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oznerol

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2002
2,476
0
76
www.lorenzoisawesome.com
Originally posted by: Compnewbie01
Once again, thanks for the help. Are there any people here that could describe what they do at their job and whether or not they like it?

I graduated with an EE degree in May, finally got a job in September. Started October 2nd. I wrote this today, ironically. Also, because I'm bored at work:

I?ve been working as a ?real? engineer for over a month now, and already I?ve been exposed to the job?s dark underbelly. Growing up, I had this vision of an engineer being this glamorous profession where you solve all the world?s problems and design fancy new gadgets. It is totally not like that and it is disappointing.

Engineering students are, in fact, elitist assholes. I would know as I was one of them. It?s mainly out of jealousy seeing all of the liberal arts majors take 10 hours of classes a semester and party all the time. This is understandable. But I must stress that, while engineering students are cool, engineers? not so much. The difference is much like being in a band and being in the band.

So if you are an engineering student, or if you aspire to one day be an engineer, or if you just get impressed whenever someone tells you they are an engineer, here are some things I?ve picked up along the way to bring you back to reality:

Engineering isn?t glamorous
You?re typically in a cubicle or a lab all day. It greatly depends on where you work, but for most places, the projects you work on are anything but spectacular and life-changing. They are moderately interesting, at best, and that is really only to people who don?t know anything about what you are doing.

Engineering isn?t as high-paying as many people believe
As a student, you get these big entry-level salaries thrown in your face by colleges, encouraging you to be an engineer. Hell, even on the CNN ?most profitable careers? listing, engineers make up something like 6 of the top 10 for entry-level salaries. This is somewhat true, but it has a bias - there are far more engineers than entry-level engineering jobs. So when they average the salaries, they omit the 50% of recent graduates who either don?t have a job at all or who take jobs outside of their field. In fact, the bulk of entry-level engineering jobs are for Test Engineering, or QA, both of which are much lower paying than say, an Electrical Engineer I.

The trick to those high salaries is to get an internship for a large company - Intel, IBM, GE, etc. That way, when you graduate, your college will look at you as still being entry-level, but the company will look at you as having a year+ experience, and will pay you accordingly. This skews the salary listings a great deal.

I won?t disagree, however, that entry-level engineers get paid more than most other jobs - the problem is it plateaus relatively quickly. Management gets paid far more than engineers, and ultimately are less knowledgeable and do less work. Granted, an engineer could work up to management, but that typically requires an MBA, plus it?s slightly disheartening that the ones who are actually creating the product are paid less than the ones organizing them.

Engineers love acronyms
This is something I learned my first day on the job. It is insane how many acronyms are used on a daily basis - I have honestly been a part of a conversation where I had absolutely no idea whatsoever what was being said. It sounds like, ?So, did you check the ATE spec for UGM? The sent out an ECN to fix the HLO, so we?re going to have to change the VCC before the CDR.? It is seriously like a foreign language, and what is funny is that they expect you to know what the hell is going on.

I mean, I know saying SSSU is far easier than always saying Solid State Storage Unit, but when you string like nineteen acronyms together in one sentence, it?s tough to keep up. It has reached a point where there is a two-page section in the product specification dedicated to just the acronyms and abbreviations.

Project Management is clueless
I said I?ve only been here a bit over a month, but this fact was blatanly clear to me at my first meeting. They might be good at maintaining schedules and meeting deadlines, but when it comes to tackling a technical problem, watch out. I was actually cracking up in one of my more recent meetings, as I was sitting next to my project manager, and as one of the other engineers was explaining his ideas for the project, the project manager was - literally - repeating everything that was being said.

Engineer: ?We should be able to handle this with an A/B switch.?
Project Manager: ?Yes, an A/B switch.?
Engineer: ?Also, I don?t see why a single RS232 port can?t be used.?
Project Manager: ?Can?t we try a single RS232 port??
etc, etc?

This went on for about five minutes. Hilarious.

