about to upgrade my setup from the ground up and cost is not really an issue (within limits of course).
I too have spent some weeks gathering info and researching the current platforms for AMD and Intel.
I am pretty sure at this point my decision will go with Intel but I would appreicate hearing your reasons for making that choice.
As you say -

The cool thing about these kind of threads is that you hear stuff you may not have thought of.

Thx

 

[SaintGeorge]

I'd really like to know the overclocking potential of a XP1800 with some serious cooling. I'm considering a Thermalright SLK-800 heat sink with a 84cmf 80mm x 80mm VantecTornado Fan on it, with 3 120mm Delta 78cmf case fans, all with a cost of almost $100.

This sort of cooling would put the cost of the system on par with the P4 system im considering. If I could reach XP2200 speeds (someone has done it on a XP1500) then it'd be faster than a P4 2.4ghz Northwood.

I'd really like to get some sorf of gauge on the possible overclocking potential with this sort of cooling, but I don't seem to be able to get an opinion anywhere. If you know or know someone who does have any idea what this could acheive then I'd be very gratefull. Hmm, I wonder if I could RMA the Cooling stuff if I don't get a good oc, and just keep the stock HSF.

Please anyone got any idea what sort of potential a system like this has? Not many people seem to have expirience overclocking XP's thats the problem.

Thanks, Mark