Explaining what you do is impossible
Acronyms aside, attempting to tell people what you are working on or what exactly you do - without making them feel like a retard or getting bored out of their minds - is impossible. Don?t even try. Just say you?re an engineer, and you work on ?important projects.? If they ask for details, either tell them it?s classified, or immediately change the subject.

Also note, nothing an engineer does for a living will ever impress girls.
 

TuxDave

Lifer
Oct 8, 2002
10,571
3
71
Originally posted by: Compnewbie01

Originally posted by: Xstatic1
i think the ppl who mentioned biology are giving u pearls of wisdom. if u want to truly be in the enginering field, go for biomedical engineering.

Is there a reason for that though?

Yeah.. cuz it's easy. Bunch of wimps.. pfft.... :p
 

ngvepforever2

Golden Member
Oct 19, 2003
1,269
0
0
Originally posted by: evident
stay in your CPE program, dont switch to CS. If you are in a good university your CPE classes should teach you all the concepts normally taught in CS and more. CS majors in my school don't even touch any assembly, let alone know how anything works below third level programming languages (java, c++). As a CPE major at my university, I learned all the basics of circuits (EE) logic gates, boolean algebra (very very low level math that pertains to assembly that every programmer needs to know) and assembly, as well as object oriented high level programming as well. This gives you the whole picture of what you want to do and lets you be very flexible with your job out of college.

one thing though, you have to actually like this stuff or at least find it interesting, or it can get dull very quick!!

Well that is not true, In my school I had to take 3 assembly classes and a digital design of circuits class with a Lab. I actually know quite a few computer engineering majors who think they know as much as I do about programming. Like you mentioned in your post, they say "Oh I know object oriented programming". OOP is something a good CS student learns his first semester and never forgets. The rest of our years in school are basically spent learning a huge amount of algorithms in different classes (first the easy ones in a sophomore data structure class, then the hard and fun ones in a senior level algorithm analysis class), as well as a variety of elective classes in which hopefully we get to learn something useful when we are out of college (in my case Database Design, Computer Graphics, Computer Networking, Artificial Intelligence). It's true though that a good Computer Engineer shouldn't have any problem switching to software engineering. But if they don't have any experience beforehand and they think that everything outside is a OOP, the learning curve will be big.

Just my 2 cents
Regards

ng

PS: For the OP, coding is necessary for Computer Engineers as far as I know. The C language is normally used as a weed out class in college for people who are not cut out for that major (Don't give up though, C can be a pain in the ass, there is a reason why is an engineering class...you have to study hard, if you don't like this then you are really not cut out for that major).
 

Special K

Diamond Member
Jun 18, 2000
7,098
0
76
Just to play devil's advocate a bit, I'm going to try and reply to some of this. FWIW, I'm a grad student at a top 10 EE program and am currently in the process of interviewing for jobs. I have a fear my situation could turn out bad like what you are describing, but it's hard to say since I haven't worked yet. If nothing else, I can always go back to school and pick something else if engineering doesn't work out for me.

Originally posted by: ducci

I graduated with an EE degree in May, finally got a job in September. Started October 2nd. I wrote this today, ironically. Also, because I'm bored at work:

I?ve been working as a ?real? engineer for over a month now, and already I?ve been exposed to the job?s dark underbelly. Growing up, I had this vision of an engineer being this glamorous profession where you solve all the world?s problems and design fancy new gadgets. It is totally not like that and it is disappointing.

Engineering students are, in fact, elitist assholes. I would know as I was one of them. It?s mainly out of jealousy seeing all of the liberal arts majors take 10 hours of classes a semester and party all the time. This is understandable. But I must stress that, while engineering students are cool, engineers? not so much. The difference is much like being in a band and being in the band.

So if you are an engineering student, or if you aspire to one day be an engineer, or if you just get impressed whenever someone tells you they are an engineer, here are some things I?ve picked up along the way to bring you back to reality:

Engineering isn?t glamorous
You?re typically in a cubicle or a lab all day. It greatly depends on where you work, but for most places, the projects you work on are anything but spectacular and life-changing. They are moderately interesting, at best, and that is really only to people who don?t know anything about what you are doing.

What is a "glamorous" job? A pro athlete or movie star? Lots of jobs will have you working in a cubicle all day. I suppose what you will be working on will depend on the company you work for. I am trying to get a job doing IC design for Intel, AMD, etc. While I wouldn't call the projects there "life-changing", I would think they are pretty significant, considering 99+% of the world uses a chip made by them.

Originally posted by: ducci
Engineering isn?t as high-paying as many people believe
As a student, you get these big entry-level salaries thrown in your face by colleges, encouraging you to be an engineer. Hell, even on the CNN ?most profitable careers? listing, engineers make up something like 6 of the top 10 for entry-level salaries. This is somewhat true, but it has a bias - there are far more engineers than entry-level engineering jobs. So when they average the salaries, they omit the 50% of recent graduates who either don?t have a job at all or who take jobs outside of their field. In fact, the bulk of entry-level engineering jobs are for Test Engineering, or QA, both of which are much lower paying than say, an Electrical Engineer I.

The trick to those high salaries is to get an internship for a large company - Intel, IBM, GE, etc. That way, when you graduate, your college will look at you as still being entry-level, but the company will look at you as having a year+ experience, and will pay you accordingly. This skews the salary listings a great deal.

I won?t disagree, however, that entry-level engineers get paid more than most other jobs - the problem is it plateaus relatively quickly. Management gets paid far more than engineers, and ultimately are less knowledgeable and do less work. Granted, an engineer could work up to management, but that typically requires an MBA, plus it?s slightly disheartening that the ones who are actually creating the product are paid less than the ones organizing them.

First of all - if you don't want to be one of those 50% (btw, where did you get these numbers?) who don't have a job or are working something else, maybe you should have gone to a better engineering school or tried harder in the school you were at.

I haven't gotten any offer decisions back yet, so I can't comment on your first 2 paragraphs, although I will say that the jobs I interviewed for were NOT entry level technician type jobs.

As to your last paragraph, I think you are wrong based on the companies I have talked to. At Intel and Micron for example, the management and engineering tracks both have the exact same pay scale and max salary. To move higher, you would have to advance into a VP level position.

Your statement about managers getting paid far more is also not true in general. When I interviewed at Micron, they told me that there were many instances in which a highly skilled technical person was managed by someone who made far less than they did.

Originally posted by: ducci
Engineers love acronyms
This is something I learned my first day on the job. It is insane how many acronyms are used on a daily basis - I have honestly been a part of a conversation where I had absolutely no idea whatsoever what was being said. It sounds like, ?So, did you check the ATE spec for UGM? The sent out an ECN to fix the HLO, so we?re going to have to change the VCC before the CDR.? It is seriously like a foreign language, and what is funny is that they expect you to know what the hell is going on.

I mean, I know saying SSSU is far easier than always saying Solid State Storage Unit, but when you string like nineteen acronyms together in one sentence, it?s tough to keep up. It has reached a point where there is a two-page section in the product specification dedicated to just the acronyms and abbreviations.

Well, would you rather they spell everything out every time? I think any scientific or technical field is going to have its fair share of acronyms and techical terms. Just look at any medical report to see all the jargon doctors use.

Originally posted by: ducci
Project Management is clueless
I said I?ve only been here a bit over a month, but this fact was blatanly clear to me at my first meeting. They might be good at maintaining schedules and meeting deadlines, but when it comes to tackling a technical problem, watch out. I was actually cracking up in one of my more recent meetings, as I was sitting next to my project manager, and as one of the other engineers was explaining his ideas for the project, the project manager was - literally - repeating everything that was being said.

Engineer: ?We should be able to handle this with an A/B switch.?
Project Manager: ?Yes, an A/B switch.?
Engineer: ?Also, I don?t see why a single RS232 port can?t be used.?
Project Manager: ?Can?t we try a single RS232 port??
etc, etc?

This went on for about five minutes. Hilarious.

I've only had internships so far so I can't really comment on this one. However, in the companies I interviewed with, they said most of the managers were also engineers, so you would expect them to have technical competence.

Originally posted by: ducci
Explaining what you do is impossible
Acronyms aside, attempting to tell people what you are working on or what exactly you do - without making them feel like a retard or getting bored out of their minds - is impossible. Don?t even try. Just say you?re an engineer, and you work on ?important projects.? If they ask for details, either tell them it?s classified, or immediately change the subject.

Also note, nothing an engineer does for a living will ever impress girls.

I'll agree to this one - I just tell people I design computer chips, and leave it at that. As to your last point, I suppose that would depend on the girl. And tell me, what type of job does impress girls? Am I supposed to pick my career based on what I think a girl mightl like? Besides, if you are with someone because of their career, I think you have other issues.

The bottom line is, I think all of the points you made are highly dependent on the company you work for, and should not be used as a basis to judge an entire profession. You can find people in any profession who hate their jobs. Maybe there are a lot of outspoken engineering-haters on AT just because a good majority of the people on here are engineers to begin with?

OP - send a pm to pm (yes, his name on here is pm). He has been an engineer at Intel for a long time and has pretty positive things to say about it. I think it might help you get a different perspective to help make a better decision.
 

LS20

Banned
Jan 22, 2002
5,858
0
0
Originally posted by: ducci
Engineering isn?t glamorous
what is?
Engineering isn?t as high-paying as many people believe
generally, highest entry level
Project Management is clueless
PMs are former engineers.
Engineers love acronyms
point?
Also note, nothing an engineer does for a living will ever impress girls.
different type of problem


anyways. so lets get this off the bat: do what you love and love what you do. if you dont like math, or engineering, get out.

money shouldnt matter... that much... but people care. so lets talk about that: engineers typically make the most out of school; thats well accepted. as far as career and salary progression goes, in a large corporation, you can do whatever you want. yes - thats right. short of engineers going into accounting (and vice-versa), there should be no restrictions. with experience and dedication anyone can get into a management track. manage sales account..manage HR.. manage product development... its all the same sht.

imagine the corporate world is a triangle.. it tapers towards top and condenses to the same sht. a college degree doesnt determine your path up through the triangle. a degree is a ticket that places you somewhere along the base.. whether it be marketing or finance or communications or science or engineering. your development and progression is limited only by your personality, drive, and skills.. in short: your capacity.

as far as the bottom triangle goes, the best entry is with an engineering degree. where you go after that is up to you

 

AbsolutDealage

Platinum Member
Dec 20, 2002
2,675
0
0
Originally posted by: LS20
Project Management is clueless
PMs are former engineers.

Not here they aren't.

Anyways... OP:

If you really aren't in to coding, I would steer away from CPE. As stated above, generally everything in the field involves coding on some level. If you want to steer more towards the electrical track, then get a EE. That way you can steer into power/embedded/etc., which doesn't rely on coding.

 

LS20

Banned
Jan 22, 2002
5,858
0
0
Originally posted by: AbsolutDealage


Not here they aren't.

youve got a jacked up workplace. who is best to manage projects than those who have worked on them before? this is the typical progression for engineers regardless of industry...
 

oznerol

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2002
2,476
0
76
www.lorenzoisawesome.com
Originally posted by: Special K
Just to play devil's advocate a bit, I'm going to try and reply to some of this. FWIW, I'm a grad student at a top 10 EE program and am currently in the process of interviewing for jobs. I have a fear my situation could turn out bad like what you are describing, but it's hard to say since I haven't worked yet. If nothing else, I can always go back to school and pick something else if engineering doesn't work out for me.

Whoa, I wasn't expecting a dissection of my rant. And I definitely wasn't bashing engineers or engineering - I'm just saying the job is rarely what students going into engineering expect it to be.

When I say engineering isn't "glamorous," I only meant it's not compared to how many students (myself included), envision engineering proffessions to be. When I decided to become an engineering major, I wanted to change the world and design fancy new gadgets and be creative. "Real" engineering is rarely any of that, especially the creativity aspect of it.

Oftentimes kids think that because they like technology (like Ipods and X-Boxes and Intel processors), that they should be an engineer because engineers design and build these things. That is typically an illusion, and more often than not, engineers are really restricted, if allowed at all, to be creative. We are given a spec requirement, and need to meet it, and typically cost is the main concern, not intuitiveness (if that is even a word).

You want an IC design job for a big chip manufacturer - good for you, and good luck with that. Those positions are rare, and are usually given to the best and brightest (or those who have an in with the company). If that includes you, then excellent - and like I said, to get paid a lot you should intern at these places - which is also a rare opportunity. And all of that aside - the entry-level positions at those places are not much different than anywhere else - you're not going to get thrown into IC design - you're going to have to do the grunt work and work your way up.

Plus, I said the majority of entry-level jobs available to engineers are for testing and QA. I didn't say they were the only ones, nor did I say you had to apply for them.

I made up whatever numbers I posted as I wasn't writing a thesis paper. It was actually intended to be more funny than anything else. Also note - you are a grad student - you typically won't get put into entry-level positions, as companies will look at your graduate work as valid experience. My job is with a BS, only.

And you got defensive about me joking about acronym use? Christ, you must be an engineer.
 

oznerol

Platinum Member
Apr 29, 2002
2,476
0
76
www.lorenzoisawesome.com
And for the record, I got an EE degree from Boston University - mediocre GPA at best - and it took me some time, but I got a decent job working for a military contractor which pays a bit above the average entry-level EE salary from CNN.

I am EE, but I enjoy working with embedded systems - mainly programming - so I am working as an engineer in the software department here. I code (C/C++), and get a lot of the testing "bitch work." I'm also given some documentation to write, just more stuff the higher ups don't want to do.

My suggestion to the OP - go to work after your BS, don't get your MS. A lot of companies (including mine), will pay for your MS degree so long as you keep above a certain GPA (it's a C for me).

This way you don't need to go further into debt, get practical experience, and don't commit to getting an engineering masters. If you decide you want to be one of the high-up engineering gurus, then you're going to need a masters in engineering. If you find that that isn't you, you can go for your MBA and work into project management.
 

tfinch2

Lifer
Feb 3, 2004
22,114
1
0
Originally posted by: evident
stay in your CPE program, dont switch to CS. If you are in a good university your CPE classes should teach you all the concepts normally taught in CS and more. CS majors in my school don't even touch any assembly, let alone know how anything works below third level programming languages (java, c++). As a CPE major at my university, I learned all the basics of circuits (EE) logic gates, boolean algebra (very very low level math that pertains to assembly that every programmer needs to know) and assembly, as well as object oriented high level programming as well. This gives you the whole picture of what you want to do and lets you be very flexible with your job out of college.

one thing though, you have to actually like this stuff or at least find it interesting, or it can get dull very quick!!

How can a CS program not teach architecture or assembly? What ass-backward school is this?
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
17,555
1
0
ducci's experiences are exactly why I will never use my engineering degrees for what it says on the diploma...:p
 

A5

Diamond Member
Jun 9, 2000
4,902
5
81
Originally posted by: beer
Originally posted by: Compnewbie01
Well so far we have had to learn C which I am not liking at all. I want to stay far far away from coding if at all possible. I need to know if coding is a big part of all CPE jobs or if there is more to it.

Uhh, you might want to consider your choice of major. CpE in all forms IS some type of coding, whether it's RTL, VHDL, C, or Java or matlab...

Yeah. If you hate programming, you need to switch to EE(with a power or analog circuits specialty) as soon as possible. C is probably the least of a pain-in-the-ass of the languages CPEs work with on a regular basis.